Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

[Thor]

Speaking of totally random mods, I'm sure the idea will be shot down for reasons of "not fair" or something, but how about in teams, when friendly fire is on [or even off?], Falcon Punch hitting a teammate heals them and does no knockback? It would literally be "Friendly fire", and Ike's fsmash has already been coded to hit teammates while friendly fire is off.

This might be totally imbalanced, but I think it'd be awesome. It could also just heal like 22% [half damage of Falcon Punch] since the Punch takes time to fire [heh] and you can knock the opposing Falcon out of it or hit the teammate with moves to hit them out of range [be it projectiles or quick moves that move characters, like Fox's side+b -> shine them away].

 

[Mawootad]

It's would probably be extremely imbalanced; Falcon could just sit on one side of the stage and spam Falcon Punch while his teammate stood in front doing basically whatever and get away with basically anything. Also, while in 4.0 we'll have code capable of doing much more customized hitbox effects, we'd still need to figure out how hitboxes distinguish friend from foe. Ike's fsmash hitting (or not hitting?) teammates with friendly fire off is a built in PSA capability, healing teammates isn't.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Healing teammates for that much on an attack so powerful and quick is just silly.

 

[Thor]

I admittedly didn't think it through, but 2v2s do have 2 people to target the Falcon.

Also, could it heal like 8%, 2% for each hit? That would be useful, but no more broken than any PK healing strat [though those require a PK Kid, I know.]

Not sure what the Ike fsmash distinction means, other than that healing would be hard.

Good to know this isn't likely.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I don't think team healing should be a thing ever, cause that basically makes it pointless to ever NOT use Falcon in that situation. Ness and Lucas have specific types of personal heal, and so does Ike, so there's no justification to give anyone, Falcon least of all, a team healer.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

I play PM Ike though it would be nice to play him with some Minus effects such as NSM.

PM doesn't necessarily feel more broken, but it seems to leave more room for inventiveness but that's because of the physics, I assume.

I guess I'll just make my own mash up of PM, Minus, and Zeus that exceeds all three to meet my own standards which I'm sure others share with me.

No one here has given me quite the logic I desired other than "if you want this, do that." I was hoping to hear from developers or those involved with the project then people telling me to do the obvious.

 

[Valravn]

If you're standing still to heal your ally for 8% damage, the both of you are going to get stuffed by the enemy team. In teams you generally don't want to be next to each other. Especially in a game with gigantic and powerful hitboxes flying everywhere.

I'm assuming team attack is on, of course. If it were off there's no reason not to bunch up and spam hitboxes to cover each other and heal up.

 

[Pin Clock]

Brawl Minus 4.0 has evolved into a new thread!

 

[Pin Clock]

Hope you liked the April Fool's Joke!

Here's a small little real update, if the joke didn't satisfy.

Spoiler: Small April Update

Captain Falcon
Will now flash when he has a charged PAUNCH

Meta Knight
MK has recieved heavy changes to his specials and minor changes to his attributes and normal moves to make him all around a lot faster (especially in the air). Currently functions as a gimper, capable of dragging opponents to the blast lines (high, low, and side) for some very early kills, although his actual direct ko options are meant to be less than stellar. Currently stupidly strong. Changes are compared to 3.Q

Jab
Jab: Changed to 3.Q ftilt, interrupts/timings slightly modified to be more jab-like

fTilt
TBA

fSmash
Charge animation reverted to vBrawl

Usmash
Attack reverted to vBrawl with 1.5x fsm, damage 2/3/4 -> 2/3/6, and reduced kbg to not kill super early

Mach Tornado
Now preserves 100% of momentum, significantly faster, responds better to button presses, hitboxes changed to launch foes away rather than drag foes in (or in other words tornado now pushes instead of pulls), duration can only be slightly affected by button presses, duration reduced from 47-105 frames to 46-48 frames. Hitbox priorities changed; preferred order is now bounce off the top of tornado, launched from front of tornado, launched from back of tornado, launched from bottom of tornado. Very good at carrying opponents off the side blast lines.

Drill Rush
Startup speed and travel speed increased by 50%, travel duration reduced by ~1/4, now properly carries opponents, now has significantly reduced endlag if final hit connects, now has fixed knockback that launches opponent up and away rather than straight up (on the ground) or in the direction meta knight was travelling in (in the air). Very fast, high priority, leads into combos.

Various
Various character's pummel hitboxes adjusted so they will be able to hit Pichu

Samus/Toon Link/Link/Lucas
Now prioritizes zair over other possible options during iasa (aka can now zair during cancellable aerial moves, like throwing items)

STAGES
Pokemon Stadium replaced with Pokemon Stadium X (name not final)
Pokemon Stadium X is a transforming stage that combines the best transformation elements
of both Stadium 1 and Stadium 2.
The transformations are as follows
Water (windmill moved to background)
Grass
Ground
Electric (conveyer belts modified)

 

[Thor]

I don't think team healing should be a thing ever, cause that basically makes it pointless to ever NOT use Falcon in that situation. Ness and Lucas have specific types of personal heal, and so does Ike, so there's no justification to give anyone, Falcon least of all, a team healer.

Don't use him because you can't play Falcon well enough, and/or wish to use another strategy?

There is no reason NOT to use double Fox in Melee, because Fox is the best character in the game... yet people use Falco, Marth, Peach, Puff, Samus, and more. Similarly, there's no reason NOT to use Meta Knight in Brawl, but we had Snake, Falco, Pikachu, ICs, Olimar, Diddy Kong, and ZSS mains out there [and more]...

Saying there's no reason to NOT do something really only applies to L-cancelling [hence why I disagree with the mechanic being implemented in mods], but there are very often reasons not to go for a team healing strat.

Hope you liked the April Fool's Joke!

Here's a small little real update, if the joke didn't satisfy.

Spoiler: Small April Update

Captain Falcon
Will now flash when he has a charged PAUNCH

Meta Knight
MK has recieved heavy changes to his specials and minor changes to his attributes and normal moves to make him all around a lot faster (especially in the air). Currently functions as a gimper, capable of dragging opponents to the blast lines (high, low, and side) for some very early kills, although his actual direct ko options are meant to be less than stellar. Currently stupidly strong. Changes are compared to 3.Q

Jab
Jab: Changed to 3.Q ftilt, interrupts/timings slightly modified to be more jab-like

fTilt
TBA

fSmash
Charge animation reverted to vBrawl

Usmash
Attack reverted to vBrawl with 1.5x fsm, damage 2/3/4 -> 2/3/6, and reduced kbg to not kill super early

Mach Tornado
Now preserves 100% of momentum, significantly faster, responds better to button presses, hitboxes changed to launch foes away rather than drag foes in (or in other words tornado now pushes instead of pulls), duration can only be slightly affected by button presses, duration reduced from 47-105 frames to 46-48 frames. Hitbox priorities changed; preferred order is now bounce off the top of tornado, launched from front of tornado, launched from back of tornado, launched from bottom of tornado. Very good at carrying opponents off the side blast lines.

Drill Rush
Startup speed and travel speed increased by 50%, travel duration reduced by ~1/4, now properly carries opponents, now has significantly reduced endlag if final hit connects, now has fixed knockback that launches opponent up and away rather than straight up (on the ground) or in the direction meta knight was travelling in (in the air). Very fast, high priority, leads into combos.

Various
Various character's pummel hitboxes adjusted so they will be able to hit Pichu

Samus/Toon Link/Link/Lucas
Now prioritizes zair over other possible options during iasa (aka can now zair during cancellable aerial moves, like throwing items)

STAGES
Pokemon Stadium replaced with Pokemon Stadium X (name not final)
Pokemon Stadium X is a transforming stage that combines the best transformation elements
of both Stadium 1 and Stadium 2.
The transformations are as follows
Water (windmill moved to background)
Grass
Ground
Electric (conveyer belts modified)

MK sounds weird... but thanks for the update Pin!

 

[Gold_TSG]

You don't need to be good with him if you know how to heal and stay alive. This is a basic strategy to any game that involves a healer and a tank.

The point remains that stuff shouldn't be added "just cause."

 

[NEWB]

New MK sounds interesting. I like it.

 

[Thor]

Is there an ETA for this? Before May 1st? Or is even that possibly too soon?

 

[justadood]

how about if falcon's insta-pawnch was able to be consumed through another ultra taunt to regain health, or by holding B instead of pressing it.. like, make your own style of the mod with that, and make the insta-pawnch replaced with a heal, and need a knee land to aactivate or something so you don't spam it, or something... another idea is to make it so the falcon dive can use the ultra taunt charge to heal himself when he catches a foe, and maybe make him able to give some health to teammates if he says show me yo moves with them in front of him, like, "here, i'll tag you in, gl"... that's the least spammable and still interesting idea i can think of off the top of my head, but i don't really wanna see it in brawl minus unless it can be implemented better than just a punch that heals allies... that would be annoying and easily abused, and nonsensical in the first place i would be willing to try it out to prove myself wrong if it was put in a separate build, but as the idea sounds now, i'd prefer it not be included in the next minus update, or the next, until it's tested by you and whoever builds the idea, or picked up by the team and considerately implemented.. it could be cool, but not without a lot of testing, and once it is stapled to minus, you guys aren't gonna want it gone unless it's horrible, so again, it shouldn't be included (yet)

 

[Thor]

The healing punch was thought of on a whim, clearly some people are afraid healing is too strong in teams [it's really not, Falcon Punch could at best be used in 2v1s and the person who's the one could punish Falcon on reaction] and it's apparently hard to code.

Still really eager for Minus 4.0 and wondering what kind of timeframe we have... I miss thinking it'd be out by the end of February though.

 

[Glyph]

The problem isn't that people are afraid it would be too good (it would almost never come up), it's that it doesn't make any sense to do. No one's ever been in a teams game, hit their ally, and thought 'what the hell, my fire punch HURT him? Why didn't he heal?'

If there were a problem where for some reason falcon had a need to keep his ally healthier, then yeah something like this would be a great idea. But as is it's just adding something cuz it would be neato.

 

[Neville]

The problem isn't that people are afraid it would be too good (it would almost never come up), it's that it doesn't make any sense to do. No one's ever been in a teams game, hit their ally, and thought 'what the hell, my fire punch HURT him? Why didn't he heal?'

If there were a problem where for some reason falcon had a need to keep his ally healthier, then yeah something like this would be a great idea. But as is it's just adding something cuz it would be neato.

I agree. A lot of cool sounding ideas aren't added, not because they're broken, but for game design reasons which it seems a lot of people don't understand.

 

[Thor]

The problem isn't that people are afraid it would be too good (it would almost never come up), it's that it doesn't make any sense to do. No one's ever been in a teams game, hit their ally, and thought 'what the hell, my fire punch HURT him? Why didn't he heal?'

If there were a problem where for some reason falcon had a need to keep his ally healthier, then yeah something like this would be a great idea. But as is it's just adding something cuz it would be neato.

I'm pretty sure this entire mod came into existence because "yeah, that'd be neato."

There was no reason for Wario's bike to land other than "yeah, that'd be neato" but they took it out nerfing his recovery [which doesn't need nerfs, the point is he shouldn't get gimped, much like Puff] and making his bike less cool. Falco's dair didn't need to return as a lingering meteor, but they put it in for "Melee" reasons, which has already been shot down time and again as "neato" and nothing more. Fox's blaster has no need whatsoever to cancel into aerials, but they put it in because "neato". Luigi's ultrataunt does LITERALLY nothing except an animation, but they put it in because "yeah, that's neato".

I don't see why adding cool bells and whistles is a problem. If something is shown to be unbalanced, sure, but since we're deadest on making things "Minus staples" [like Lavaville and other moves], Falcon Punch healing would be an awesome Minus staple, not because it makes sense [Lavaville doesn't], but precisely because it doesn't make sense, but does something cool but highly situational in-game regardless.

 

[Glyph]

I like how you have the explanation for why things were changed in the same lines where you try to say there was no reason lol. Wario's bike was changed as a nerf to his recovery. Falco's dair is buffed to be the best version it's been, which was the melee iteration. The fox blaster thing I used to argue in the BRoom was completely pointless since the blaster was so low lag in the first place and would serve no real purpose, but hey I don't call the shots either. Luigi's supertaunt is completely benign and no different than any other taunt in the game.

Thing is, all (well, most of) these changes make sense. Wario can recover nigh infinitely on his bike? Bike gets a hit. We want Falco's dair to be as good as possible? You look to melee. They're not just there for fun, they serve as a real solution to actual problems OR have no bearing on gameplay. Having falcon punch heal goes against everything that makes sense for the move, and even in a more tangible sense would encourage more defensive gameplay in attempt to heal a teammate. It's just not a very good idea from a game design, flat out. If you wanted to use something like that in a custom version I'm sure you could get help from some of the coding guys, but I doubt we're going to see it in the main release.

 

[Thor]

I like how you have the explanation for why things were changed in the same lines where you try to say there was no reason lol. Wario's bike was changed as a nerf to his recovery. Falco's dair is buffed to be the best version it's been, which was the melee iteration. The fox blaster thing I used to argue in the BRoom was completely pointless since the blaster was so low lag in the first place and would serve no real purpose, but hey I don't call the shots either. Luigi's supertaunt is completely benign and no different than any other taunt in the game.

Thing is, all (well, most of) these changes make sense. Wario can recover nigh infinitely on his bike? Bike gets a hit. We want Falco's dair to be as good as possible? You look to melee. They're not just there for fun, they serve as a real solution to actual problems OR have no bearing on gameplay. Having falcon punch heal goes against everything that makes sense for the move, and even in a more tangible sense would encourage more defensive gameplay in attempt to heal a teammate. It's just not a very good idea from a game design, flat out. If you wanted to use something like that in a custom version I'm sure you could get help from some of the coding guys, but I doubt we're going to see it in the main release.

Wario's bike was made so he can land, but this doesn't do anything. It functions as a recovery nerf, but was just intended to allow bike to land [which I haven't seen our Gamez, the only Wario I know, ever do].

Falco's dair is worse than Melee because meteor cancelling. It also doesn't solve a problem, unless "people don't hate this move" is a problem [I know I've gotten crap about how "cheap" it is that I constantly seek to hit people offstage with it, and how it should/will be nerfed in custom builds, from people on these forums].

You literally proved my point with how you described Fox's blaster. Falcon's Falcon Punch would also serve no purpose in 1v1s, which is what the game is balanced around [the same as with Ike's fsmash], exactly like Luigi taunt.

There are plenty of things that aren't good game design but occur anyways. This wouldn't even occur except in teams, and I play teams with people who loved the idea when one of them came up with it, which is why I put it here - to make the game more fun for them. If the dev team's against that, then... well, whatever.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You can't throw out ideas and expect them all to get in, especially if reasons are given as to why they shouldn't. Suggestions are fine, but the people that are working on the mod with their own visions don't necessarily have to cater to every single thing thrown at them. That's why, as Glyph said, you're free to make your own version of the mod special for your homies. That way, you can do what you want and add what you want without resistance for what you think is cool.

 

[Thor]

You can't throw out ideas and expect them all to get in, especially if reasons are given as to why they shouldn't. Suggestions are fine, but the people that are working on the mod with their own visions don't necessarily have to cater to every single thing thrown at them. That's why, as Glyph said, you're free to make your own version of the mod special for your homies. That way, you can do what you want and add what you want without resistance for what you think is cool.

Ok.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Ok.

 

[Valravn]

Someone hold my suspension of disbelief for a sec. Why would punching someone with a fist surrounded by a gigantic flaming falcon heal them? I don't think it'd even be a good idea to do, except maybe after a double-ko in teams.

As for the Fox laser change, I think it's pretty fun. I definitely noticed more fluidity when trying to squeeze in a laser shot or two between tech chases.

 

[Mariosonicman1]

aww man... i just had the idea of changing bowsers final smash a bit... make giga bowser have smash 4 attacks...
just like how smash 4 giga bowser has brawl attacks, why not do it backwards for minus?