Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

[DubLTeamz]

Cool stuff, glad to see Pichu has a choice whether or not he punches himself. I'll end up punching myself every time anyway, but its nice to have a choice.
Wolf lasers reverted??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Didn't you LOVE his growing, slow moving, 6 on-screen projectile wall off death????
Mr Game and Watch's taunt, does doing it three times give a minimum charge to Oil Panic?
SO MANY QUESTIONS GIVE GAME

 

[Thor]

Cool stuff, glad to see Pichu has a choice whether or not he punches himself. I'll end up punching myself every time anyway, but its nice to have a choice.
Wolf lasers reverted??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Didn't you LOVE his growing, slow moving, 6 on-screen projectile wall off death????
Mr Game and Watch's taunt, does doing it three times give a minimum charge to Oil Panic?
SO MANY QUESTIONS GIVE GAME

If Wolf could have his triple laser gun [with the not-stun, and doing ~11% total], it would be cool.

The stun gun was completely stupid. To see my point, pick Wolf vs Bowser on FD [you play as Bowser, have your friend play as Wolf]. Put Bowser on the ledge. Have Wolf mash B from the center of the stage. Once some lasers are passing over your head [or once you've been hit off the ledge, I think they grow enough to do that], try to get on-stage and reach Wolf so that you can put a stop to him [hint: it's basically impossible]. And keep in mind, if you DO get off an RR to get there, he should easily be able to punish it [you're walking through a ton of lasers with high hitlag], combo you offstage due to your endlag, and start the wall of lasers again, so RR basically shouldn't work for stopping this... ever.

Other characters also had this stupid problem [Ganondorf on FD basically has to time a ledgehop then side+b over, which is stupidly punishable by a combo-heavy character in Wolf], so seeing them removed may not be tons of fun for people who just laser'd once in a while, but it's a change that's healthy for gameplay overall.

 

[Valravn]

I'm glad for the change to Wolf's lasers, but for the meantime: you can SDI up and towards Wolf to pop right out of the line of fire and approach him. Just jam the C stick and control stick in the same direction during the hitstun. That's what I usually do for the Ganon vs. Wolf matchup anyhow.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

The stun gun was completely stupid. To see my point, pick Wolf vs Bowser on FD [you play as Bowser, have your friend play as Wolf]. Put Bowser on the ledge. Have Wolf mash B from the center of the stage. Once some lasers are passing over your head [or once you've been hit off the ledge, I think they grow enough to do that], try to get on-stage and reach Wolf so that you can put a stop to him [hint: it's basically impossible]. And keep in mind, if you DO get off an RR to get there, he should easily be able to punish it [you're walking through a ton of lasers with high hitlag], combo you offstage due to your endlag, and start the wall of lasers again, so RR basically shouldn't work for stopping this... ever.

@BC

 

[DubLTeamz]

If Wolf could have his triple laser gun [with the not-stun, and doing ~11% total], it would be cool.
The stun gun was completely stupid. To see my point, pick Wolf vs Bowser on FD.... MORE WORDS AND STUFF YOU ALREADY READ IT.

Er.... It was sarcasm. I had hoped emphasis on 'loved' would have made it clearer, but whatever. I totally agree tho, from casual, 3.Q Wolf Lasers were amazing, just as MAX Onsalaught Falcon is the most amazing mod ever, but in competitive it really just is dumb and shouldn't be there. I'm glad they are getting changed.

@Valravn I find the Ganon vs. Wolf matchup very much slanted in Ganon's favor. Mostly cause if Wolf tries any of that Laser crap the Ganon smacks his controller against the wall.
On a side note, I've just realized I play with some violent people.

 

[BC]

@Thor Umm... you DO realise that Bowser can just roll on stage and either crouch or dash... right? Bowser has armor on his dash, so he can just power through the lasers and either grab Wolf or make him stop shooting. Sure, you'll take a ton of damage but... it's worth it.

 

[Thor]

@Thor Umm... you DO realise that Bowser can just roll on stage and either crouch or dash... right? Bowser has armor on his dash, so he can just power through the lasers and either grab Wolf or make him stop shooting. Sure, you'll take a ton of damage but... it's worth it.

Roll doesn't have enough I-frames to roll through it [at least when I tested it] and so he gets stunned before he can actually start his dash.

The guy I was testing it with might have just been bad, but I tried it too and couldn't get it to work.

 

[NEWB]

Nah, thor. It isn't that bad for a smart bowser. That is to say wolf should be able to combo the crap out of bowser. Bowser may be able to armor through more of wolfs attacks though so I'm not too sure on the matchup. I want to say wolf should win but if bowser can crouch to tank some of wolfs attacks, then it's a tricky matchup.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Just cause he can power through it doesn't make it smart anyway. He still takes damage and still gets stunned by god knows how many lasers to the face. The wolf would need to be mentally challenged not to take advantage of such an opening.

 

[NEWB]

Wait, the point of tanking through them is so that he doesn't get stunned. It's obviously not smart to just sit there and tank them, I'm just saying a smart bowser would know how to. As I've already said, I still think wolf would easily beat bowser because bowser is combo fodder.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You don't get it. Stun happens to armor too. While he's running through those lasers, each hit is stunning him, turning his dash into a slideshow. He puts himself at a horrible disadvantage for it.

 

[NEWB]

Oh that! I see what you mean now.

What if he just crouched/crawled lol

 

[Mariosonicman1]

Oh that! I see what you mean now.

What if he just crouched/crawled lol

do you think a giant turtle like that could crawl under wolfs gun?

 

[DubLTeamz]

If I'm wrong, please don't burn me at the stake. I'd MUCH rather explode or something.
@Mariosonicman1 I think NEWB is saying crouching would tank the Lasers to avoid the nockback, not avoid them altogether, as a way to get near Wolf.
@NEWB Gold_TSG is saying that the Hitstun (Not Launch or flinching) still takes affect on Bowser despite armor, so he takes FOREVER to get any where.
And its a moot point on how Bowser gets there, since when he finally does Wolf Combos him to oblivion.

 

[NEWB]

Yes, I know. I did realize that when I said I knew last post. Well timed RR are still possible to on wolf or anyone at close range. I mean jeez, we all know that match is a little against bowser but it's not unwinneable.

 

[Gold_TSG]

"Stun is stun. As long as he's trying to chug along through a wall of stun lasers without shielding, he leaves himself open to be attacked, and grabbed if he tries to shield."

This was supposed to be posted hours ago, but the site decided to break when I hit post.
Basically, the match is nigh-unwinnable for bowser. He is a large target, he is slow, and easy to lock down with walls of stun. No matter what he does, he has no answer to a laser wall.

 

[BC]

Couldn't Bowser just hang on the ledge and keep re-grabbing it until Wolf decides to stop shooting and approach? It's not the best strategy, but it'll keep him from getting a ton of damage from lasers.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It doesn't help a character if they can't move from a spot. That's bad design. It's like how bad the matchup was between bowser and Zelda. He had no answer to her ranged attacks, so he had zero approaching options. This is no different, cause he's locked onto the ledge until the other player decides to stop.

 

[Neville]

Bowser's matchups are very polarizing. Against characters who can combo him he has the wost matchups. My Peach has gotten 200% combos on Bowsers before.

 

[NEWB]

The heck? The site like transformed but then I logged in and it's normal now.

 

[Darxmarx]

The heck? The site like transformed but then I logged in and it's normal now.

The theme is different for guests than for certain members. You can change the theme at the bottom left corner of the page. It saves the theme you were last using, which is why it went back to normal when you logged in.

 

[Mawootad]

What exactly are Bowser's particularly good and bad matchups? I don't really play against humans so I'm not too familiar with overall matchups.

 

[Kien]

Well I know his bad ones include...

Sonic, Fox, Ness, Sheik, ROB, Link, Toon Link, Wolf, Falco, Peach, Zamus, Falcon, Squirtle, and Pit. There are probably more.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Basically anyone without a projectile or lots of speed.

 

[Thor]

To be honest, this whole "laser wall" thing is dang near impossible to set up unless you send Bowser far offstage [Wolf can sort of start it if Bowser is kicked off, but he has to be really fast and not go for any offstage followups]. My point was that the MU basically becomes 100-0 when Wolf's firing the gun repeatedly from center stage with Bowser stuck on the ledge.

If Bowser can stay onstage to avoid letting Wolf set up, things are still... bad... but far from unwinnable [play a good Sheik as Pichu (in Melee) if you want to see unwinnable XD]. But if Wolf gets the laser wall up with Bowser on the edge, he might as well SD to get hovering over center stage with a tinge of I-frames.

I'm unclear on why Peach Bowser is bad, since Bowser practically zero-deaths her if he lands one RR [do the dthrow, combo into koopa claw, then I think fair or usmash? That's basically dead, or only needing one more hit.] but I never played Megasaturn's Peach with Bowser so I have no idea. I also don't think Falcon is THAT bad, but it's not fun either.

The only MU I can think of that seems to be good would be vs MK, and I honestly think that's just my MK being bad vs armor, not MK losing the MU. Bowser might lose almost every MU in the game to be honest, but if you don't know how to deal with him, he'll body you and make it look easy. If I had to guess, I'd say he could survive vs Snake rather well while comboing him hard, and could do well vs DDD if he can clear Waddles [I don't know if he can]. Then I think he can handle the fire emblem boys ok, and I think vs DK is just a classic titan battle, so to speak [same vs 'Zard, at least when 'Zard's fair only flinched].