Brawl Minus 4.0 Changelog Preview!

[Gold_TSG]

While I haven't messed around with 4.0b Sonic personally, the fact that you're telling me it's now a meteor doesn't change the issue still. The problem remains that it still combos into spring, and any % above low will outright kill, cancel or no. How many characters can actually recover from that low? I can safely say that none of my main mains can. I can say that at least half the characters I could use cannot. Nobody with subpar vertical recovery will come back from that combo past roughly 20%, which is ridiculous no matter how you want to slice it. You don't even need to focus on the set up with his fthrow. Getting anyone offstage at any point puts them at risk from this combo, dodge or no. A smart Sonic won't just throw it out there if dodging is an option. They will bait the dodge, or they will wait until they try to recover, in which they cannot dodge anymore, making low recoveries impossible. Couple this with Sonic's ability to punish high recoveries just as well, and you have a gimping machine that will keep you off if he's good enough. Nobody is asking to butcher him, only to make this particular string of attacks less stupid.

 

[Bent 00]

How about we don't, because that's a meaningless benchmark to use?

It's a good benchmark because it's one of the strongest (if not the strongest) Meteor Smashes in the game.

Can you give me one good reason why Sonic -- the fastest character, who is very mobile in the air -- should have a more deadly D-Air than Ganondorf, the slowest character with the worst aerial mobility? It's poor balance, pure and simple.

Moreover, I don't understand why you're calling this move a OHKO, when it is not a OHKO.

Sonic's D-Air is essentially a OHKO at Final Destination Ledge-Level or below, unless you have a great recovery and less than 10% damage. It doesn't do a lot of damage, but that hitstun will keep you stunned until you're nearly on top of the bottom blast zone. Not to mention the Spring! Sonic has not one, but two chances to EZ-Gimp opponents offstage at ridiculously low percents.

Moreover, the OHKO moves that do exist aren't suicide moves. They put you in terrible positions, sure. So does this one. You're plummeting into the abyss with an opponent above you.

Sonic's D-Air (as-is) is best compared to Ganondorf's OHKO Warlock Punch. Mortal Draw costs Link his movement, and Luigi's Down Taunt only works on opponents hanging off a ledge. Neither can be used in the air.

OHKO Warlock Punch is the definition of a suicide move offstage. You miss with it, Ganondorf cannot recover. (ARGHH WHYY STUPID OHKO)

Sonic's D-Air is effectively a OHKO just like it (at FD ledge-level or below), except Sonic can actually recover if he misses.

"Plummeting into the abyss with an opponent above you" isn't nearly as bad as "guaranteed dead".

 

[Thor]

"Plummeting into the abyss"

Oh, I don't know, jump, boost away from stage, up+B, boost back in toward stage [20 frame cooldown leaves you the time to do that from the height boost from spring].

Alternatively, immediately double jump spring and boost onstage.

Alternatively, immediate double jump, boost toward the wall, wall jump, spring, boost back onstage.

Alternatively, double jump, wall jump, b-reverse spring, dair to land back onstage.

Alternatively, double jump airdodge, spring, boost onstage.

Sonic has literally the best burst mobility option (side+b) all of Smash, ever. There is no character better at removing himself from a positional disadvantage than Brawl Minus Sonic, again probably ever.

If being stuck under the foe from using a true spike is a problem, maybe you should try Ganondorf, who also has to be plummeting into the abyss after his down+B [or falling very fast with dair], who happens to have really really bad airspeed to boot. Or Falco, who falls even faster and can't adjust where he is nearly as fast [jumps are nice but low airspeed and his only vertical recovery tool that isn't wall-dependent has around a second of startup, and has been nerfed so its protection is ok but nothing special].

Like c'mon, you're not thinking that hard here. Step it up.

 

[Valravn]

I mentioned that I also play Falco and Ganondorf. If you're not going to take the time to read my posts in their entirety, there's no point to me writing them. I am aware that Sonic can move. Most characters can move. There's no need to be obtuse here, I know that Sonic is extremely fast and extremely good. That's why he's my favorite character, and why I constantly involve myself in this endless, pointless, topic.

I just don't think he's too good. He's definitely not the best, and there is ample counterplay to everything he does. He just forces people to think and act quickly. Apparently we differ in opinion on whether that's a good thing. I personally think it's great, and fills a niche in the metagame. Some people are probably frustrated by it, or don't think that niche should exist in this game. (Though really, Fox does it as well if not better.)

It frustrates me that this community is so focused on weakening and overhauling characters instead of learning how to play the game. This game is exciting and fair. Nothing is too strong, very few things are too weak. I'm very happy with the current build of the game. I wish Olimar were different, but him being terrible isn't going to stop me and my friends from playing the rest of the game. I wish Zelda didn't have such obvious weaknesses, but I can still win with her in some matchups, and I have a good time in every matchup.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to this:

Can you give me one good reason why Sonic -- the fastest character, who is very mobile in the air -- should have a more deadly D-Air than Ganondorf, the slowest character with the worst aerial mobility? It's poor balance, pure and simple.

It doesn't make sense as a benchmark because the moves are for two very different things. Sonic's Dair is a DI trap for offstage KO's, or for limiting low recovery options. Ganondorf's Dair is a mediocre move that can only be used on stage or against offstage characters who you could kill with any other aerial.

I have to wonder why you can't ask, "Why can't Ganondorf have a crazy awesome Dair like Sonic?". I think that'd be more fun, and more Minus.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I just don't think he's too good. He's definitely not the best, and there is ample counterplay to everything he does. He just forces people to think and act quickly. Apparently we differ in opinion on whether that's a good thing. I personally think it's great, and fills a niche in the metagame. Some people are probably frustrated by it, or don't think that niche should exist in this game. (Though really, Fox does it as well if not better.)

It frustrates me that this community is so focused on weakening and overhauling characters instead of learning how to play the game. This game is exciting and fair. Nothing is too strong, very few things are too weak.

I'll say it again, it is focused on a single attack, not his entire style of play. Changing his one single dair to something less ridiculous is the only thing everyone here is asking for. Literally nothing else changes. Instead of complaining about people complaining, look at it from their point of view. Maybe they play characters that do poorly against Sonic, or maybe they just can't get around Sonic's dair. "Then they should counter pick! That's what the game is all abo-" no. I will cut you off there. This game at its core is meant for fun, casual play. Why should people have to pick characters they might not enjoy using just because of one character's single attack? Why do you think ROB was nerfed so much since I joined? Because he was genuinely unfun to fight against. Why do you think MK was changed so drastically from Brawl? Cause he was genuinely unfun to fight against. The difference? Those two examples were overhauled because of their issues. Sonic, again, is a single attack.

And the reason things are overhauled or weakened is for the sake of some semblance of balance. Yes, the game is supposed to be broken and overpowered, but that isn't an excuse to allow anything unfun or toxic to just stay in the game. The devs choose their courses of action based on the overall picture of things. They are concerned about keeping everything on a level field so everyone can enjoy the game on any skill level, and so no one or two characters have tons of pros and next to no cons (Minus ROB of olden days, Brawl MK, fsmash the character AKA old Marth, etc). You enjoy Sonic as he is, while several others dislike a part of him that they find irritating or infuriating to deal with, and those people complaining aren't just random new people who just joined the forums just to complain. They are players that have been with Minus for a good long while, and have experienced many of the changes this mod has gone through. As such, their complaints aren't going to fall on deaf ears just because you love Sonic. The devs will look him over and try to fix the problem without removing what makes him fun. If you're implying Sonic is only fun because of his dair, then you are playing him for the wrong reasons.

I have to wonder why you can't ask, "Why can't Ganondorf have a crazy awesome Dair like Sonic?". I think that'd be more fun, and more Minus.

I personally would not be opposed to this, if Dorf didn't already have the "strongest" meteors in the game. What would you change on his meteors?

 

[Farkus]

Yeah, there a lot of characters that get easy low percent KO's. Sonic is not the only one. And a lot of the other ones don't require going offstage and risking SDing. Why is he the only focus?

 

[Neville]

Yeah, there a lot of characters that get easy low percent KO's. Sonic is not the only one. And a lot of the other ones don't require going offstage and risking SDing. Why is he the only focus?

Because Sonic's dair is an almost egregious example of stupid stacked on stupid. Dair>Spring is one of the most annoying stupid things in the game. It can also be comboed into from a multitude of things and is almost unpunishable due to how Sonic's recovery from the dair functions. And seriously, if Bent, Thor, Gold, and I can agree on something it must be legit. I Don't think that's ever happened before and we've been on these forums for almost 2 years together. ffs

 

[Farkus]

Because Sonic's dair is an almost egregious example of stupid stacked on stupid. Dair>Spring is one of the most annoying stupid things in the game. It can also be comboed into from a multitude of things and is almost unpunishable due to how Sonic's recovery from the dair functions. And seriously, if Bent, Thor, Gold, and I can agree on something it must be legit. I Don't think that's ever happened before and we've been on these forums for almost 2 years together. ffs

The combos into the dair are DI dependent, and will be even harder to land after the gravity patch. Granted it is dumb, but there are far more important things that need to be addressed before this.

 

[Thor]

I also said this a while ago and it got lost or something, but I'd be 100% down for buffs elsewhere to Sonic for fixing this dair.

More KBG on fair's last hit? Go ahead!

Less cooldown on fsmash? Bring it!

Sonic can attack sooner out of spring (assuming he can't attack right away after it)? Well that sounds a little absurd, but... it could be tried!

Usmash is intangible in the air? Uh, I guess...

Less cooldown on boost? OK now you're pushing it...

But please, can we alter the one move that is a true spike that is also safe on whiff?

Also, to be clear, this isn't an "I hate Sonic" thing, this is an "I dislike inconsistency in design" thing. If the devs removed Sonic's dair spike, then made Falco's strong dair [or whole dair] spike, you can bet I would be complaining that such a design choice is atrocious [and I'll remind you that when they found Lucario's up+b to be a true spike when moving downward, they altered the code to remove the spike]. I don't like the design choice of "You can meteor cancel moves, well all of them but this one" and that's why I'm so against leaving Sonic's dair as it was in 3.Q [or since it still spikes, as it is now].

I am also the guy who spent two patches asking the devs to nerf Firebird so that it wasn't so hard to gimp, and for a while it was literally only owo and I who used him with any regularity. So it really isn't, "I don't like Sonic and want to nerf him", it really is, "I really think this is a very poor choice and asymmetric in a way that's not good for the game."

Spoiler

(I've also complained elsewhere about Ganondorf up+b, the only other move that acts like a spike, but I don't want that altered and Sonic dair left alone [that would be even worse], it is a recovery move so it leaves Ganondorf helpless on whiff, is impossible to set up into from what I know, and it doesn't kill until around 30 usually from memory, so it kills later than Sonic dair.)

 

[Neville]

I also said this a while ago and it got lost or something, but I'd be 100% down for buffs elsewhere to Sonic for fixing this dair.

More KBG on fair's last hit? Go ahead!

Less cooldown on fsmash? Bring it!

Sonic can attack sooner out of spring (assuming he can't attack right away after it)? Well that sounds a little absurd, but... it could be tried!

Usmash is intangible in the air? Uh, I guess...

Less cooldown on boost? OK now you're pushing it...

But please, can we alter the one move that is a true spike that is also safe on whiff?

Spoiler

(I've also complained elsewhere about Ganondorf up+b, the only other move that acts like a spike, but I don't want that altered and Sonic dair left alone, it is a recovery move so it leaves Ganondorf helpless on whiff, is impossible to set up into from what I know, and it doesn't kill until around 30 usually from memory, so it kills later than Sonic dair.)

This. I would love to see buffs on Sonic elsewhere, specifically making Sonic's fair have no reverse hitbox if possible and lowering his nair's knockback angle slightly. (Because there are many ways to make moves kill easily.)

 

[Thor]

This. I would love to see buffs on Sonic elsewhere, specifically making Sonic's fair have no reverse hitbox if possible and lowering his nair's knockback angle slightly.

I ninja edit'd lol. Sorry 'bout that.

Sonic fair having a reverse hitbox is in my opinion kind of sweet, but probably makes edgeguarding annoying. I am a fan of reverse hitboxes [there are a ton of moves I'd love to see reverse hitboxes on, notably Falcon fair/bair], but if removing this is a buff people want, then I'm not someone who plays Sonic enough to miss it.

 

[Farkus]

I don't mind sacrificing a true spike for some other buffs, but i don't like the idea of a stall and fall dair not being at least a meteor. Otherwise, it would be better for me to just spam spring on the edge, and that's fun for no one.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Dair being a meteor isn't the issue. Dair being a strong meteor that combos into another meteor is the problem.

Imagine for a moment, if Dorf could dair you, then immediately down B, and still recover, or if he could combo dair or down B into up B for whatever unholy reason. You wouldn't like it. I sure as hell would, but that would be absurd.

 

[Farkus]

Dair being a meteor isn't the issue. Dair being a strong meteor that combos into another meteor is the problem.

Imagine for a moment, if Dorf could dair you, then immediately down B, and still recover, or if he could combo dair or down B into up B for whatever unholy reason. You wouldn't like it. I sure as hell would, but that would be absurd.

That is true, but you have a better chance living if you get springed, because it can be meteor cancelled.

 

[Neville]

Imagine for a moment ... if he could combo dair or down B into up B for whatever unholy reason.

That would be the most horrifying thing in all of Minus. In other words another project for me to work on.

 

[Neville]

Sonic fair having a reverse hitbox is in my opinion kind of sweet, but probably makes edgeguarding annoying. I am a fan of reverse hitboxes [there are a ton of moves I'd love to see reverse hitboxes on, notably Falcon fair/bair], but if removing this is a buff people want, then I'm not someone who plays Sonic enough to miss it.

The reverse hitbox is kind of annoying especially because it can be hard to tell when it hits. While there is a place for reverse hitboxes, Sonic's fair isn't it. To give you an example, imagine if Falco's fair had a reverse hitbox that didn't combo into anything and didn't kill. I imagine it would be irratating to hit with.

 

[Thor]

That would be the most horrifying thing in all of Minus. In other words another project for me to work on.

You want something horrifying?

Tone down the damage on sweetspot knee to Melee levels.

Now give him 64 usmash. According to one thing I read, it's frame 3 [apparently Zeus has it as a powerup taunt alt usmash, if you could somehow grab that and swap it in for his default usmash...].

Captain Falcon now has a frame 4 OoS option that combos into knee. His knee also chains on survival DI much better [given that it can happen in Melee and he has buffed speed...]

 

[Gold_TSG]

That would be the most horrifying thing in all of Minus. In other words another project for me to work on.

Please make it a thing.

 

[Gold_TSG]

That is true, but you have a better chance living if you get springed, because it can be meteor cancelled.

Yes, but dair >spring is the problem. Once you get hit by dair, you're guaranteed to be hit by spring. Even if you meteor cancel it, you've already been pushed down to just barely above the bottom blast zone (if you didn't straight up die), where very few characters can actually recover from, even in Minus.

 

[Destructo]

It's already avoidable, and that change completely misses the problem everyone seems to have with it. That just changes it from a KO move to a setup move for a much less lethal KO move.

It'd at least look cool.
OH LOOK WALUIGI EVERYONE DISTRACTION

 

[Neville]

It'd at least look cool.
OH LOOK WALUIGI EVERYONE DISTRACTION

SONIC'S DAIR HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT EVERY PAGE OF THIS THREAD YOU CAN'T STOP US MWAHAHAHAHAHAH.
Seriously tho can we have a Sonic dair thread that isn't called "Brawl Minus 4.0 changelog preview"? Seriously guys it's been 5 pages and a month and a half. I had 7 updates this morning all pertaining to Sonic's dair. Plz stahp.

 

[Farkus]

SONIC'S DAIR HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT EVERY PAGE OF THIS THREAD YOU CAN'T STOP US MWAHAHAHAHAHAH.
Seriously tho can we have a Sonic dair thread that isn't called "Brawl Minus 4.0 changelog preview"? Seriously guys it's been 5 pages and a month and a half. I had 7 updates this morning all pertaining to Sonic's dair. Plz stahp.

There, I just made a thread so we can exclusively argue about Sonic's dair there, instead of cluttering this thread.

 

[Neville]

There, I just made a thread so we can exclusively argue about Sonic's dair there, instead of cluttering this thread.

Thank you I love you Lord Farkwad.

 

[Mariosonicman1]

so..... what else are we gonna complain about if sonics dair is in a new thread? ....uhh.....

am i the only one who thinks snakes rocket launchers 3 smash attacks need attack just a tad sooner? i could hit one enemy with his side smash, but the other 2 attacks miss most of the time, what if at low percents you could chain the 3 smash attacks in a quick motion just for fast starting damage?

 

[Gold_TSG]

so..... what else are we gonna complain about if sonics dair is in a new thread? ....uhh.....

am i the only one who thinks snakes rocket launchers 3 smash attacks need attack just a tad sooner? i could hit one enemy with his side smash, but the other 2 attacks miss most of the time, what if at low percents you could chain the 3 smash attacks in a quick motion just for fast starting damage?

You could just... Not use the other two hits so you can act sooner. Making all 3 hit would require damage lowering so it isn't stupid, since he is already pretty dang strong.