Brawl Minus 4.0 Changelog Preview!

[Thor]

It's funny because if you nerf Ganondorf's throws [all of them], he still has side+B, which is an automatic guaranteed 50-50 at all percents [fsmash covers behind him, wiz kick covers all the other options (and for some, fsmash too)], and his up+B will KO offstage at like 45% [risky to go for though].

I'm not saying that justifies KO throws, but people would just start doing that even if all his normal grabs sucked, and I guess devs wanted him to have useful throws.

I'm fine with his throws KOing ~30% later [from memory that would be fair but still leave him with useful throws], but it seems fitting that the King of Evil can grab and discard his [would-be] subjects so easily. *shrugs* I think there are things more worth nerfing or buffing, but if they hit his throws I wouldn't be horribly mad or anything, I just... don't think they need it.

 

[Gold_TSG]

If it ain't Melee Sheik, don't fix it.

 

[Bent 00]

You want to know something else that's obnoxious? The Cancel on Luigi's Dash Attack. Way too spammable and safe. Looks weird in action, too.

 

[Mawootad]

Labbed ICs an hour or so. Haven't found anything obviously OP yet... but being able to make Blizzard and D-Smash slide around, and Blizzard being Grab-Cancellable? Those things seem like they would be too easy to spam, making ICs annoying to play against. I'm not a fan of giving ground moves that are normally stationary the ability to slide around freely (just looks weird to me). Having a Grab Cancel on Blizzard makes it a guaranteed Grab at lower percents, and Popo can throw out Blizzards to cover a follow-up aerial by Nana.

Should I make a separate thread for this?

If you think there's a fair amount of discussion to be had, go for it, but not really much need to otherwise. Ice Climbers are mostly held back by their extremely high skill floor coupled with significant vulnerability to Nana being stupid (I have literally won games against Ice Climbers because Nana walked off the stage and died for no reason). The changes wont give them all that much direct power, but they will be significantly less frustrating to play.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I'm starting to believe you merely like playing devil's advocate, lol...Having all the kill throws in any direction is OP no matter how you spin it. If Ganon is facing a lighter character (JP, Fox, etc) and lands a grab on either end of the stage (so close to blast zones) once they reach 50-60%, they are dead. If its midstage around 70-80, they are dead. A character should not always net a KO from a grab simply because its a bit harder to land than other grabs. ZSS has a grab that's very hard to land and VERY punishable, but we don't see her killing anywhere near that early off grabs .

And as for the logic of "his grabs killing when most other moves would so that makes it okay", the fact that EVERY move other than grab would kill in the same scenario is the very reason grabs shouldn't kill. Somewhere, the line has to be drawn for the sake of balance. Characters should be able to shield and force Ganon to approach and it more safely than they can currently. All of Ganons moves will kill, out prioritize or clash with other moves, do AMAZING damage, have buffed frame data, and have good range. So you're safe when you stay out of his reach or spot dodge/roll. Other than that, ur dead.

And if all grabs were nerfed except one (assuming the one isn't up throw), Yeah you would see that grab used more. But getting kills with it would require more work. Opponents would be aware of the throw and could position themselves to die later to the throw (similar to the Ness MU with his bthrow). So, if Ganon grabbed you and his kill throw sent you toward the far blast zone, you'd be much more likely to survive. Right now, Ganon just gets a kill if he grabs between 50-100 depending on character weight and stage position. Notice the low end of that range. That's too much.

Spazzyphantasm, what are your thoughts on this? As our scene's best Ganon main (and as your brother, lol), I'm interested to hear your opinion.

It's funny because if you nerf Ganondorf's throws [all of them], he still has side+B, which is an automatic guaranteed 50-50 at all percents [fsmash covers behind him, wiz kick covers all the other options (and for some, fsmash too)], and his up+B will KO offstage at like 45% [risky to go for though].

I'm not saying that justifies KO throws, but people would just start doing that even if all his normal grabs sucked, and I guess devs wanted him to have useful throws.

I'm fine with his throws KOing ~30% later [from memory that would be fair but still leave him with useful throws], but it seems fitting that the King of Evil can grab and discard his [would-be] subjects so easily. *shrugs* I think there are things more worth nerfing or buffing, but if they hit his throws I wouldn't be horribly mad or anything, I just... don't think they need it.

I actually believe adjusting all his throws to kill ~30% later would be a good adjustment. Idk how hard it is to code adjustments, but I assume that reducing the knockback growth of each throw to kill 30% later would be a very simple and effective change to make. I'd also love to see up throw deal less than 22%, lol, but that's not nearly as much of an issue as the current KO percents of his throws.

 

[Thor]

If it ain't Melee Sheik, don't fix it.

Melee Fox tho.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Melee Fox tho.

He still had a fully gimpable recovery, whereas Sheik could literally just camp the ledge. I still view her as the bigger issue overall.

 

[Spazzyphantasm]

Spazzyphantasm, what are your thoughts on this? As our scene's best Ganon main (and as your brother, lol), I'm interested to hear your opinion.

Bro I really don't care if they nerf his throws because the kill confirm on down throw is the only throw he needs. Nerf all of them if need be just let down throw be what it has always been a means to go into wizards foot. As for much everything else Yes his frame data is better every character in the game has better frame date. The only time Ganon will land a throw is on either a tec chase or grabbing out of shield. If Ganon raw grabs you you deserve to lose a stock. The only time you should use up throw is between 10-35 percent ,a little later on fast fallers, you will get follow ups and may end the stock. Back and forward throw have no utility. They are just unfair kill throws that I refuse to use. Plus styling on someone is way better than a kill throw, it more fun to watch.

 

[Thor]

He still had a fully gimpable recovery, whereas Sheik could literally just camp the ledge. I still view her as the bigger issue overall.

One of the biggest things that makes me think Fox is more of an issue is shinegrabs. Minus doesn't have them because you can't JC grab, but in Melee Fox could shine JC grab and the only character with an OoS option to beat it besides spotdodge/roll is Fox and maybe Puff [and that's shine/rest OoS... and I believe shine is + enough to where even Falco can't shine OoS it]. Fox's grab leads into a early or average KO on almost the entire cast [it's not that early on like Sheik I guess, but it's very early vs Puff], and it is very strong.

Sheik is just as gimpable as Fox [arguably more so, since taking ledge is so extremely detrimental to her], and Fox can also ledge stall [his requires frame-perfect precision, but if he screws up and someone takes ledge, Firefox has no landing lag, so if you don't hit him out of it it's still non-trivial to punish.

Sheik's recovery is more powerful if you are not used to moving off ledge effectively, but Fox's is better against the vast majority of the cast [it's not that much better vs Marth though, I will say that].

 

[FalconRPG]

Only one thing for Minus, reenabled builder stages. Been a long time since I played those and I haven't collected every sticker.

 

[Mariosonicman1]

they disabled custom stages? i dont recall that.

 

[Neville]

they disabled custom stages? i dont recall that.

Yes custom stages are disabled because they break the game if you are using hackless. If you are using a modded wii (ie: booting through the Homebrew channel) it is completely safe to remove the Smashstack stage from the st folder on your sd card and remove the custom stage disable code from the codeset using the included txt file in the download. FalconRPG Tagging you so you see this. If you are indeed using the homebrew channel and don't actually know how to do this, PM me and I'll help.

 

[Destructo]

Do something cool.

 

[YershiBear]

What exactly is cBliss? I'm not that experienced with Smash terminology or other mods, aside from Project M, 20XX Training Hack Pack, Silly Melee, and this.

 

[Destructo]

What exactly is cBliss? I'm not that experienced with Smash terminology or other mods, aside from Project M, 20XX Training Hack Pack, Silly Melee, and this.

Costume happy! It makes the game load ten costume slots for each character!

 

[Mariosonicman1]

i wonder if that would glitch out baddly if you accessed tourney mode. since all the costumes have to load up next to each other when you select a character.

 

[YershiBear]

Costume happy! It makes the game load ten costume slots for each character!

Sweet! I'm excited to see what the Brawl Minus team puts in as costumes for the full version of Brawl Minus 4.0.

 

[SunderStorm]

I was hoping that Falcon's upsmash and/or sideB would see some love this patch. SideB should probably be a kill at 90-100 now that it isn't an anti projectile move. Upsmash is just too small.

 

[Bent 00]

I was hoping that Falcon's upsmash and/or sideB would see some love this patch.

You're not alone!

SideB should probably be a kill at 90-100 now that it isn't an anti projectile move.

Agreed, it should either get powered up (it only deals 7% damage!) or get its intangibility back IMO. It really helped Falcon against zoners.

Upsmash is just too small.

I get the same feeling, but what's the right X Offset for Up-Smash? IIRC, it was 18 before Minus 3.5, which Nerfed it all the way down to 6.

BTW, this thread may be a more appropriate place for any further 4.0BC feedback.

 

[Neville]

I was hoping that Falcon's upsmash and/or sideB would see some love this patch. SideB should probably be a kill at 90-100 now that it isn't an anti projectile move. Upsmash is just too small.

Falcon's usmash used to be three bodylengths away from Falcon which is practically Snake utilt levels of stupid and it's still slightly disjointed.

 

[Pin Clock]

BTW, this thread may be a more appropriate place for any further 4.0BC feedback.