Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

[The Concept]

we haven't seen a good peach in action

I have.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

we haven't seen a good peach in action.

heh heh

 

[Baby_Sneak]

heh heh

Thats a decent peach
THIS is a good peach ( i know its vbrawl, but it can be applied to brawl- in some ways).

 

[owo]

 

[The Concept]

Owo....at first I couldn't tell if this video was to showcase a good Peach, or Pit's survivability.

 

[owo]

the discussion has been about peach for the past couple pages so yes the vid was to demonstrate Pit's godly recovery

 

[The Concept]

Hahahahaha. That's why I specified "at first".

 

[Thor]

That's probably also a good example of how good Kie is.

@ owo Holy... that shieldbreak combo to open was CRAZY! And the Pit STILL almost brought it back... might have to look for that Pit more.

Also, Slayerz is a really good American Peach, but I don't feel like linking videos right now, because I'm going to go get dinner really soon.

 

[DIjoe]

i'd really like to show you guys my peach, because i feel very confident in it. but i'll have to get my online setup working. I got to money match King Beef a while back and try out his peach as well. love that princess

 

[Rosetta-Hime]

Being a Peach only player, her projectlie game could seriously use a boost... Like most have said, fighting against Link, she is pretty much helpless compared to his god-like projectile game. Her side special cancel is something I find myself using a lot for manuvering and atacking...
Being a part of the backroom, I wish I had a say in slightly buffng her, but I'm just an animation person. Oh well, I hope she's better in the net version.

 

[Neville]

That buff wouldn't break her. Nair has a very short duration, so you would have to time it carefully. It also has no range, so it would not be abusable as an approach. Finally, you can't perform a nair while holding a turnip, so you must choose between waging a projectile war, and attempting to approach through your opponent's projectiles.

If you are floating you don't throw turnips. Ever.

we haven't seen a good peach in action.

We need to play soon.

 

[moneer]

I'm having an issue with minus . not sure if its been reported before but in the subspace emissary when i reach a dark character. the game locks up and im forced to force shutdown my wii.,

 

[NEWB]

I haven't heard that problem!

Anything to say about it, minus devs? You guys been messing with the dark minus textures mentioned once before?

 

[Pin Clock]

We actually haven't messed with the game's Dark textures. I made mine from scratch.

That being said, Subspace issues are known, and are being looked into.

 

[Kien]

Being a Peach only player, her projectlie game could seriously use a boost... Like most have said, fighting against Link, she is pretty much helpless compared to his god-like projectile game. Her side special cancel is something I find myself using a lot for manuvering and atacking...
Being a part of the backroom, I wish I had a say in slightly buffng her, but I'm just an animation person. Oh well, I hope she's better in the net version.

You do have a say in buffing her, you just never speak up. I'd be careful with Peach buffs, though. I think the only way to buff her would be by increasing her item throw strength.

I have the same ugly bars on my tv.

I really like that buff to peach's Nair. Anyone wanna tell me how this would be broken? I know that this may turn many of her mismatches to MUs now in her favor.

Those ugly bars.. uh, did you change your game's screen settings? Or maybe your Wii's?

That'd be broken because she then overcomes her only real weakness and loses bad matchups altogether. Even Link while extremely good is weak to reflectors characters, fast attackers, and those who can juggle him.

Peach needs buffs. I'm not competitive and even I know that. She can build damage, but SideB, fAir, and fSmash are the only kill moves. I don't play her well personally. The CPU isn't bad though....

You forgot about Up smash which kills on sweetspot in the 80s, and Fthrow which is pretty strong too.

 

[Thor]

You do have a say in buffing her, you just never speak up. I'd be careful with Peach buffs, though. I think the only way to buff her would be by increasing her item throw strength.

*facepalm* Did you not read the suggestion to make nair immune to projectiles?

That'd be broken because she then overcomes her only real weakness and loses bad matchups altogether. Even Link while extremely good is weak to reflectors characters, fast attackers, and those who can juggle him.

Lol no, she still would lose to Fox (already does and he can run away and laser, could still without such a buff, and he can also just fight her up close) and her KO power is low enough that people with high KO power and comparable neutral games (Ganondorf) can still beat her in pretty good.

This isn't Captain Falcon, who can burn the pavement at a moment's notice. It's Peach. C'mon now, you made Link faster and made his non-projectile game stronger to reduce weaknesses to reflector characters and fast attackers, and everyone is weak to characters who juggle them (that's not even a weakness, just a fact, and he has bombs as an anti-juggle tool). Peach could use a boost in this regard too - and Link's MUs against reflector characters was never that bad to begin with, while Peach's is... and if you don't make nair fully immune (like with Raptor Boost), one can still throw enough stuff at her to hit her eventually - you make this sound game-breaking before you've tried it, and after just looking at her nair, it's really not.

You forgot about Up smash which kills on sweetspot in the 80s, and Fthrow which is pretty strong too.

fthrow will never KO early if your opponent knows what DI is, and it needs to be on the edge to get a KO at a reasonable percent (pretty sure it still KOs later than Ness bthrow at same positions (Except they face opposite directions, not sure though) and unlike Ness bthrow there's even more time to DI it if one is unprepared)). Also lol at sweetspot usmash - that's like saying Wario has earliest KOs in game because of that tiny OHKO hitbox on his crate during a taunt or Ganondorf does because of Warlock Punch - sure someone can land it occasionally, but sweetspot usmash on Peach is not easy to land, which makes it very inconsistent.

Don't be so stingy with the buffs - it was already agreed in the tier list thread that Peach is not high tier, but there were plenty of buffs to an already high-tier character (Link), so be nice to Peach and give her a helping hand.

 

[NEWB]

Buffing link and not peach is pretty laughable kien. Her Usmash is extremely punishable and has no setups. Same with fthrow, which is hard to do because she has no grab range.

To be fair Thor, her turnips are anti juggle tools. She also has a counter. Links bomb pull got nerfed too.

Peach isn't just weak to projectiles as Thor said. Many of her attacks are slow and laggy, making her weak to fast attackers and characters that have decent range. A lot of characters in minus gained range on their moves, while peach really didn't.

This is why you can't entirely balance a game around frame data kien. There is more to it then that. Your gonna have to be more specific in denying peach buffs.

 

[Thor]

To be fair Thor, her turnips are anti juggle tools. She also has a counter. Links bomb pull got nerfed too.

You say this, but Link pulls bombs no slower than Peach pulls turnips, and I swear Link actually pulls projectiles faster.

Also, while Peach gets out of low percent juggles a bit easier, Link gets out of high percent juggles (think Marth on Fox at 100% on FD in Melee) much easier without having to burn resources beyond projectiles, because him throwing one and fastfalling makes it tricky to stop his landing and relaunch him, especially if he hits the bomb, while Peach can throw a turnip, fastfall, and if it's not stitch/doteyes the person can have recovered and punished (or dodge and smack her slow-falling figure easier than dodging a bomb and stopping Link's meteoric decent). Yeah she can burn a float to mix it up, but using recovery resources just to get back down is a bad idea, because if one is hit things get worse, and while she can Peach Bomber and go offstage to recover, she's now stuck offstage, which isn't where Peach wants to be against much of the cast (if I'm not mistaken, unless people know what "using lift" or whatever it's called is and can do that in Minus, she has kind of bad ledge options - I do know it somehow lets her get on stage very very fast from the ledge with no lag, often fast enough to powershield Mach Tornado, but I'm unclear on details (Saw it done in a Slayzerz versus Tyrant video)).

Admittedly they each have rather strong options to get back down from up high, but saying Link is "weak to people who can juggle him" is true of literally everyone (if Ganondorf is using the right moves at low percent, he can juggle even lightweight Jiggs, so being juggled is just a thing, not a weakness).

Baiting Toad is very doable and makes counters risky, though it does help every small once in a while.

I chose nAir over Peach Bomber because fast/semi-invulnerable approaches are the worst and most overused mechanic in Minus. Such moves invariably become the primary if not sole approach for the characters that possess them, and it dumbs the game down. You should have to choose between offense and defense; attacking AND freely passing through your opponent's attack at the same time should not be a reliable option. There must be some kind of risk, otherwise you have no reason not to throw the same move all game.

EVERYTHING can be baited and punished - probably the #2 rule (#1 being "Don't get hit"), so even if a move is both offensive and defensive, if it doesn't provide full invulnerability it can be countered, and the fact that such a move would be the "best" option means that while it would be used, one has to be smart with it or they'll get rekt. I do understand what you're saying, and now think that nair is perfectly fine as something to give projectile immunity, but it's not really a bad mechanic per se, it just makes a character's options stronger (if you predict Falcon's Raptor Boost, it's really easy to punish in my opinion).

EDIT: Think I learned what that "using lift" stuff is - if you ledgejump as Peach, but after pressing jump immediately hold jump again and hold down then release down you can land on stage with a bit invulnerability, namely the frames left over from the ledge jump animation [it's enough to powershield Mach Tornado in vBrawl]. Since Minus seems to have taken away a good chunk of ledge related invulnerability I'm not sure this is any good in Minus.

 

[PowerUp]

Buffing link and not peach is pretty laughable kien.

This. Backroom favoritism is a detriment to the game. If you continue to treat this project like your personal "lol I always wanted my character to be OP" build, you're going to be forced to compete with better balanced alternatives before long.

EVERYTHING can be baited and punished - probably the #2 rule (#1 being "Don't get hit"), so even if a move is both offensive and defensive, if it doesn't provide full invulnerability it can be countered, and the fact that such a move would be the "best" option means that while it would be used, one has to be smart with it or they'll get rekt. I do understand what you're saying, and now think that nair is perfectly fine as something to give projectile immunity, but it's not really a bad mechanic per se, it just makes a character's options stronger (if you predict Falcon's Raptor Boost, it's really easy to punish in my opinion).

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Just because something has a hurtbox doesn't mean it can be punished with any reasonable frequency if at all. I'm sorry to say, but you don't have a reputation as a ROB killer (rotor->aerial cancel, safe projectiles). Are you baiting and punishing Fox Illusion and its cancels? How about Ike's sideB and Aether? Extremespeed and double team? Are you getting alot of KOs on Falco by baiting out lasers? You could be psychic, and your reads still aren't going to change the facts that Charizard should ALWAYS set stealth rocks at the ledge while you are recovering, or that Olimar is going to bombard you with pikmin the second he is out of melee range.

 

[NEWB]

I don't think kien was showing favoritism with link. Link was just looked at by him for two reasons.

One is that he is in charge of handling link I believe.

Two is that link is also his main, so kien knows a lot about link, so he is the one that looks at him. He was going to get looked at before other characters by default because kien can work easier with link then other characters. Not to say he doesn't look at other characters. He will just edit the ones he knows how to do, which is his JOB.

Of this weren't true, we wouldn't have changes like kien mentioned being put in without other devs knowing about. You can't fault him for that entirely cuz minus doesn't have a lot of devs in the first place.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I don't understand how anyone could think Peach is bad. Comparing her to Link is laughable. Even for someone of my skill, I haaaaate fighting a good Peach. She is by far worse to fight than Link is because she has more options and trickery to her thanks to her floating. Who cares if she's light and easier to kill at lower %s? She needs a weakness somewhere. Only characters who don't already feel solid get changes, and a lot of those Link buffs were a mistake as well, which are being taken care of.

 

[Glyph]

What's the name of this good peach you're afraid of? Do you have any replays against them?

That whole post boils down to 'peach is good, trust me I would know' but you don't do anything to actually support your argument outside of calling her tricky.

 

[PowerUp]

Tell me, what is a "good peach" going to do what I throw a boomerang, laser,
fireball, bomb, aura sphere, homing missile, or even another turnip?

A) stay in the air and continue approach/mind games
B) air dodge and fall to the ground in order to avoid damage

Cuz I've only seen B so far.

 

[Kien]

Tell me, what is a "good peach" going to do what I throw a boomerang, laser,
fireball, bomb, aura sphere, homing missile, or even another turnip?

A) stay in the air and continue approach/mind games
B) air dodge and fall to the ground in order to avoid damage

Cuz I've only seen B so far.

Why would she airdodge? She has enough float time to go well out of the angle and range of anything Link or ROB can do. Sure Link can throw a bomb up, but she can just slide to the front or back. Tell you what, I'll see if I can find the password for my internet, and you can fight my Peach tonight. If she just plain sucks against projectiles we'll see about getting rid of her weakness. But if I can beat your anti Peach characters, well...

 

[Kien]

*facepalm* Did you not read the suggestion to make nair immune to projectiles?

I did and the entirety of the BR sees it as a horrible idea.

fthrow will never KO early if your opponent knows what DI is

That problem has been solved, just saying.

but there were plenty of buffs to an already high-tier character (Link), so be nice to Peach and give her a helping hand.

That really wasn't plenty. Peach is getting more buffs this update than anyone in recent history, and I'm pretty sure Link is getting more nerfs than all of Max ROB combined.

Buffing link and not peach is pretty laughable kien. Her Usmash is extremely punishable and has no setups. Same with fthrow, which is hard to do because she has no grab range.

Many of her attacks are slow and laggy, making her weak to fast attackers and characters that have decent range. A lot of characters in minus gained range on their moves, while peach really didn't.

This is why you can't entirely balance a game around frame data kien. There is more to it then that. Your gonna have to be more specific in denying peach buffs.

Speaking of frame data... Peach has a 1 frame jab, that combos into her smashes thanks to hitstun. It also combos into her dash attack which combos into her smashes. It even combos into her grabs. And with her throw changes this can either combo into aerials or a kill throw. You guys act like i don't play Peach as one of my better characters. There's a reason I've been so hesitant on buffing her. You know that she can pretty much instakill anyone with their back to the edge with dash attack into dtilt? It lifts them off the ground and meteors them. You know that she can toss a turnip and if she predicts they'll block it just rush in and grab while they're shielded because of shield stun? If they break out of stun she can retreat and try again with no hazard to her health. I nerfed her nair because it was too good. The people saying Peach is bad are probably the same ones who think that Ness is a glass cannon.

This. Backroom favoritism is a detriment to the game. If you continue to treat this project like your personal "lol I always wanted my character to be OP" build, you're going to be forced to compete with better balanced alternatives before long.

If Backroom favoritism was a thing, you'd see nerfs to pretty much everyone that isn't Link, Sonic, TL, Pit, Ike, and Zelda. The fact is, that you have no idea what you're talking about in this particular situation, what you see happening isn't favoritism. It's a mixture of experimentation, and small tweaks. Everyone cries Link is OP now, but I'm almost certain that not everyone here can tell a 2 frame difference. (don't worry he won't be next update) And PowerUp. You should go ahed and play as the entire roster on a pro level so you can offer up suggestions of better balanced alternatives. The 4 or so PSAers in the BR could use some help.