The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
Do you want one with separate CSPs?
Sorry for the double post. I heard that's a bad thing to do.
Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
Sorry for the double post. I heard that's a bad thing to do.
Glyph
Moderator
First things first, why was the gravity increased??? Its been asked like 4 times in this thread already and been ignored each time. I want to know the reasoning behind it, as such a global change is yet ANOTHER example of people changing things just because they have the ability to do so. What problem does this change solve? Lol I don't even know if its literally global to all characters or just specific to when they're in ice. Either way....why?
Now, there's a few other things I want to touch on real quick before I head out for work. Meant to respond to these forever ago but kept forgetting.
But its not Samus. This is very similar in the moves, but the gravity change results in a character radically different from what a Brawl Samus player would expect to be playing. This is my biggest complaint with current minus, the BRoom has completely lost sight of the point of Brawl-. You take a character in Brawl, and make them amazing. THEM. That character. Not something that looks like that character but plays a ton differently, be it with new moves for no reason or with random changes to gravity. Not to mention that we've already had an amazing Samus build in the past, just needs slapped back in and she's good to go. Only thing stopping that is the BRoom's ego irt keeping the new stuff they've added in.
To clarify something real quick too, I'm not saying that there's not instances where new moves are good things. You have to meet two major requirements to replace a move: 1. The move has to be nigh useless (lookin at stuff like Charizard's neutral b or Sheik's side b, NOT Link's Fsmash or Ganon's utilt) and 2. The replacement move has to be hella cool and useful. The majority of the new moves in Minus right now fail not one but BOTH of those criteria, meaning they've gotten in because 'hey wouldn't it be cool if ______' instead of 'wouldn't it be useful if____'
Another big problem the BRoom has, they don't look at the whole picture when they balance moves. 'LOOK HOW FEW START UP FRAMES THIS HAS', but they ignore the fact that it does 2% and practically no knockback. Link's jabs get a buff because they're slow, but retain all the power and range they have because they were slow originally. This is why you don't balance of looking at frame data, or even off of when you can kill Mario with a move. You balance off of gameplay. When something is proven against real people to be abusable across the board (sigh and no this does not mean if you can't beat a move it needs nerfed, even if you're a BRoomer. It means even low skill level people can do it to higher up people who know how to beat it on paper). Instead of that we get BRoomers nerfing and buffing based off of gut feelings and what they personally deem too good/not good enough.
'Its better now go find out why' is a horrible reason to give your playerbase for a change, especially when the question was about how the move wasn't working the way they expected. Not a huge deal since it should be going back to the old version anyway though. Ganon nerfs are odd considering wiz kick was already super easy to see coming and one of the freest punishes in the game just be blocking it (again, ignoring the whole picture and focusing in on one part of a move)
Lol TWO frames is a nothing nerf. I already touched on this in my last post, but hitting its startup with such an insignificant change just shows that Kien is unwilling to take an unbiased look at Link. Back when I was in the BRoom and Pin and I resisted buffs to Link's jab and the rest that you're seeing now, we were both accused of not wanting them because we 'hated Link'.
Also lol @ trying to pass the grab reduction off as 'more of a nerf', who do you think is buying that? Regardless I DO really like the new TL but come on at least own up to the buffs.
Now, there's a few other things I want to touch on real quick before I head out for work. Meant to respond to these forever ago but kept forgetting.
But its not Samus. This is very similar in the moves, but the gravity change results in a character radically different from what a Brawl Samus player would expect to be playing. This is my biggest complaint with current minus, the BRoom has completely lost sight of the point of Brawl-. You take a character in Brawl, and make them amazing. THEM. That character. Not something that looks like that character but plays a ton differently, be it with new moves for no reason or with random changes to gravity. Not to mention that we've already had an amazing Samus build in the past, just needs slapped back in and she's good to go. Only thing stopping that is the BRoom's ego irt keeping the new stuff they've added in.
To clarify something real quick too, I'm not saying that there's not instances where new moves are good things. You have to meet two major requirements to replace a move: 1. The move has to be nigh useless (lookin at stuff like Charizard's neutral b or Sheik's side b, NOT Link's Fsmash or Ganon's utilt) and 2. The replacement move has to be hella cool and useful. The majority of the new moves in Minus right now fail not one but BOTH of those criteria, meaning they've gotten in because 'hey wouldn't it be cool if ______' instead of 'wouldn't it be useful if____'
Another big problem the BRoom has, they don't look at the whole picture when they balance moves. 'LOOK HOW FEW START UP FRAMES THIS HAS', but they ignore the fact that it does 2% and practically no knockback. Link's jabs get a buff because they're slow, but retain all the power and range they have because they were slow originally. This is why you don't balance of looking at frame data, or even off of when you can kill Mario with a move. You balance off of gameplay. When something is proven against real people to be abusable across the board (sigh and no this does not mean if you can't beat a move it needs nerfed, even if you're a BRoomer. It means even low skill level people can do it to higher up people who know how to beat it on paper). Instead of that we get BRoomers nerfing and buffing based off of gut feelings and what they personally deem too good/not good enough.
'Its better now go find out why' is a horrible reason to give your playerbase for a change, especially when the question was about how the move wasn't working the way they expected. Not a huge deal since it should be going back to the old version anyway though. Ganon nerfs are odd considering wiz kick was already super easy to see coming and one of the freest punishes in the game just be blocking it (again, ignoring the whole picture and focusing in on one part of a move)
Lol TWO frames is a nothing nerf. I already touched on this in my last post, but hitting its startup with such an insignificant change just shows that Kien is unwilling to take an unbiased look at Link. Back when I was in the BRoom and Pin and I resisted buffs to Link's jab and the rest that you're seeing now, we were both accused of not wanting them because we 'hated Link'.
Also lol @ trying to pass the grab reduction off as 'more of a nerf', who do you think is buying that? Regardless I DO really like the new TL but come on at least own up to the buffs.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I agree with PowerUp.
Also a full Ganon utilt connects to literally nothing because it sends too far behind him. Don't believe me? Level 3 Dedede in training mode on FD - can't even follow up with bair (or if there's a JC I'm missing it and need to know about this).
Why was 'Dorf's anti-projectile game nerfed again? He already doesn't like laser walls, but you make Falco even more of a boss at camping and remove Ganondorf's utilt, which could (or should have been made to) remove traps and hit from awesomely far distances - now it's a boring move that (unless someone gives me proof-positive otherwise) doesn't even combo.
100% AGREE AGREE AGREE with Glyph regarding Samus. And I'm not even saying "I want 2.X.6" [apparently was broken in a bad sense], I just want 3.3 with the few buffs she's gotten to dtilt (no self-damage) and uthrow (5% less to enemy, no damage to her) [keeping screw attack buffs would be awesome too, but aren't needed]. And her combo game was never unreliable anyway, unless you just weren't used to playing Samus (hell, google "Dicks versus Lain SSBB" and watch Lain, a not-bad MK, get 2-0'd, because Dicks is doing fantastic strings IN BRAWL THE GAME EVERYONE HERE PROBS IS LIKE "BUT NO COMBOS ZERO HITSTUN [which ain't even true]") [And FYI, she doesn't even NEED those buffs per se, it's just that she's not top top tier yet, so no reason to re-nerf her just to get back to actual Samus].
Also a full Ganon utilt connects to literally nothing because it sends too far behind him. Don't believe me? Level 3 Dedede in training mode on FD - can't even follow up with bair (or if there's a JC I'm missing it and need to know about this).
Why was 'Dorf's anti-projectile game nerfed again? He already doesn't like laser walls, but you make Falco even more of a boss at camping and remove Ganondorf's utilt, which could (or should have been made to) remove traps and hit from awesomely far distances - now it's a boring move that (unless someone gives me proof-positive otherwise) doesn't even combo.
100% AGREE AGREE AGREE with Glyph regarding Samus. And I'm not even saying "I want 2.X.6" [apparently was broken in a bad sense], I just want 3.3 with the few buffs she's gotten to dtilt (no self-damage) and uthrow (5% less to enemy, no damage to her) [keeping screw attack buffs would be awesome too, but aren't needed]. And her combo game was never unreliable anyway, unless you just weren't used to playing Samus (hell, google "Dicks versus Lain SSBB" and watch Lain, a not-bad MK, get 2-0'd, because Dicks is doing fantastic strings IN BRAWL THE GAME EVERYONE HERE PROBS IS LIKE "BUT NO COMBOS ZERO HITSTUN [which ain't even true]") [And FYI, she doesn't even NEED those buffs per se, it's just that she's not top top tier yet, so no reason to re-nerf her just to get back to actual Samus].
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
I can't vouch for how the back room does things because I'm not in the back room. I will say that I also got the feeling that moves were just being thrown at characters. I don't mind most other moves, but what the heck is this razing eruption thing out of Ike's taunt? I don't think it is even remotely canon and it doesn't feel like it belongs, despite being hella awesome.
Glyph, this isn't the last release of minus. They are going to continue editing and fixing and changing things to function appropriately. They sped up links moves because they were slow, so we have every reason to believe that the moves will be nerfed in terms of damaged. They need to see how strong he is now with the buffs and then cook up a countermeasure next update.
Glyph, this isn't the last release of minus. They are going to continue editing and fixing and changing things to function appropriately. They sped up links moves because they were slow, so we have every reason to believe that the moves will be nerfed in terms of damaged. They need to see how strong he is now with the buffs and then cook up a countermeasure next update.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Adding to whay Glyph said, alot of the changes were very random. Especially since 3.5 a such a solid build (For the most part.) My group and I have decided to keep playing 3.5.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Why dosen't the BR just let everyone play test new builds before releasing as an official build? Now it'll be months before we see any fixes.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Doesn't have to be unanimous. Just majority. I don't know who wanted those jab buffs to link other than Kien.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
i luv this idea. they could add polls beforehand so we can give our opinion.
i also like the global falling speed change as well. In the previous builds, i always felt the game was just a litle faster than n64 speed, and thats not all that fast. added falling speed will boost gameplay speed by some, which makes it closer to the goal the devs set up.
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
Hm...you guys seem upset.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Oh man you dont even know.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
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
strawman much? i never said that speed will make gameplay better, i just said that faster fallspeed just feels better for me than slow-butterfly fallspeed. makes you have to be on your toes more when you fall faster.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
I also like the new gravity. Makes the game feel a lot faster and more fun. All it really did was slightly change the timing of things and doesn't physically harm any character. The characters most effected are ones like diddy kong and luigi who had their fall speeds increased on top of the global increase. This definetly helped diddy kong a lot.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
dang, no need to be hostile. they just probably assume that people would like the change since this game is trying to be fast-paced (which it isn't).
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
Glitch said something?
Last edited by a moderator:
Thor
Well-Known Member
I didn't feel any faster falling (except as Luigi) and Wolf did feel slower, so I felt compelled to ask what the change was (Jiggs wasn't falling any faster either, someone with whom it would be most notable (I think), and Falco fell fast but didn't blaze down).
So once again, what does the global gravity change do? [It would make sense if it was only in ice, since ice fallspeeds seem to be the same regardless of if one is Jiggs or Fox...]
Also it's Glyph not Glitch - two different people.
NEWB the "logical fallacies and what not" you're looking for is probably "confirmation bias."
I think Baby_Sneak is indeed [fall]speed-obsessed, though the comment about "fast for fast's sake" didn't make much sense (but Jiggs with a fast fallspeed LOL). That's probs why Sneak plays Melee and not Brawl, and plays Brawl- Fox, one of the faster fallers. Also I still agree with Glyph's long post 100%+.
Brawl- is kinda sorta like 64, in that getting hit by certain setup attacks can lead to a zero-death (DK utilt...).
So once again, what does the global gravity change do? [It would make sense if it was only in ice, since ice fallspeeds seem to be the same regardless of if one is Jiggs or Fox...]
Also it's Glyph not Glitch - two different people.
NEWB the "logical fallacies and what not" you're looking for is probably "confirmation bias."
I think Baby_Sneak is indeed [fall]speed-obsessed, though the comment about "fast for fast's sake" didn't make much sense (but Jiggs with a fast fallspeed LOL). That's probs why Sneak plays Melee and not Brawl, and plays Brawl- Fox, one of the faster fallers. Also I still agree with Glyph's long post 100%+.
Brawl- is kinda sorta like 64, in that getting hit by certain setup attacks can lead to a zero-death (DK utilt...).
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
again...
1.i dont have melee. my wii is family-edition, it doesnt play any melee games.
2. i switched from fox to squirtle, ICs, charizards, MK, and backed to the zard.
3. i just like stimulating gameplay. definitly not obsessed lol
Thor
Well-Known Member
You've made a lot of character switches recently... and I always thought Fox suited you... explains why you want a general fallspeed increase though.
I'd also swear at some point you said you wanted to be as good at Fox as Mango - maybe I just assumed you had Melee as a result (you certainly wavedash just fine).
And you may find high fallspeeds to be stimulating gameplay, but I know I find various fallspeeds to be stimulating as well - the bobbing and weaving of a good Puff is very entertaining to watch, from a mental side and a movement side, and Peach coming down is stimulating because of how tense it is. Luigi's old form was also very entertaining and stimulating. [Fox is too.] But to each his or her own I guess.
I'd also swear at some point you said you wanted to be as good at Fox as Mango - maybe I just assumed you had Melee as a result (you certainly wavedash just fine).
And you may find high fallspeeds to be stimulating gameplay, but I know I find various fallspeeds to be stimulating as well - the bobbing and weaving of a good Puff is very entertaining to watch, from a mental side and a movement side, and Peach coming down is stimulating because of how tense it is. Luigi's old form was also very entertaining and stimulating. [Fox is too.] But to each his or her own I guess.