Brawl Minus 3.3 is BACK!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
Overseer
Member
If that Riivo code works, then this is absolutely amazing because I play pretty much every Brawl overhaul mod and have too many SD cards as it is.
On some characters;
Olimar is much more fun and involving to use. I love how his side B works now.
Pichu is great. His static mechanic is pretty interesting but very rarely seen. Would it be too broken if it happened anytime a foe made contact with him? Perhaps make it a percentage of the times a foe makes contact, if that's even possible? There's no knockback and the damage is minimal, and I'm always for more trolling options.
Ice Climbers seem more fun to use and almost certainly better. I rarely used them before just because they didn't feel very Minusy, but that seems liable to change now.
Peach and TLink needed these buffs, thank you. The Sheik nerfs are fair, as is the Zelda nerf (that dash ranged hitbox was really huge). Charizard's Blast Burn has a lot of start up lag. I mean a lot. It didn't strike me as powerful and its aim is limited, but I've only used it twice or thrice so far so I may very well be wrong.
On some characters;
Olimar is much more fun and involving to use. I love how his side B works now.
Pichu is great. His static mechanic is pretty interesting but very rarely seen. Would it be too broken if it happened anytime a foe made contact with him? Perhaps make it a percentage of the times a foe makes contact, if that's even possible? There's no knockback and the damage is minimal, and I'm always for more trolling options.
Ice Climbers seem more fun to use and almost certainly better. I rarely used them before just because they didn't feel very Minusy, but that seems liable to change now.
Peach and TLink needed these buffs, thank you. The Sheik nerfs are fair, as is the Zelda nerf (that dash ranged hitbox was really huge). Charizard's Blast Burn has a lot of start up lag. I mean a lot. It didn't strike me as powerful and its aim is limited, but I've only used it twice or thrice so far so I may very well be wrong.
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Thor
Well-Known Member
Blast Burn is more of an edgeguard thing, in my opinion - it's also much better if you manage to set up a favorable Stealth Rock (hide behind it and shoot - a fair bit of shield damage if they don't try to AD/spotdodge), and it does 25% with fairly high knockback scaling. It's sort of like the Falcon Punch in that it can be good, but it's very situational and often more of a surprise option. It's also good in teams as an anti-air if your ally is fighting in front on the ground (and if they get hit airborne during startup, you can aim it along the ground to punish anyone on the other team who's still on the ground). It's also just better in general on larger stages because of the startup. The angling is somewhat limited [3 angles I think] but I still like it more than Flamethrower.
I'm sure others can also go into its uses better than I.
Other Aether
Mediator
Please no. Blast Burn being hard to aim is a balancer for how excellent it is, especially in tandem with Rock Smash. After an hour of practice, I already have 100% accuracy from any distance within it's range with it, so it can't be that hard. I like that it's something that requires practice, so other people can't just pick up Charizard and spam it.
You can aim it in almost any direction. The direction it goes depends on how close to the end you start pressing up/down. I don't think tilt/smash aiming makes a difference for the direction.
EDIT: For easy practice, make a long, flat (large) custom stage with most of the blocks on one side of the screen. Then, in the middle of the open gap, put a two-wide platform. It should look something like this: -- ______ then, 2v2 2 bowsers with a rated 9 ally who likes to hit foes up. Maybe Luigi. Camp the edge of the flat side further from the spawn platform with rock smash/blast burn. Try to hit the Bowsers as they fly through the air. When you've got that, 3v1 3 rated 9 snakes and do the same campy thing. They can't break it if you play right, Snake loves getting up to nice heights, and he's a good size. Just practice shooting them. Remember, angle straight down to make it go low to the stage. After that, 3v1 a Snake, Bowser and Jigglypuff. Then 3 Jigglypuffs. Jigglypuffs are fast in the air and fall slowly, so they're good moving target practice.
For easier to set up practice, just fight a snake on final destination and camp him. You probably won't learn as fast, but it still works.
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Other Aether
Mediator
It probably will, but I don't actually care. I use whichever version of anything I feel like. For instance, I prefer Donkey Kong with his heal taunt, so I just didn't update his files. I just only use what I feel like, since my internet is too abysmal to play online anyways.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Honestly, I think Pichu's healing taunt needs to heal it AT LEAST 10%, but that's me. I'd be okay with DK's taunt being slowed a bit and healing him 4% (so that he can usually get 4% between a stock, or 8% if he's fast + a star KO).
I forsee Blast Burn getting a small knockback growth nerf and going to 20% damage, not 25%, but... that's it. I think it would be wrong for the devs to nerf beyond that.
That said, no nerf to it is fine by me!
I still feel like I either suck as Falco, or else he's just not as overwhelming as the rest of the cast. I feel I have to be extremely cautious as Falco and don't have the comboing options others have. That said, his reflector and (if they aren't rushing you down) his lasers allow you to play at what one person I know calls "Mew2King-levels of gay." I think I used it like 4 times in a row vs ICs (CaptainEllipse I think) without getting punished, and it's one of the only ways for me to hit Gold_TSG's Marth [or his DK easily] - it's just that silly. I also like using side+b -> usmash, but it's pretty gimmicky and readable.
As for Blast Burn aiming, I run hackless so that won't work, but for me, the 3 angles I can easily do (none, down, up) actually do a lot of work for me.
I forsee Blast Burn getting a small knockback growth nerf and going to 20% damage, not 25%, but... that's it. I think it would be wrong for the devs to nerf beyond that.
That said, no nerf to it is fine by me!
I still feel like I either suck as Falco, or else he's just not as overwhelming as the rest of the cast. I feel I have to be extremely cautious as Falco and don't have the comboing options others have. That said, his reflector and (if they aren't rushing you down) his lasers allow you to play at what one person I know calls "Mew2King-levels of gay." I think I used it like 4 times in a row vs ICs (CaptainEllipse I think) without getting punished, and it's one of the only ways for me to hit Gold_TSG's Marth [or his DK easily] - it's just that silly. I also like using side+b -> usmash, but it's pretty gimmicky and readable.
As for Blast Burn aiming, I run hackless so that won't work, but for me, the 3 angles I can easily do (none, down, up) actually do a lot of work for me.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
See, you get it. I'm gonna quote your post from the other topic, because it belongs here:
That's the spirit of Minus! To me, at least.
If it's Broken, Break it until it's Fixed.
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Thor
Well-Known Member
For Ike, if we don't get a slightly changed 1.01 Ike back, I'd like to at least see Eruption get triple charge points on contact (it charges NSM 3X the damage it does) and jab3 and counter charge the gauge at double speed (so Counter and jab3 give twice as many charge points as it does damage to the opponent). This would at least marginally buff the mode, and give Ike a reason to use Eruption... well, ever.
I'd like to see a cancel on Ganondorf utilt (i.e, being able to roll out of it) at any time before his foot starts to come down, and the same kind of cancel for the first ~20-30 frames of Warlock punch startup - if you commit, you commit, but now you don't have to commit as much.
I'd like to see a cancel on Ganondorf utilt (i.e, being able to roll out of it) at any time before his foot starts to come down, and the same kind of cancel for the first ~20-30 frames of Warlock punch startup - if you commit, you commit, but now you don't have to commit as much.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
That's not how it works. It's not possible to balance any kind of game with only buffs in mind. If they did that, they would constantly be buffing to infinity, which would be a ton more work. There has to be a boundary, and quite frankly, that boundary is already fairly well established.
And I'm not very much inclined to listen to the opinions of anyone that starts believing that they are smarter then the devs and that they think they know what the game is all about when they themselves are not designers. This mod isn't meant to be nit picked like that. By doing so, you are harming the very integrity of the game/mod as a whole! By just ignoring their changes and the reasons behind them, you avoid understanding what the game really is.
The only reason why you play minus is because you want to be op? That there is no reason to even play this mod otherwise? Everything is just wrong with that claim! Play the game as it's designed to! You would also find that other mods, like pm, are exactly the same as minus, just with different standards. If you can only see minus from this angle, you aren't really looking at what the game is actually doing.
Maybe you are right or maybe not. I just don't like it because that seems like a real cheap shot since the devs don't come here too much to really defend their design. I'm not saying or believing that they do everything right (I'm not sure what they are doing with samus anymore. Just revert to 2.6 and work from there)They are the designers. Give respect where respect is do without defacing them.
And I'm not very much inclined to listen to the opinions of anyone that starts believing that they are smarter then the devs and that they think they know what the game is all about when they themselves are not designers. This mod isn't meant to be nit picked like that. By doing so, you are harming the very integrity of the game/mod as a whole! By just ignoring their changes and the reasons behind them, you avoid understanding what the game really is.
The only reason why you play minus is because you want to be op? That there is no reason to even play this mod otherwise? Everything is just wrong with that claim! Play the game as it's designed to! You would also find that other mods, like pm, are exactly the same as minus, just with different standards. If you can only see minus from this angle, you aren't really looking at what the game is actually doing.
Maybe you are right or maybe not. I just don't like it because that seems like a real cheap shot since the devs don't come here too much to really defend their design. I'm not saying or believing that they do everything right (I'm not sure what they are doing with samus anymore. Just revert to 2.6 and work from there)They are the designers. Give respect where respect is do without defacing them.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Honestly, what is the big deal about the NS mode change? Ike still plays perfectly fine as a whole and is still very strong. He isn't much more frightening in NS as he is without. The only thing frightening about him in NS mode was the stupid counter eruption. I've been maiming Ike since vbrawl and he feels just great to me. Feels much more natural to enter NS mode without needing to activate it myself.
As for why they changed it, I have to think that it has to with the general theme of the patch, which I believe was balance, consistent playstyles, and new features. Look at what they took from ness. They basically said that they wanted ness to play more like ness. I have to think the same could be said with Ike.
As for why they changed it, I have to think that it has to with the general theme of the patch, which I believe was balance, consistent playstyles, and new features. Look at what they took from ness. They basically said that they wanted ness to play more like ness. I have to think the same could be said with Ike.
Overseer
Member
I never understood why some people seem to think that the devs shouldn't actually nerf anything for balance.
I've seen this too many times before "Minus was ruined when they started trying to balance things".
No one complains when PM nerfs things (2.5 Sonic, pre 3.0 Ivy, etc)
It's as if people think that because the power standard is much higher than vBrawl, nothing can be nerfed. Who wants to play a game where something like PM'S 2.5 Sonic runs around being better than specialists in their own specialties?
I've seen this too many times before "Minus was ruined when they started trying to balance things".
No one complains when PM nerfs things (2.5 Sonic, pre 3.0 Ivy, etc)
It's as if people think that because the power standard is much higher than vBrawl, nothing can be nerfed. Who wants to play a game where something like PM'S 2.5 Sonic runs around being better than specialists in their own specialties?
lets talk about nerfs. There is a clear line when something in the game is annoying or not fun to play against. We remove those, or re-balance them in order to make the game as a whole more fun to play. If one character is over centralizing and makes it not fun to play, it needs to be addressed. Not "buff the crap out of everybody until that SINGLE move can no longer be considered OP ". While we use that as a mindset to balance the game as a whole, nerfs are necessary when moves cross the line where it becomes unfun to play against and a move has too little counterplay or a character has too little weaknesses to be counterplayed against.
While you may consider some of the things this update as a nerf, they WERE NOT intended to be. as in, we are not going around nerfing stuff all the time. So please don't make it seem like we are. We as a dev team make judgements based on YOUR feedback and choose our actions accordingly. And just to touch base a little, we had no intention whatsoever of nerfing blast burn. Not unless something that warrants it is brought to our attention after further feedback from the community. But for now i don't see anything wrong with it
Nerfs are an essential part of balancing a game. Minus' mindset was to buff everyone to equal levels, if some people go too high, they need to be toned down a little right? We in no way enjoy nerfing characters or moves, or use it as a go to option for dealing with balance. i assure you we buff a TON more then we nerf.
(keep in mind that i'm in no way speaking for the entire team, these are my views and my understanding of how we go about things)
While you may consider some of the things this update as a nerf, they WERE NOT intended to be. as in, we are not going around nerfing stuff all the time. So please don't make it seem like we are. We as a dev team make judgements based on YOUR feedback and choose our actions accordingly. And just to touch base a little, we had no intention whatsoever of nerfing blast burn. Not unless something that warrants it is brought to our attention after further feedback from the community. But for now i don't see anything wrong with it
Nerfs are an essential part of balancing a game. Minus' mindset was to buff everyone to equal levels, if some people go too high, they need to be toned down a little right? We in no way enjoy nerfing characters or moves, or use it as a go to option for dealing with balance. i assure you we buff a TON more then we nerf.
(keep in mind that i'm in no way speaking for the entire team, these are my views and my understanding of how we go about things)
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Other Aether
Mediator
Some of the nerfs really weren't on things that were over-centralizing, ex DK's side taunt. That was probably annoying, but I mostly used it to prevent stalling/camping. Luigi's neutral-b wasn't OP. Those are the bad ones. The good ones are on things like Ike's NSM, but honestly the nerf may have gone a little too far. Just my opinions, so meh. I think nerfs only belong on the really broken things, not the "slightly out of hand" things.
Other Aether
Mediator
True, but my point is that in true Brawl- fashion, you would've buffed/changed fAir instead of nerfing Thunderhand. I really don't play Luigi much and don't know, it's just my take on how Brawl- should work. I'm just throwing it out there, I don't really care if anything's done about it. In my opinion, as long as the game progresses and characters keep getting cool new moves (like Blast Burn!) I'm fine.
fAir did get a buff iirc, the angle tweak that was made allows it to kill pretty early. I'd say it's one of his best kill moves, definitely the most safe sure fire option now. I play luigi quite a bit. hehe you can actually cancel all the start-lag on thunderbrand when you land while starting up the air one. It instantly skips to the hitbox 
i don't really know the definitive reason why side-taunt's healing ability was taken out, but it did go into negative percents..which has been removed from the game now iirc. even jiggs can't go negative no more. It wasn't really a nerf thing imo. But i get where your coming from
i don't really know the definitive reason why side-taunt's healing ability was taken out, but it did go into negative percents..which has been removed from the game now iirc. even jiggs can't go negative no more. It wasn't really a nerf thing imo. But i get where your coming from
Ferrous Faucet
Well-Known Member
Have the bugs been worked out of this 3.3 version? I haven't been able to play it. When it was released, I downloaded it within the first few hours, and I was able to play a few matches against CPU but the game froze while transitioning to the results screen when I played a match as Pichu.
The next day, I re-downloaded 3.3 and put it on my SD card. The game would freeze at the strap screen. I downloaded it again, and it still froze at the strap screen. Pin Clock told me that it was a known issue and could be bypassed by NOT pressing the A-button immediately at the strap screen. I tried it and it didn't work. Then he suggested that I delete the strap folder from the SD card as a workaround, but after I did that the game froze on the second strap screen (the one that says Online actions are not rated by the ESRB).
To be clear, when I say the strap screen I mean the Brawl Minus 3.3 custom-made strap screen appeared as intended, with the Minus logo and everything. After I deleted the strap folder from the SD card, as expected it was reverted back to the vBrawl strap screen but froze on the ESRB screen.
I re-downloaded version 1.1 and it works fine.
The next day, I re-downloaded 3.3 and put it on my SD card. The game would freeze at the strap screen. I downloaded it again, and it still froze at the strap screen. Pin Clock told me that it was a known issue and could be bypassed by NOT pressing the A-button immediately at the strap screen. I tried it and it didn't work. Then he suggested that I delete the strap folder from the SD card as a workaround, but after I did that the game froze on the second strap screen (the one that says Online actions are not rated by the ESRB).
To be clear, when I say the strap screen I mean the Brawl Minus 3.3 custom-made strap screen appeared as intended, with the Minus logo and everything. After I deleted the strap folder from the SD card, as expected it was reverted back to the vBrawl strap screen but froze on the ESRB screen.
I re-downloaded version 1.1 and it works fine.
Bio_liquid0
New Member
The recent one has the Battle Portraits and mismatched costume portraits fixed correct?