The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
I'm just going to get the Zeus ones....honestly.
Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!
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PowerUp
Well-Known Member
What I mean to ask is: HOW are buffs/nerfs decided upon? I seriously doubt that there is a Squirtle player wrecking shop here, and I've never heard anyone suggest that Link needed more speed on his melee attacks. Is it just based off of how well the backroom plays the cast, along with some reactionary decisions in the following version?
NEWB
Well-Known Member
They have play testers in the back room that look at certain things more deeply then we do. As gold said, he didn't know how the ikecopter could kill so early until he was shown by someone in the BR that figured it out. Same case is likely with squirtle. Our biggest job is pointing out bugs for them to fix and to pitch ideas to them and each other. They DO consider the popular opinion of us as well. Read what it said about Ike's NS self damage removal. Instead of finding a way to make it work with Ike, they removed it because the player base here felt it was unrewarding, so they chose to ditch it.
As kien has mentioned, they also look at frame data.
I can't really speak for how valued our opinions and suggestions are, but I can count four of my suggestions that made it in minus, one being removed.
As kien has mentioned, they also look at frame data.
I can't really speak for how valued our opinions and suggestions are, but I can count four of my suggestions that made it in minus, one being removed.
Squirtle was never wrecking anyone, however his Up smash true combod out of Dash attack. Which had super armor on it. It still true combos, but now Up smash doesn't kill at 80. Also having super armor on jumps is just not right for anyone. It had the same startup as Nair in terms of armor but didn't last as long.
Link on the other hand had the slowest jabs in the game. It's probably not something highly known, but Link had close to no out of shield options, and frame wise, the slowest attacks in the game by far. While he is still slower than most he isn't the absolute slowest anymore as he never should have been.
Link on the other hand had the slowest jabs in the game. It's probably not something highly known, but Link had close to no out of shield options, and frame wise, the slowest attacks in the game by far. While he is still slower than most he isn't the absolute slowest anymore as he never should have been.
PowerUp
Well-Known Member
I don't know about Squirtle, but as for Link, his jump->nair OOS is fast, deals good damage, and creates the distance he needs. I'm still interested in learning more about the testing process. Are you mostly doing mechanical testing (which is what Squirtle's jump and Mario's Fsmash sound like), or are you playing more matches and analyzing the techniques BR members used to win?
NEWB
Well-Known Member
That only gives link one option potentially. I don't know about his fair, but his dtilt is very slow and his jabs should be able to work out of shield since everyone else does. It could get a damage nerf in exchange though. Aren't links jabs strong because they were slow originally?
DIjoe
Member
OK, so I'm a first time poster, but i've been playing for the better part of a year. By my groups estimation, link was already one of the strongest characters in the cast. Buffing his boxing by speeding up his frames seems to be too much because of the crazy strength of his projectile game, however i haven't seen what the new bomb pull time is like.
ness REALLY didnt need nerfs IMO, if anything his PK fire could use a buff because its the same as vanilla. I know his Fair was crazy, but his aerials are all he has.
Peach lacks kill pressure and nerfing the Nair seems to hut that some more. maybe im missing something but i think she didnt need nerfed. I am excited to try out her new throws.
also, bowser is CRAZY now with all the super armor back. his combo game and damage racking is strong enough
ness REALLY didnt need nerfs IMO, if anything his PK fire could use a buff because its the same as vanilla. I know his Fair was crazy, but his aerials are all he has.
Peach lacks kill pressure and nerfing the Nair seems to hut that some more. maybe im missing something but i think she didnt need nerfed. I am excited to try out her new throws.
also, bowser is CRAZY now with all the super armor back. his combo game and damage racking is strong enough
Thor
Well-Known Member
PK fire has a jump cancel [and Ness fair true-combo'd from dthrow, and at high percents it's DI so you can get fair'd twice, SDI perfectly, or DI and die off the sides because you didn't want to eat the second fair, which is really good], two thirds of Bowser's new armor is his fsmash (so just stay away a little) and he's massive combo bait (SO easy to rest him, and the knee is f-air-ly easy to land as well), Peach didn't need the nerf in my opinion either on her nair. Link is pretty good in my opinion too, his dtilt was really meh, not sure how good the jab buffs actually are.
I'm complaining because Falco is better now, but will likely get nerfed once my camping game is in shape, and once I start repeatedly laser-locking people for stupid amounts of damage, at which point, the lasers won't be reverted, but Falco will lose other stuff, and end up net worse. Sort of like when Bent predicted that one nerf way back when (the nerf to blast burn that never happened, but let's not go back to that beyond this reference).
If this doesn't happen, then while Falco now has SLIGHTLY more trouble landing KO moves (can't laser -> fsmash as easily from afar), he's a much stronger defensive player (with a NASTY lock that's easy to set up and DOES lead to KO if you're up close - nair -> laser -> f or usmash) so I'd be perfectly fine with it anyway - some tech skill I have to get ready (like I said, side+b -> jump -> b-reversed lasers) but that's not TOO hard. So if you don't hit Falco with the nerf machine you apparently almost smacked ROB with (and that Ivysaur once touched accidentally), I'm totally cool with this, just have to adapt (and was super surprised at first).
I'm just sort of complaining because I think it will be nerfed, and nerfed harder, so it's like buffing Falco short-term and nerfing him long term, which I don't want. And slow laser walls were pretty hilarious and useful simultaniously, though a nightmare for Ike.
I also wish it had been noted in the changelog, but w/e.
Also, was Wolf's laser nerfed from 3 to 1 for any reason? The slow laser doesn't seem to help him nearly as much as Falco, since he doesn't auto-cancel it on landing... could you make Wolf's blaster auto-cancel on landing? That would be SICK.
Still grumpy about Samus fallspeed, but Luigi's new fallspeed is ok (not as drastic as Samus's) and I appreciate Wolf not falling as fast as a rock thrown downward. Haven't tested Diddy's yet.
EDIT: Also, if Pit's up+b is not like this yet, I feel like he should be able to get his up+b's remaining time back if he's hit out of it and use it again, but only 70% of the remaining time [so he loses 30% of it] (so getting hit out twice right away reduces the time by just over half) so that his recovery isn't "hit him once while he's in angel wings and if it's a meteor he's done") or is this already the case?
And once again, what does the global gravity change do/how does it affect characters?
Kienamaru said:
I'm complaining because Falco is better now, but will likely get nerfed once my camping game is in shape, and once I start repeatedly laser-locking people for stupid amounts of damage, at which point, the lasers won't be reverted, but Falco will lose other stuff, and end up net worse. Sort of like when Bent predicted that one nerf way back when (the nerf to blast burn that never happened, but let's not go back to that beyond this reference).
If this doesn't happen, then while Falco now has SLIGHTLY more trouble landing KO moves (can't laser -> fsmash as easily from afar), he's a much stronger defensive player (with a NASTY lock that's easy to set up and DOES lead to KO if you're up close - nair -> laser -> f or usmash) so I'd be perfectly fine with it anyway - some tech skill I have to get ready (like I said, side+b -> jump -> b-reversed lasers) but that's not TOO hard. So if you don't hit Falco with the nerf machine you apparently almost smacked ROB with (and that Ivysaur once touched accidentally), I'm totally cool with this, just have to adapt (and was super surprised at first).
I'm just sort of complaining because I think it will be nerfed, and nerfed harder, so it's like buffing Falco short-term and nerfing him long term, which I don't want. And slow laser walls were pretty hilarious and useful simultaniously, though a nightmare for Ike.
I also wish it had been noted in the changelog, but w/e.
Also, was Wolf's laser nerfed from 3 to 1 for any reason? The slow laser doesn't seem to help him nearly as much as Falco, since he doesn't auto-cancel it on landing... could you make Wolf's blaster auto-cancel on landing? That would be SICK.
Still grumpy about Samus fallspeed, but Luigi's new fallspeed is ok (not as drastic as Samus's) and I appreciate Wolf not falling as fast as a rock thrown downward. Haven't tested Diddy's yet.
EDIT: Also, if Pit's up+b is not like this yet, I feel like he should be able to get his up+b's remaining time back if he's hit out of it and use it again, but only 70% of the remaining time [so he loses 30% of it] (so getting hit out twice right away reduces the time by just over half) so that his recovery isn't "hit him once while he's in angel wings and if it's a meteor he's done") or is this already the case?
And once again, what does the global gravity change do/how does it affect characters?
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The changelist has been updated to include Falco's laser speed revert.
It's a tweak. Fast in some parts, slower in others.
It's a tweak. Fast in some parts, slower in others.
Glyph
Moderator
Nerfs/buffs typically are decided by whoever is going to code them. Very little is agreed on by the entire BRoom before getting through.
Completely agree with this entire post. So many changes made for horrible reasons.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Thor, I really don't like how arrogant you tend to present yourself when responding to things stated. It's fine if you have a disagreement, but I'm not a fan of the whole feeling like you're telling me I'm wrong for explaining something to you. You're far from the only Samus player here. There is nothing wrong with Samus right now, and you're not the only one who worked hard to learn her while she was floaty. I relearned her in almost no time at all, and I've already started wrecking face with her as she is. She's a very powerful and capable character now, and you simply need to learn her again, just like I had to.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the only person on the forum who complains about Zelda? She's really not that hard to deal with once you learn where her ranged hitboxes are, and how to shield then punish her warping. I played a 30-stock match against my best local player's Luigi recently, and he stayed even with my Zelda the whole time. It came down to one stock, and Luigi won.
What exactly are you having trouble with against Zelda? Once you breach her defenses, she's in big trouble.
I think Zelda is great as-is, and should not be nerfed or tweaked any more.
I agree that Jiggs should lose some jumps. She can float up to the top corner, Rest, and then return to the stage.
One or two more combos into Rest would be OK with me.
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Thor
Well-Known Member
I think Bash hates Zelda because his Jiggs is incredibly air-based (he can't find a use for utilt... must Jiggs ditto him), and you almost have to air-dodge pre-emptively against Zelda, so one mis-timed air dodge and ZAP! Lightning Kick distant hitbox in the face, teleported Zelda, and back to square one.
He might also just have Zelda problems. Never faced a strong Zelda myself, so I can't say much about her, other than dtilt of new old (the shortest one) did seem pretty terrible when fsmash could do the same thing (almost) but better.
He might also just have Zelda problems. Never faced a strong Zelda myself, so I can't say much about her, other than dtilt of new old (the shortest one) did seem pretty terrible when fsmash could do the same thing (almost) but better.
A wifi GCT link has been added to the OP.
Airdodge while charging an arrow in the air to utilize this gift from the gods.
DIjoe
Member
1 other thing, why are we buffing ike? he's up there with the top of the cast already. i don't know if any of you know how to properly play ike if you think he needs help. his jab and followups are just silly. my group has an ike main, and it's nuts the control he has. we'll need to post some videos and set up some online matches.
about the yoshi change, the fact that Fair doesnt impale anymore, how is that not a nerf? I havent gotten to mess around with it yet, but unless he can reliably combo out of it, it IS a direct nerf. not complaining per se, just curious.
about the yoshi change, the fact that Fair doesnt impale anymore, how is that not a nerf? I havent gotten to mess around with it yet, but unless he can reliably combo out of it, it IS a direct nerf. not complaining per se, just curious.
Yoshi can definitely combo out of it. It can even lead to kills that look cooler than anything that was impossible with Impale.
well good then
GoldenMasterSword
Member
I'm pretty sure than Ganon's full nair still doesn't combo correctly. The combo meter in training mode says otherwise, and I've seen CPUs so much as jump into the third and fourth hits. It kinda still technically combos, but I'd rather see a full four hits rather than two and two on the combo meter.