Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
yea, i did say that i wanted to be on like colbot, or some high lvl melee player or something. right now, its hard to find a char to settle on, cuz im trying to find which chars support multiple playstyles
Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
IIRC, the gravity increase is in fact ice-specific. Basically, it feels less like you're a balloon when you're turned into an ice cube.
Thor
Well-Known Member
PowerUp's choices are strong (not too sure about Lucario, but top tier madness and Aura Sphere/Double Team are very workable for defense, especially at high percents, so I'm inclined to agree).
ROB is also flexible (can be aggressive or camp a bit, though the camping is way down with the second gyro gone), as are Snake and Toon Link (can camp for days or rush in with powerful CQC attacks and strings). I personally think Link is flexible as well, but some seem to think he's a poor camper (against Falco maybe, but not against a bunch of other characters). I feel like Pikachu can also be pretty flexible, and I feel the same about MK and Lucas (PK firing forward or backward?). Jiggs is also relatively flexible (Air camp or aerial rushdown?).
While Dedede isn't flexible, his defenses are incredible and his offense is scary when used right.
ROB is also flexible (can be aggressive or camp a bit, though the camping is way down with the second gyro gone), as are Snake and Toon Link (can camp for days or rush in with powerful CQC attacks and strings). I personally think Link is flexible as well, but some seem to think he's a poor camper (against Falco maybe, but not against a bunch of other characters). I feel like Pikachu can also be pretty flexible, and I feel the same about MK and Lucas (PK firing forward or backward?). Jiggs is also relatively flexible (Air camp or aerial rushdown?).
While Dedede isn't flexible, his defenses are incredible and his offense is scary when used right.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Falco is super flexible now because of his lasers now. So is yoshi with and his flaming babies. Sonic is great playing keep away but benefits little by doing so. Sheik can be passive with needles and maybe the whip. Zamus can also stay away from you forever using stun attacks and well spaced nairs.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
oh ROB....
they're just like brothers
and in gameplay
they're just like brothers
and in gameplay
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5 Frames isn't laughable at all. If I were to reduce the speed of a jab from a 4 frame to a 9 frame for example, it would never be used again. And yes I know that TL isn't super overkill. Regarding Link I'll hit the damage. Even though Ike's jabs are equal speed and stronger while even leading into more combos. I've also noticed that it is considerably more difficult to get bomb finishes out of combos due to the 5 frame reduction.
Exactly this. Link had too many moves that would only be used to punish foes on miss. Even after perfect shielding some attacks were too slow to connect on anyone.
Not technically a bug. It's Roy's air dash momentum fighting his sent flying momentum. Same thing happens with Marth's shield breaker.
Pretty sure it was to increase the speed of gameplay by a small bit, not that I thought the game was too slow. It was also intended to make wall of pains more difficult to do since everyone would fall a bit faster.
ROB is what happens when you give a move low damage and low kb. You get a character who can combo his super quick moves into themselves 4 to 2-3 times BEFORE they throw out a powerful attack at the same speed to send you flying. That's not good for anyone, let's be real. [/quote]
So you're arguing that Link's jabs are abusable now? Against who exactly? He still has some of the slowest jabs in Minus.
I disagree that a 3 frame move killing earlier than all but the strongest smash attacks is fair just because it's easy to punish.
Two frames is nothing for a nerf but you're complaining along with half the community from a two frame BUFF. What does that make you look like?
Also lol @ trying to pass the grab reduction off as 'more of a nerf', who do you think is buying that? [/QUOTE]
Regarding the grab reduction. I'd much rather call it a sidegrade. How about next update I just make it as horrible as Link's? I'm sure no one would mind that.
I'm pretty sure it applies to all the game.
Glyph
Moderator
First off, that post was not the start of a debate. I wasn't looking for you to defend those bad decisions, I was looking for you to admit them.
Bomb pull is not a jab. The speed it has is much more than it should have, and that stems from some idea that bombs should be combo tools instead of pressure tools. Bomb pull should straight be reverted to 2.x.6, as should the throwing range on held items. Right now Link can put lethal pressure on anywhere on the map, AND sustain it.
Hey my name is spacing it is nice to meet you. Abuse how crazy far away Link can hit people with utilt. Short hop those nairs, that comes out nigh instantly. Even if your jab is slow, its plenty fast enough to punish people in endlag. This notion that he's even remotely bad OoS is silly.
Imaginary problem fixed then!
I wasn't referring to ROB in particular there, but rather how flawed the process is of looking at only frame data and trying to translate that to what needs balanced. Even if you do catch someone with 4 of ROB's dtilts, that's 8%. With four. I haven't had a chance to talk about this yet, but I also think its hilarious that we've got another 'slightly reduced' situation where ROB's dtilt speed has been cut roughly in half. Damage is still the same though of course, so ROB's can enjoy that 2% poke that'll get them punished now.
Against literally anyone. Every character. Spacing. Not to mention the only time that this whole frame data garbage would actually come into play is when both players are coming out of lag of some sort at EXACTLY the same time and both try to start their attack, again, at exactly the same time. Another imaginary problem resolved!
Huh, I guess you have a harder time seeing it coming. To each their own, I still think this is a bad nerf.
LOL dude don't try to throw this back onto the players who don't like your changes here. Being upset Link got several moves buffed, even if a little is cause to be upset. Literally the only person who was pushing them was you. And I don't think you understood my complaint with the bomb nerf, it was that the two frames is WAY too little compared to what it deserves. Look at the changelog.
'Link was able to pull bombs very quickly to the point where they were basically free combo finishers at high percent thanks to Minus's hitstun. With this slight reduction, his opponents will have just a little more time to react.'
5 frames is the total change on the move (I don't know where this two comes into play, so we'll error on the side of caution). Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5 frames is 1/12th of a second. You've given players 1/12th of a second more time to react to bombs.
Balance.
Lol no, this one is just straight up better. Still has the lingering collision (which almost never caught people when it was longer in the first place), but now is significantly harder to capitalize on for the opponent.
Kien I get that its frustrating to have this reaction to your changes, but trying to spin it like the players are all wrong is not the way to go about it. Recognize you made some bad calls and move on.
Bomb pull is not a jab. The speed it has is much more than it should have, and that stems from some idea that bombs should be combo tools instead of pressure tools. Bomb pull should straight be reverted to 2.x.6, as should the throwing range on held items. Right now Link can put lethal pressure on anywhere on the map, AND sustain it.
Hey my name is spacing it is nice to meet you. Abuse how crazy far away Link can hit people with utilt. Short hop those nairs, that comes out nigh instantly. Even if your jab is slow, its plenty fast enough to punish people in endlag. This notion that he's even remotely bad OoS is silly.
Imaginary problem fixed then!
I wasn't referring to ROB in particular there, but rather how flawed the process is of looking at only frame data and trying to translate that to what needs balanced. Even if you do catch someone with 4 of ROB's dtilts, that's 8%. With four. I haven't had a chance to talk about this yet, but I also think its hilarious that we've got another 'slightly reduced' situation where ROB's dtilt speed has been cut roughly in half. Damage is still the same though of course, so ROB's can enjoy that 2% poke that'll get them punished now.
Against literally anyone. Every character. Spacing. Not to mention the only time that this whole frame data garbage would actually come into play is when both players are coming out of lag of some sort at EXACTLY the same time and both try to start their attack, again, at exactly the same time. Another imaginary problem resolved!
Huh, I guess you have a harder time seeing it coming. To each their own, I still think this is a bad nerf.
LOL dude don't try to throw this back onto the players who don't like your changes here. Being upset Link got several moves buffed, even if a little is cause to be upset. Literally the only person who was pushing them was you. And I don't think you understood my complaint with the bomb nerf, it was that the two frames is WAY too little compared to what it deserves. Look at the changelog.
'Link was able to pull bombs very quickly to the point where they were basically free combo finishers at high percent thanks to Minus's hitstun. With this slight reduction, his opponents will have just a little more time to react.'
5 frames is the total change on the move (I don't know where this two comes into play, so we'll error on the side of caution). Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5 frames is 1/12th of a second. You've given players 1/12th of a second more time to react to bombs.
Balance.
Lol no, this one is just straight up better. Still has the lingering collision (which almost never caught people when it was longer in the first place), but now is significantly harder to capitalize on for the opponent.
Kien I get that its frustrating to have this reaction to your changes, but trying to spin it like the players are all wrong is not the way to go about it. Recognize you made some bad calls and move on.
I feel as if this was a misconception that needs to be clarified:
GLOBAL GRAVITY WAS NOT INCREASED.
Ice's Gravity was.
We are considering playing with Global Gravity, but we haven't done that yet. It's why Luigi and Diddy are the only ones that fall faster.
GLOBAL GRAVITY WAS NOT INCREASED.
Ice's Gravity was.
We are considering playing with Global Gravity, but we haven't done that yet. It's why Luigi and Diddy are the only ones that fall faster.
First I'm gonna remove everything that isn't regarding me or my choices.
You just said it yourself that it's easy to see a 3 frame kill move coming. Why can't you escape a 45 frame bomb toss exactly? and those 2 frames come in before he actually spawns the bomb. Either way, I don't think a 12th of a second more time to react is bad, considering over half of ROBs attacks come out in less than a 12th of a second. But hey I'm biased. [/quote]
Then I'll reduce active frames a bit more. It certainly isn't overpowered though. TL has like an 11 frame grab that will only kill at high percents or with his back to the ledge.
2X6 bomb pull was Vbrawl speed. The range on thrown items it the same as 3.0 and onward. And why should bombs be pressure tools? He has arrows and a boomerang for that. I've always seen bombs as a control thing, not a pressure tool. Pressure tools don't KO at 120ish.
You were the one saying Link was awful outside of shield as he only had one option.
in the event that he isn't punished he leads into a potentially death dealing combo on anyone over 50%. How is that bad? Is there no risk vs reward now?
Coming out of lag? what about neutral? Should Link's jab lose to Bowser's all the time? Why does someone known for being slow like Ganon get to have more fast attacks than someone like Link who is for the most part well rounded?
You just said it yourself that it's easy to see a 3 frame kill move coming. Why can't you escape a 45 frame bomb toss exactly? and those 2 frames come in before he actually spawns the bomb. Either way, I don't think a 12th of a second more time to react is bad, considering over half of ROBs attacks come out in less than a 12th of a second. But hey I'm biased. [/quote]
Then I'll reduce active frames a bit more. It certainly isn't overpowered though. TL has like an 11 frame grab that will only kill at high percents or with his back to the ledge.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Kienamaru said:
Calling bombs for control and arrows/boomerang for pressure is nonsense. They all are designed to do the same thing - force your opponent into certain spaces (though bombs can be caught). I haven't the faintest idea what a control thing versus a pressure tool is, but I don't think there's much of a difference. And if pressure tools don't KO around 120%, and arrows are pressure tools, nerf them - they KO around 120%.
I'll address something moronic Glyph said now:
Glyph said:
Your logic is cute but totally fails under any reasonable examination. The problem isn't that ROB's dtilt is so weak you can land 4 for 8%, the problem is that ROB can land 1 for 2% then dsmash someone for like 20%, which is indeed really stupid for how safe/not shield-grabbable dtilt is. ROB's dtilt was stupid, not the nerf - half-speed may be too much, but a dsmash damage nerf or dtilt speed/trip nerf was needed, when one could dtilt 3 times or less, reading for the trip each time, then dsmash someone to hell (which also KOs, which makes dsmash super good considering how much damage it does and how much control it gives ROB, resetting bad spacing while giving him a combo followup relatively easily below 100%).
Kienamaru said:
He has a long range shieldgrab, up+b OoS, and nair. I get the jab 1 speed buff a little, the others are just overkill.
You're both so eager to defend your characters, when you both actually have the exact same biases, just with different characters, always trying to pain them as sucky when you fail to actually treat with respect characters who need it, like say Game and Watch, who now really can't consistently go under FD because bacon clanking out is dumb (it's a measure of horizontal distance is why it matters). And I don't even play GnW, and I'm not particularly fond of him (he's me in Brawl and his existence in Melee is sort of a joke, given his shield size).
Almost made a really angry post but I won't because it might make me feel better but it's not very productive and it's probably more important to point out that you two are not being very mature about the situation [whining about the other's main, while also defending the silliness on your own as perfectly reasonable? really?] than to indulge my own immaturity.
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And now Thor joins the Brawl
The most incorrect thing I think I've read in anything so far, is in the above quote. Link's arrows killing at 120 is not OP at all. Link is the only one with a projectile kill move that he has to stand completely exposed with the entire time he's getting ready to use it (barring Charizard because of stealth rock setup). He can't fire a killshot on the fly like Samus, Lucario, or ROB. He can't store his projectile.
Your Link isn't very great, no offense. I don't want to say I'm the Link authority here, but I will say I'm at least temporarily the best Link in the community in terms of knowing when and how to use what. Maybe you need to fight my Link again, because you seem to have the wrong idea about bombs.
A long ranged shieldgrab? Okay, so let's be real. When someone is beating on your shield to the point where you actually need to resort to an out of shield option how close to you are they? They're pretty close, because no one would pressure your shield with a projectile in grabbing range. So the range on the grab doesn't matter for this situation at all. Up B out of shield could be safe, but if you get that blocked you're in for a beating. It has enough endlag to effectively get you Falcon Punched on perfect shield. I think it's funny that you're defending the jab buff. That's the one most people seem to vocally have a problem with. The other buffs aren't overkill by any means either. Jab 2 and 3 just makes it so that tether grabbers aren't as likely to shield grab him between slices. Dtilt was needed, fair just made his attack come out a bit faster. I don't think it was needed, but a 10 frame attack is hardly pushing anyone over a boundary.
How you somehow thought I was saying Link's flaws made him sucky is beyond me. Link is great and has been great in Minus for as far as I remember. And I don't believe Glyph ever said ROB sucked either. We're defending brokenness, not suckiness.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never touched Game and Watch. I wouldn't know what he needs, as he seems to be extremely competent with his speed, safety, and KOs. If you can tell me at least 3 reasons why going under FD is a big game changer though let me know. As far as I know, any opponent could run to the other side and setup exactly what they had going for them on the other side before he ever made it back up.
The most incorrect thing I think I've read in anything so far, is in the above quote. Link's arrows killing at 120 is not OP at all. Link is the only one with a projectile kill move that he has to stand completely exposed with the entire time he's getting ready to use it (barring Charizard because of stealth rock setup). He can't fire a killshot on the fly like Samus, Lucario, or ROB. He can't store his projectile.
Your Link isn't very great, no offense. I don't want to say I'm the Link authority here, but I will say I'm at least temporarily the best Link in the community in terms of knowing when and how to use what. Maybe you need to fight my Link again, because you seem to have the wrong idea about bombs.
A long ranged shieldgrab? Okay, so let's be real. When someone is beating on your shield to the point where you actually need to resort to an out of shield option how close to you are they? They're pretty close, because no one would pressure your shield with a projectile in grabbing range. So the range on the grab doesn't matter for this situation at all. Up B out of shield could be safe, but if you get that blocked you're in for a beating. It has enough endlag to effectively get you Falcon Punched on perfect shield. I think it's funny that you're defending the jab buff. That's the one most people seem to vocally have a problem with. The other buffs aren't overkill by any means either. Jab 2 and 3 just makes it so that tether grabbers aren't as likely to shield grab him between slices. Dtilt was needed, fair just made his attack come out a bit faster. I don't think it was needed, but a 10 frame attack is hardly pushing anyone over a boundary.
How you somehow thought I was saying Link's flaws made him sucky is beyond me. Link is great and has been great in Minus for as far as I remember. And I don't believe Glyph ever said ROB sucked either. We're defending brokenness, not suckiness.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never touched Game and Watch. I wouldn't know what he needs, as he seems to be extremely competent with his speed, safety, and KOs. If you can tell me at least 3 reasons why going under FD is a big game changer though let me know. As far as I know, any opponent could run to the other side and setup exactly what they had going for them on the other side before he ever made it back up.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Kienamaru said:
Pretty sure you're trying to bait me with the insult, so I'll just play you when I get back.
The long-range shieldgrab is super good - maybe you don't appreciate it because of your ROB fighting problems, but when a Kirby fsmashs your shield and it's safe on block because Falco's grab range isn't good, you'll appreciate that Link actually can shieldgrab pretty much all the fsmashes, which characters can't do - punishing powerful fsmashes is needed. If they're beating on your shield enough, that's what the nair is for, or the up+b. Falco doesn't jab OoS either and his jab is fantastic - he only has grab and dair OoS which has way less range than nair.
If they're powershielding OoS up+B you either picked the wrong option or are too slow, but it's a plenty powerful punish if you actually know how to punish a move.
If Link is so great why'd he get a slew of buffs while Ness gets these ridiculously stupid nerfs, and it's established that Link is worse than Ness? If this is your idea of balance, then I'm not going to beat around the bush: You're really damn stupid. Or else reverse these Ness nerfs because they're certainly doing him no favors against Link...
Going under FD is important for horizontal recovery reasons - if you can't make it under your recovery is comparatively sucky, and unlike Bowser who flies nowhere when hit and Sheik with the tether grab, GnW is more or less screwed if he loses his second jump, which makes his already mediocre recovery much worse than it needs to be. His recovery range is made worse by the nerf. There's not some other big reason to go under FD, I was using it as a measure so to speak - Minusy recoveries let you go under FD or you're so heavy you go nowhere. Sheik has an invisible airdodge and extremely fast teleport so she can sort of skirt this rule. GnW gets none of that and can't make it under - he has arguably the worst recovery in game thanks to that.
EDIT:
Kienamaru said:
If you want me to join the brawl, I will - I'm just saying I think you're both in the wrong here.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I've played Glyph's Ness, I know what a good Ness is (unless you're calling him out Gold_TSG, and I doubt it). Ness isn't that scary though - super easy to gimp relative to most characters (I've beaten Glyph mainly via offstage dair, because Falco dair is so good, though I wasn't terribly consistent at winning - can look up one of our matches online so you can tell me if maybe Glyph isn't good because there is a match on YT of me facing him) - he's got followups? Meh, DK has those too, as do Ganondorf and Link. But Ness's fair was like his only asset and it was removed - the PK flash buff is mostly a joke and the recovery buff doesn't seem like it's enough to do anything other than prevent laser gimps. Meanwhile he doesn't have much in the way of aerial finishers off fair (you can't bair them and uair should never connect, and dair will only connect if one is sloppy - nair is workable but not really that strong) while others have significantly stronger aerial finishers.
Maybe someone else can see Ness's secret awesomeness, but he's just lacking and weakening his best tool makes it worse. Nerfing a D tier character and raising up a _ tier character (not sure where to put Link, I'd say B or A)? That's not balancing in the slightest, no matter how you spin it.
Maybe someone else can see Ness's secret awesomeness, but he's just lacking and weakening his best tool makes it worse. Nerfing a D tier character and raising up a _ tier character (not sure where to put Link, I'd say B or A)? That's not balancing in the slightest, no matter how you spin it.