Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I wish the screen would shake or something when the foot hits the ground, like D3
Fsmash.

The only thing I liked about his electric utilt is the electricity. It was cool for Ganon to do that instead of darkness, which is overused imo. I would rather more of his attacks had lightening to them.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
The old utilt wasn't that ridiculous unless you were bad at the game, or didn't know where the jump button was. The stage-wide ground part of the attack only hit for I believe 10%, didn't have kill potential, and could be seen coming from a mile away. I believe it is more useful against campers.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
The old utilt wasn't that ridiculous unless you were bad at the game, or didn't know where the jump button was. The stage-wide ground part of the attack only hit for I believe 10%, didn't have kill potential, and could be seen coming from a mile away. I believe it is more useful against campers.

20%, but no KO potential (maybe at like sudden death percents). It was *supposed* to clear traps as well but I don't think it removed TL arrows and I'm unsure if it cleared Snake mines and other traps.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Is it gonna clear TL arrows in 4.0?

I beIieve it did clear everything else. Probably not any stealth rocks touching the ground though. I mean, it could maybe.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
20% is too high IMO, and I think they mentioned it clearing arrows in the next release somewhere.
 

justadood

Just a dood with ideas
i personally think its range could be toned down a bit though : / i understand it's useful for set ups, but that's only really even useful at close enough ranges to begin with.. i just think the rest of the hit box's range -- which actually could be bigger this way -- should only do a little damage and trip foes, rather than send them upward... like, imagine X is ganon and the sweetspot, the arrows are the range of the hit boxes that send foes skyward (lol), and the commas are the range of hit boxes that trip foes.. the rest is the ground _______,,,,,,,,,^^^^X^^^^,,,,,,,,,_______
 
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Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
There's no point to tripping, and it doesn't really set up for anything ever, cause if you're using it close range, you're a terrible Dorf, and if they're running to you using it to get into that range, they are terrible players. It's meant to be an interrupt against camping and projectile users, such as Samus and crew.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
And frankly it's a mediocre interrupt at best (unless there's some degree of light armor on it, but it's not gonna stop Falco's gun and Samus's missiles and charge shot aren't going to be all that deterred...). It's still better than nothing and looks cool though.
 

Lucis Perficio

Radiant Hero of Blue Flames
Don't understand why Ganondorf needs a stage-wide hitbox, nor do I for any character. Ganon is already broken imo and I personally use him often. I hardly ever lose using him.

1. Stage-wide hitbox forces EVERY player to watch out for whenever Ganon raises his leg.

2. Gandouken can be spammed on players on the edge for gimping. Requires little skill besides timing Gandoukens. A cooltime could fix this, or a shrunken Gandouken.

3. Forward Smash can also hit targets holding onto an edge. I find this unnecessary considering the attack's basic damage, knockback, range, and the fact that it works against counters with its two waves of hitboxes.

I feel as though no character needs those slowed down lasers, though wolf could use some better range game considering his hurtbox to hitbox ratio. (He is large and though his hitboxes may be powerful, they oftentimes lack knockback and fade quickly.)

Add to this, Olimar, and the fact that NO ONE can approach him from mid range considering the speed at which he can throw Pikmin. Additionally, his Pikmin launch now? This wouldn't be so problematic if any attack could rid one of the Pikmin stuck tio them, but the attacks that would remove the Pikmin one has latched onto oneself are specific in terms of hitboxes, making it difficult to escape an Olimar who is chasing and emphatically tossing Pikmin, while waiting for one to be launched to connect with an aerial.

Once characters become so simplistic in terms of technique and repetitiveness, the game starts to get cheesy.

Overall it seems as though some characters are overly broken whereas others don't measure up. I prefer that instead of reducing the extremities of certain characters (such as reducing Jigglypuff's jumps back to 6 or reverting the laser speeds), other characters should be further broken so that they can compensate for these things.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
2. It's super easy to avoid Gandouken, but I do agree that the current version is relatively skill-less in use. You can only ever use it when you're completely safe, and there's no point aiming it.

3. It can't hit people in sweetspot invulnerability. If people aren't dawdling on the edge they have nothing to worry about.

Goddamn I hate Olimar so much.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Don't understand why Ganondorf needs a stage-wide hitbox, nor do I for any character. Ganon is already broken imo and I personally use him often. I hardly ever lose using him.

1. Stage-wide hitbox forces EVERY player to watch out for whenever Ganon raises his leg.
'Dorf loses to plenty of the faster characters. He has a hard time against opponents who really keep their defense up.

Anyway, 'Dorf's Up-Tilt is really easy to avoid with a simple short hop. Sure, him having this makes all the other players have to keep an eye on him in free-for-alls, but:

A.) They should be keeping a close watch on 'Dorf at all times anyway,
B.) If the 'Dorf spams U-Tilt, everyone else will probably gang up on him, and
C.) Brawl- is balanced around 1v1's primarily. FFA balance isn't nearly as important to the devs right now, IIRC.

2. Gandouken can be spammed on players on the edge for gimping. Requires little skill besides timing Gandoukens. A cooltime could fix this, or a shrunken Gandouken.
2. It's super easy to avoid Gandouken, but I do agree that the current version is relatively skill-less in use. You can only ever use it when you're completely safe, and there's no point aiming it.
Gandouken is being changed from the classic Energy Ball to a "Dark Wave" like Zelda's F-Tilt. Personally, I would have liked to see some experimentation with just Nerfing the old Energy Ball, but this new 'Douken seems like a good replacement so far.

If you'd like to try the new Gandouken, download the new "SOWP" Ganondorf in my signature, or the one from Kien's custom build.

3. Forward Smash can also hit targets holding onto an edge. I find this unnecessary considering the attack's basic damage, knockback, range, and the fact that it works against counters with its two waves of hitboxes.
One of 'Dorf's biggest weaknesses is his range. Giving his strongest, slowest Smash Attack a big hitbox helps him with this greatly. It's not hard to time your edge invincibility frames to avoid the F-Smash hitboxes. Or you can drop down, dodging the attack, and jump back up with a U-Air.

I feel as though no character needs those slowed down lasers...
I agree with you there.

...though wolf could use some better range game considering his hurtbox to hitbox ratio. (He is large and though his hitboxes may be powerful, they oftentimes lack knockback and fade quickly.)
All I know about Wolf is that he's a combo monster. Perhaps weak range is meant to be his weakness?

Add to this, Olimar, and the fact that NO ONE can approach him from mid range considering the speed at which he can throw Pikmin. Additionally, his Pikmin launch now? This wouldn't be so problematic if any attack could rid one of the Pikmin stuck tio them, but the attacks that would remove the Pikmin one has latched onto oneself are specific in terms of hitboxes, making it difficult to escape an Olimar who is chasing and emphatically tossing Pikmin, while waiting for one to be launched to connect with an aerial.
Not too familiar with fighting Olimar myself, but he does seem like a character who is OP, but isn't being worked on because we don't have enough people playing as/against him to provide feedback. Ice Climbers is another character like this (that desynched, sliding Blizzard).

Once characters become so simplistic in terms of technique and repetitiveness, the game starts to get cheesy.

Overall it seems as though some characters are overly broken whereas others don't measure up. I prefer that instead of reducing the extremities of certain characters (such as reducing Jigglypuff's jumps back to 6 or reverting the laser speeds), other characters should be further broken so that they can compensate for these things.
IMO, Jiggly needs to lose those jumps, and those slow lasers are just obnoxious.

With 10 jumps, Jiggs can float up to the top corner of the screen, Rest, and make it back to the stage. -.-

P.S.: I like the Berserk avatar! Too bad updates take forever...
 
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NEWB

Well-Known Member
Meh, they kinda got all the points covered. I know through my experiences, I've never had an issue avoiding those attacks. I mean, once you let youself get caught by an edge gaurding Gandouken once, you are pretty much dead but is very simple to avoid. Both fsmash and gandouken have enough startup to allow you to just roll past them onto the ledge or just do normal getup and punish both moves after they come out. If you are having problems I'd say it's because you like edge hopping a lot, which is the least helpful way to recover since you are vulnerable.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
I still think Ganondorf is average at best, but that's probably because I play all the space animals in this game (the irony) who all more or less body him. Sheik does so as well - Ganondorf does cool stuff, but most of that stuff is super slow and they can just teleport in and out (and none of them have issues avoiding Gandouken, like, ever).

The old utilt I think was pretty helpful against DDD's Waddles though, which is already a hard MU for Ganondorf.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
There's really nothing wrong with Dorf. The new Gandouken will ultimately be more effective without being incredibly broken, and utilt has a plethora of uses that require mastery of the king of evil to fully understand. When played well, Dorf can pretty much beast through any char in the game regardless of their play style.

Wolf has low KB on his attacks because he was designed for an aerial combo game, with setups to lead into them.

Olimar I will agree is very powerful, and due to his style of play, makes it hard to fight against him. His pikmin are important to him, but they have more power than I feel is truly necessary, especially considering their effects if left on. The only real way to counter him is picking a reflector character.

Jiggs is having her jump count reverted, so you don't need to worry about that.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
There's really nothing wrong with Dorf. The new Gandouken will ultimately be more effective without being incredibly broken, and utilt has a plethora of uses that require mastery of the king of evil to fully understand. When played well, Dorf can pretty much beast through any char in the game regardless of their play style.

Wolf has low KB on his attacks because he was designed for an aerial combo game, with setups to lead into them.

Olimar I will agree is very powerful, and due to his style of play, makes it hard to fight against him. His pikmin are important to him, but they have more power than I feel is truly necessary, especially considering their effects if left on. The only real way to counter him is picking a reflector character.

Jiggs is having her jump count reverted, so you don't need to worry about that.

We'll agree to disagree about the Ganondorf thing [I'm still unclear on how he's actually supposed to hit a Fox that plays "lame" outside of Fox messing up, and to a lesser degree the same thing for Falco.]

Wolf's bair has very high KBG for anyone saying his KB is too low, and his unangled fsmash is a fine KO move [though sometimes it doesn't link properly for whatever reason]. His dsmash KOs somewhat late by Minus standards [usually around 130% I think, maybe 140%] but it will do the job fine. Wolf's nair is also good for linking to uair, and uair -> Fire Wolf (his up+B) KOs very effectively on many stages. I happen to think Wolf is one of the best characters in the game [in the top 10 area at the very least].

Also Olimar can be dealt with effectively by Fire Emblem characters as well [owo showed me this with an impressive Marth that frequently used counter to clear away Pikmin].

Ad he was saying he wished other characters would be more broken, as opposed to giving Jiggs fewer jumps, but that's neither here nor there.

I will also state here I miss Falco slow lasers giving him a strong approach option, but actually somewhat weakening his camping game (yeah uthrow and bthrow sucked, but uthrow sucks anyway and people can still DI out of bthrow lasers if I'm not mistaken).
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
You're free to disagree, Thor, but you can't talk like you know Dorf. He's been my main since Melee, and I know him like the back of my hand. I don't talk about him in such ways without having experience under my belt.

I'm just saying, I'm being informative to those that play him, in hopes of them coming to understand him and possibly improving with him. He is far from the worst in Minus by any means when played right.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
You're free to disagree, Thor, but you can't talk like you know Dorf. He's been my main since Melee, and I know him like the back of my hand. I don't talk about him in such ways without having experience under my belt.

I'm just saying, I'm being informative to those that play him, in hopes of them coming to understand him and possibly improving with him. He is far from the worst in Minus by any means when played right.

I never said he was the worst or even close to worst lol. I just said I don't think he can really compete with some of the bogus crap a lot of the cast has, by virtue of just being pretty slow. He hits arguably harder than anyone in the entire cast (possibly even harder than Bowser), but actually securing a hit to start that string can be difficult against very patient players.

And I can talk like I know 'Dorf? I know less than some others (I'm not Bizzaro Flame or whatever) but I've played him in PM, Brawl, Smash 4, and Melee (I managed to zero-death a Sheik ending in utilting them out of Vanish in Melee XD tragically not recorded <_<) and I can do decent work with him in Minus [Darx and I used to go about even in Kirby vs Dorf fights - nothing impressive, but I know what I'm doing]. I don't main him, but I understand how he works and what he generally wants to look for.

The only things I even said were "Fox/Falco/Wolf/Sheik beat Ganondorf if both sides play the MU correctly, Ganondorf is slow, utilt helped out vs DDD, I don't understand how current Ganondorf is reasonably expected to reliably land hits against a precisely played Fox". I'd imagine you disagree with the first and last ones, but if you watch high-level Melee, nearly every hit Ganondorf secures is a result of either punishing from a previous hit or an error on the side of the Fox/Falco [in Melee I have played a couple Ganondorfs, and even as they give PR people runs for their money, they state my Falco is incredibly frustrating to fight even when they win, because I play a significantly more patient and defensive Falco, which is something Ganondorf struggles with.] While Ganondorf is now equipped with a better Wiz Kick and his new Flame Choke, avoiding both of those things is not difficult for a Fox that doesn't overcommit [even if he attempts to SHL and the Ganondorf tries to come in, he can put out a nair hitbox as he lands and while fading away - if he's SHL at reasonably safe distance he'll trade or intercept with the nair and can convert from that because Fox is Fox]. Falco/Wolf/Sheik beating Ganondorf is a byproduct of his terrible neutral game and their ability to zero-death and gimp him rather reliably. Wolf shouldn't be using Wolf Flash except to help conversions or recover, but if he is flashing in neutral, Ganondorf probably wins it.

I don't understand why you'd disagree with the second statement [Ganon has bad air and ground speed and laggy moves, while his burst movment options are average by Minus standards], but if you do, by all means explain why you think he's fast movement-wise.

And I know you agree with me on utilt [or if you don't I have no idea why you're not fighting utilt reversion...].

I'm not looking to start a fight either, but I get the feeling one will occur >_>...
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I'm not aiming for a fight at all, or even an argument. I'm only saying that I know quite a bit about him. He doesn't have a fast aerial game, and he can't keep up with fast chars, but his presence can never be denied, especially in Minus. Over-committing leads to punishments, leading into kills, and that is where Dorf thrives most. If you make even one mistake against him, he can put you into death %s in only a few moves, if not kill you outright.

While pokes and such rack up damage slowly on him, he has no reason to play overly defensive, because once he reads you, you're done. He is heavy enough to survive most of the fast chars long enough to put some fear in them, and he has plenty of attacks to keep them at bay, his fsmash being the best with that insane range.

He has his weakness, but goddamn is he awesome.
 
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Lucis Perficio

Radiant Hero of Blue Flames
I can agree with the points brought up as to why certain things won't be changed about Ganon, I suppose I should just play with more skillful players.

On an unrelated note, I feel certain gimmicks in Project M could be used in this game as well. Don't get me wrong, I love that both are separate, I just feel that since the aim of Minus is to be over-the-top. Some changes I suggest are the simple addition of costumes which I don't think would hurt.

Others:
1. Granting Samus her morph ball crawl as well as boost ball, and the ability to change between plasma and ice beams with her side taunt, as well as the respective moves (though those can be mixed to the Minus preference, be that what it may be).

2. If Ike felt as smoothly as he does on PM, though I feel this is due in part to the physics. His range is more reasonable considering his resized hitboxes, and his meteor smash is easier to land, add to that his horizontally extended aether and blue flame eruption (though it saddens me that this can't be coded as anything other than aura). Maybe even add the hitboxes to his down taunt (though for the Minus effect, it could be made exclusive to NSM).

3. Some additions to Ganon such as the electric stomp.

4. Overall, I prefer PM's Roy than Minuse' though I don't fully understand why. It may be because of the aerial swords dance.

5. Why not be able to turn around C. Falcon's punch 4 times?

Anyone agree?
 
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NEWB

Well-Known Member
Generally, we all kinda want No. 1 just because those were really cool things pm did. Part of why not more stuff doesn't get in from pm is because minus wants to mod minus on their own, which I can respect. Generally projwct m has much more polish then minus does but minus will too once it's getting completed, I hope.

The rest don't feel necessary to me, though I do want Ganon to have more lightening attacks.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Samus will probably never get those things because PM accomplished it first, and Minus doesn't want to take someone else's originality for their own.
 
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