Destructo
Failure Incarnate
So? Are they any good, or do I look like an idiot?
Brawl Minus 4.0 Changelog Preview!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
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Destructo
Failure Incarnate
DOH I MISSHED
Welp, at least the costumes I made for the community cbliss competition have a chance.
Destructo
Failure Incarnate
Then I guess getting that cbliss code early isn't going to happen.
Kymaera K1ng
A PMCC player
Will the OP be updated in the future?
Please?
Please?
Mawootad
Minus Backroom
1) The fallspeed changes don't (I'm pretty sure), but the jump height changes do. The timing is very tight, but you have at least 4 frames for input, so it's still reliable.
2) It has not received an angle change (and it wont in 4.0), but we may fix the inability to meteor cancel it. The more balance oriented members of the BR are of the opinion that the lack of meteor cancelling isn't what kills people, it's the spring that hits you before you could meteor cancel anyway.
Diddy's dair can not be canceled laglessly out of a short hop in 4.0b.
Mariosonicman1
Well-Known Member
am i strange when i say the thing im most excited for is the chance to play these new (apperently old) stages for brawl minus?
question. is litterally frozen pokemon stadium 2 full of ice physics? i sure hope so.
question. is litterally frozen pokemon stadium 2 full of ice physics? i sure hope so.
Mario3785
Enjoyer of Ironic Memes
Yeah, early cBliss would be cool. Oh well, it's not mandatory for me to enjoy Minus 4.0b.
Destructo
Failure Incarnate
Yeah, but even then, we can still mess around with Roy and Pichu's BrawlEx file to give them tons of slots.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure my method of SH AC dair buffers it [since I can do it reliably in Smash 4 and I believe it's frame-perfect in Smash 4], so as long as it's possible, that should be fine.
And I don't want Sonic's dair to like send horizontally or something. What I meant by an angle change is, "will the angle be modified so that it sends the exact same direction it currently does, but will be meteorcancellable?" I seem to recall someone saying you could set an angle to be [for instance] 360+270 instead of 360, and it would be unable to meteor-cancelled [aka, a spike], which is what [I think] happened to Sonic's dair. So by an angle change, I was asking if the move would become properly meteorcancellable, not if the move would function differently outside of the lack of a meteor cancel.
The spring kill is annoying, but I seem to recall Bent's testing indicating a spring is unnecessary past like 25% at ledge height [that is, they die even without being hit by spring, and cannot avoid this death at all]. If the spring were the only reason it killed, that would be somewhat more manageable, but it seems that even without the spring, dair kills really really early [and in 3.Q, dair killed at ledge height at zero without spring if I recall correctly].
Stadium 2 has an Ice Transformation, so we just had it stay on that. It's glorious.
What Sonic's dair is iirc is angle 365 which is a special angle that sends at the same direction Sonic is going. Since this doesn't lie at the specified angles that can be meteor canceled, it functions as a true spike.
Destructo
Failure Incarnate
I agree. vBrawl's dair was sort of weird in how it functioned, and I don't think making it laggier will help.
Mario3785
Enjoyer of Ironic Memes
Okay, a few questions:
Will Wario's costumes be in the opposite order, with Classic Wario coming first?
Will Wario be based more off of his Wario Land iteration?
Will Mario's dash attack animation have his hands open, so it looks less...odd?
Will 4.0 have alternate costumes for Giga Bowser and Wario Man, like Project M did?
Will Bowser's aerial n-special have more range and last longer?
Will Wario's costumes be in the opposite order, with Classic Wario coming first?
Will Wario be based more off of his Wario Land iteration?
Will Mario's dash attack animation have his hands open, so it looks less...odd?
Will 4.0 have alternate costumes for Giga Bowser and Wario Man, like Project M did?
Will Bowser's aerial n-special have more range and last longer?
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Destructo
Failure Incarnate
I agree with practically everything you've asked. Bowser's neutral B needs more range BADLY.
Sliding with your hands forward in fists would look akward, fiction or not.
PM Wario is REALLY fun to play. I would totally love a Wario Land type Minus Wario.
Classic Wario looks way better than WarioWare Wario.
Having different costumes for Wario Man and Giga makes sense. I like it.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Back to Sonic's D-Air... Why not just revert it to vBrawl?
I basically never played him in vBrawl, so I don't know how good or bad it was.
I just know that it's way too good as-is in Minus, even without the Spring followup.
If it remains a OHKO at ledge-level or below, it should at least have the same drawback you insist on Warlock Punch having -- guaranteed suicide unless it hits. Even with that drawback, it would still be too good...
Sonic's D-Air is essentially the best and most safe OHKO move in Minus, with none of the drawbacks a OHKO move should have.
I basically never played him in vBrawl, so I don't know how good or bad it was.
I just know that it's way too good as-is in Minus, even without the Spring followup.
If it remains a OHKO at ledge-level or below, it should at least have the same drawback you insist on Warlock Punch having -- guaranteed suicide unless it hits. Even with that drawback, it would still be too good...
Sonic's D-Air is essentially the best and most safe OHKO move in Minus, with none of the drawbacks a OHKO move should have.
Destructo
Failure Incarnate
Sonic's vBrawl dair is absolutely abysmal.
It's pretty close to that with the cancels being changed to on-hit.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
If that's the route you're taking, to be fair, you should make Link's Mortal Draw and 'Dorf's Warlock Punch shoot them forward, since Sonic's OHKO move shoots him downward. A moving hitbox is MUCH more likely to hit than a static one. The hitboxes of Mortal Draw and Warlock Punch should be extended as well, since the hitbox on Sonic's D-Air lasts for much longer than they do.
With these changes, Sonic will still have the best and most safe OHKO in the game. At least bring the other two OHKOs up to its level.
Seriously, though.
Why does Sonic's D-Air have to send it's target in the same direction that Sonic is going? That's the reason why you don't want to change the angle, and the angle is what makes it function like a True Spike (foes can't act out of the stun until it's too late to recover).
I would think that changing the angle -- or even reverting it to vBrawl and adding some other buff to compensate if necessary -- would be better than leaving Sonic's D-Air a OHKO at ledge-level or below. OHKO moves are supposed to have long windups or charge times, or some other big drawback, while Sonic's D-Air comes out quick and has two chances to Spike/Meteor Smash/Whatever with Spring Cancel.
You seem to be blowing off how broken this move is for some reason, but this level of broken is toxic.
Gold said you would make it not a OHKO anymore:
...so please do that, or make the other OHKOs shoot forward while their hitboxes are active, too, and extend their active hitbox time.
Or, if shooting forward is not an option, give the other two OHKOs buffs to make them as good as Sonic's D-Air. You could allow Link to move while Mortal Draw is primed. You could add a midair momentum pause to aerial Warlock Punch, just like Falcon Punch has (and maybe some upwards and/or forward momentum too)*. Just be fair about it, is all I'm saying.
* It's relevant, don't taze me bro.
For the record, I don't expect you to Buff Mortal Draw or Warlock Punch in any way -- I made those suggestions so you can see how hypocritical it will be if you leave Sonic's D-Air as the vastly superior OHKO move it currently is, in comparison to the other two OHKO moves.
Sonic doesn't deserve special treatment. Nerf his D-Air as mercilessly as you treated Mortal Draw and Warlock Punch, or you're hypocrites. As long as the move remains a OHKO, it should be given the same level of drawbacks as other OHKO moves -- no, even more drawbacks, because it is so fast.
The easiest option here is just to make it not OHKO anymore. Which is what Gold said you would do.
EDIT: Warned already.
You can't even "bring up" changing Warlock Punch, guys. Even if it is RELEVANT to the topic at hand. It's officially taboo.Pin Clock said:
Reference posts for why I thought it safe to mention changing Warlock Punch again:
You can't discuss Minus OHKO moves and not mention Warlock Punch. Come on.
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Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Actually, just letting him move left or right while Mortal Draw is primed sounds pretty reasonable to me.
If he couldn't Jump, Dodge, or Shield until he takes the swing, he's still gonna have to leave himself open.
As-is, it's even harder to land than Warlock Punch. The only thing that is harder to land (that comes to mind) is Luigi's taunt spike.
Of course, this would require new "walking while sword is sheathed" animations, so it's not gonna happen.
...
I really don't understand the favoritism the devs are showing for Sonic's D-Air.
Who seriously thinks that move actually deserves to be a OHKO?
If he couldn't Jump, Dodge, or Shield until he takes the swing, he's still gonna have to leave himself open.
As-is, it's even harder to land than Warlock Punch. The only thing that is harder to land (that comes to mind) is Luigi's taunt spike.
Of course, this would require new "walking while sword is sheathed" animations, so it's not gonna happen.
...
I really don't understand the favoritism the devs are showing for Sonic's D-Air.
Who seriously thinks that move actually deserves to be a OHKO?
A person
Member
I"m actually kinda glad about the Luigi change.
Uthrow>cyclone>up b was stupid, but it still should kill.
(you know, I really need to check these barren boards more often...)
Man, the sonic dair flame war tho.
How about just make it able to be meteor cancelled, decrease the base knockback to something around the level of lucas's vbrawl dair, but increase the kbg to be somewhat the same as it is around high percents. Sonic already has some pretty good kill options. I do think the dair is a problem, but it's being blown slightly out of proportion.
Also, you could make the angle of the spring like 10 degrees or something. So it isn't a guaranteed death after a dair, but still edgegaurds very well. Might be worse for characters with bad horizontal recoveries tho.
Uthrow>cyclone>up b was stupid, but it still should kill.
(you know, I really need to check these barren boards more often...)
Man, the sonic dair flame war tho.
How about just make it able to be meteor cancelled, decrease the base knockback to something around the level of lucas's vbrawl dair, but increase the kbg to be somewhat the same as it is around high percents. Sonic already has some pretty good kill options. I do think the dair is a problem, but it's being blown slightly out of proportion.
Also, you could make the angle of the spring like 10 degrees or something. So it isn't a guaranteed death after a dair, but still edgegaurds very well. Might be worse for characters with bad horizontal recoveries tho.
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