Community Request Thread for the next version after 4.0BC

[Pin Clock]

More spice: Bent, please only take requests that actually request things
Redesign around close combat: Snake will not be receiving a redesign.
The two already discussed by the BR: No reason to list these either since we already discussed them, Bent man
Controls to activate reverse hitbox: That's...a little too complex for the controls we want.
Decrease Jumpsquat by a frame: This would be an alright buff regardless
Grounded UpB KB: Sure why not?
dAir armor: By reducing it to frame 4, this makes it slightly less safe to spam. Approved.
PM dilt or Jab1 cancels: We'll take the PM dTilt, Ma'am
PM uTilt: The minus uTilt may not be as "good" as the PM uTilt, but its raw power is just a tiny part of what makes Ganondorf Ganondorf that we do not want to take away. If there is issues with Minus uTilt we can improve it, but uTilt will remain uTilt
Fix uTilt: Yeah, that is the kind of hitbox dissonance we don't want, so it'll be fixed.
Reverse Dolphin Slash: Dolphin Slash is powerful as it is already.
Hold dTaunt to spin forever: Sounds awesome let's do it
Walljump Cancel Double Jump Punch: There are two ways we can do this: Either on the second jump punch only or if there is a way to differentiate when one wants to double jump or walljump, so the other doesn't happen when intending for one.

 

[Bent 00]

More spice: Bent, please only take requests that actually request things

"More Spice" sounded like a valid Request to me. Just another way of saying he needs more style and polish, like two new taunts.

That said, I suppose I can ignore Requests that are not for very specific things from now on, if that's what the Devs want.

RR hitboxes (already discussed among BR). [Ludacario]
Ledge jump (already discussed among BR). [Ludacario]

The two already discussed by the BR: No reason to list these either since we already discussed them, Bent man

Spoiler: If that "Bent man" has the annoyed tone of "Bent, man, seriously, come on"...

Give me a break, updating this list can take hours at a time, and I work 64 hours a week. I'm going to miss some things, so please don't get curt with me. A little appreciation would be nice, you know -- no one asked me to start this thread or maintain it, but there's no question it's helping improve Minus, and it's been a great inlet for community feedback.

Can someone please show me the two Requests Ludacario and Pin are referencing here?
I must have missed them, as I'm not seeing anything regarding Bowser's RR HitBoxes or Ledge Jump anywhere in the list.

Back to Pin: Will you elaborate on this response?

PM dilt or Jab1 cancels: We'll take the PM dTilt, Ma'am

I'm not familiar with Project M Bowser. Does this mean that you're replacing Bowser's current Minus Down-Tilt with his Project M Down-Tilt, or that Bowser will gain a second variant of Down-Tilt which he can use alongside the regular one via a certain button combo?

I'm guessing that the "Jab1 cancels into upb and downb" Request is Rejected, since you said "or" and picked the other option?

---

I understand that his weapons are where a lot of his damage comes from, but could he at least have a fraction of his hand-to-hand combat abilities as he does in his game?

Snake's Close-Quarters-Combat should be stronger, as it is in the Metal Gear Solid games. His weapons overshadow his martial arts. [Survivian]

Redesign around close combat: Snake will not be receiving a redesign.

Rather than asking for a "redesign", I think Survivan is merely asking for Snake's Close Quarters Combat moves to be sped up and/or strengthened a bit, so they aren't overshadowed by Snake's weapons so much. Still a "No" here?

---

Also, still waiting for clarification on this...

Can you elaborate on this, Pin?

Non-C4 stuff: Unnecessary with C4 stuff
C4 Stuff: Already confirmed in the changelog.

All that is mentioned in the Changelog Preview is this:

Snake
C4:
Never stickies back on Snake.
KBG 90 --> 80

So that leaves everything highlighted in red below unresolved:

---
Give Snake more control over when placed C4 explodes, by making it not detonate until Special is released after being primed. [Thor]
Bent 00: "If we go this route, I would suggest that Held Down-Special lock Snake into a pre-trigger state of his Down-Special animation, not proceeding with the C4 explosion and the rest of the animation until Special is released. This state could Cancel into anything except Specials, to opt out of the detonation."
---
I Request that we adapt a few things from Project M Snake's C4: Holding Down-Special results in a fake-out, and C4 does not fall off stuck opponents or transfer between fighters on contact. Perhaps it should also not self-detonate after a set time, and instead, remain in place until it is detonated, or vanish when Snake is K.O.ed. [Bent 00]
---

Is everything highlighted in red above REJECTED? I'm guessing that C4 will not transfer between foes, if it cannot transfer back to Snake, but confirmation of that would be nice.

Kindly be very clear with these Dev replies, it will save us both time.

---

Walljump Cancel Double Jump Punch: There are two ways we can do this: Either on the second jump punch only or if there is a way to differentiate when one wants to double jump or walljump, so the other doesn't happen when intending for one.

Sounds like Pin is waiting for additional feedback on this one, so I'm leaving it in PENDING.

Request List is now up to date.

 

[MelonKeepR]

If you guys are going to nerf Icicles could you at least give ICs better grab range, fix Nana on the ledge or anything?

Right, on the topic of ICs, I'd like to add this:

Give Popo, and only Popo, a jump-cancel grab.

The ICs, as they are now, have a few options to grab with. These include (but are not limited to):

Spoiler: Grabs 'n' Stuff

Dash Grab/Standing Grab (No GIF)

Pivot Grab
Down-b Grab
Side-b Grab

... and they have a few throw followups. These include (but are not limited to):

Spoiler: Follow Ups 'n' Stuff

Smash Attacks
Re-grabs
Aerials
Down-b

Now, all of that being said, these follow-ups are (generally) not too strong. Of course, that doesn't apply for all of them, but a majority end up being almost trivial in the grand scheme of things.

If Popo is given a jump-cancel grab, it would not only give the ICs more grab options, such as:

Spoiler: Grabs 'n' Stuff 2

Running Grab
Down-tilt Grab
Side-b Grab (Again)
Up-tilt Grab

... but it would also give them a powerful follow-up in a fast, true, up-throw up-air combo (Also connects with up-tilt at low percents, you cannot re-grab from this, however):

Spoiler: Up-throw Up-air Stuff

Up-throw Up-air
Up-throw Up-air Up-tilt

Do note that up-throw > up-air > up-tilt is a difficult combo, and is far less consistent than, say, up-throw > up-tilt > down-air, however, for the really daring, it is theoretically possible to do up-throw > up-air > up-tilt > up-b/up-smash, but it's unreasonable to attempt that.

As the ICs are now, at low and high percentages, their grabs can be fruitful, and they do have a variety of ways to catch the opponent in a grab, but at mid percentages, they feel quite lacking in this. Giving Popo a jump-cancel grab allows for the ICs to get better combos from up-throw, and more grab opportunities.

This buff may seem a tad unnecessary, but I thought it was simple enough (yet still very impactful) to where there'd be no harm in recommending it. Since the icicles are being "nerfed" (though really, it's just a fix), it'd be nice to see them trade off with something along these lines.

EDIT BY PIN: Removed the huge videos due to it being really hard on my browser

 

[EpicNonBread]

I'm not familiar with Project M Bowser. Does this mean that you're replacing Bowser's current Minus Down-Tilt with his Project M Down-Tilt, or that Bowser will gain a second variant of Down-Tilt which he can use alongside the regular one via a certain button combo?

Just to fill you in, I originally suggested PM's down tilt. Ludacario added it to his post on this thread. PM Bowser's dtilt is still both hits, but it is an individual A-press for each hit. This allows for some nice dtilt 1 cancels into other things, and a delayed dtilt 2 after dtilt 1 mix up.

 

[Pin Clock]

"More Spice" sounded like a valid Request to me. Just another way of saying he needs more style and polish, like two new taunts.

That said, I suppose I can ignore Requests that are not for very specific things from now on, if that's what the Devs want.

Yeah, it would be better if we focused on the specifics of the request rather than the concept. Like Two New Taunts would be a request, "Spice" is not really.

If that "Bent man" has the annoyed tone of "Bent, man, seriously, come on"...

It was not annoyed. It was "like Bent my man"

Can someone please show me the two Requests Ludacario and Pin are referencing here?
I must have missed them, as I'm not seeing anything regarding Bowser's RR HitBoxes or Ledge Jump anywhere in the list.

Back to Pin: Will you elaborate on this response?

These were discussed in the Discord.

I'm guessing that the "Jab1 cancels into upb and downb" Request is Rejected, since you said "or" and picked the other option?

Correct.

Also, still waiting for clarification on this...

With Snake's C4 buffs/rework, he would not need the features requested due to the added power of the C4. Snake requests were added since that post so I would be careful with what you move to Rejected.

Now onto today's requests:

Airdodges autocancel: Airdodges already only have 6 frames of landing lag in Minus, that's pretty low as it is
Remove Spin Stick to glide: I can see how spinning the stick making a character glide would come off as irritating, so we can take this out.
Button duration to glide: Characters that glide would like a reliable way to access glide...if we're removing spin to glide we should keep the hold button duration. Rejected request.
Crawling: The only way we would want do this is not for the slow movement option, but for Universal Crawldashing. There are some instances not moving them is wise though like....
Let TL Crawl: (cont.) TL's crouch, like Link's, lets him nullify oncoming projectiles. It serves a function, has a purpose. To give him and Link crawls would require and animation that either requires a long crawl start or a different crouch which would nerf these two especially since their crouchdashes are unlikely to go far.
DK UpB: Making the initial hit function as a combo breaker would be a much bigger buff for the Kong and sounds fun to do.
bAir: Diddy players are fine with the move as it is, so I don't want to touch it.
fAir hitboxes: Falco doesn't really need this added utility. We nerfed it because it was too much, not really because we wanted to alter it.
B-Reverse second laser: I can see a lot of unwanted accidents happening that would hurt Falco's game, and it doesn't really seem to have a practical use, so we're going no here.
Sm4sh Fox: We are avoiding any unnecessary redesigns
Jump out of shield: Okay.
Change his Final Smash: It's fine as is really, don't see the need to fix what isn't...is...broken? You know that saying never works here but the point I'm getting across here is that it works.

 

[EpicNonBread]

Remove Spin Stick to glide: I can see how spinning the stick making a character glide would come off as irritating, so we can take this out.

Could we seriously please not remove a control scheme just because a few people can't control their characters? The stick rotation is much more beneficial for those of us who use tap jump.

DK UpB: Making the initial hit function as a combo breaker would be a much bigger buff for the Kong and sounds fun to do.

I don't think this would be the right way to go about reworking the move. Making the individual hits harder to SDI and not adding a combo breaking hitbox on start up makes this an OoS option that presents more follow ups for DK after the last hit. It would be more of a buff to go this route.

 

[player_03]

Could we seriously please not remove a control scheme just because a few people can't control their characters?

Could we seriously please let Charizard, Pit, and Metaknight use this one simple maneuver?

Step 1: Midair jump.
Step 2: Move backwards briefly.
Step 3: Move forwards again.
Step 4: Use fair.

It's nothing flashy, but it's good for weaving around an opponent's hitbox and responding with your own. Why should these three characters be incapable of using it?

If the input was actually "spin the control stick to glide," that would be one thing. However, given that it can be activated just by moving the stick side-to-side, it needs to go.

 

[EpicNonBread]

If it's possible, then make the frame window for activating the glide with the analog stick shorter. It looks like you have to wait for the entire jump animation to transition to the idle falling animation before you can input moving forwards without triggering the glide. Cutting the activation window by a large portion could fix this.

Other work arounds for this could just be to move with the fair or aerial before making the input to move forward, or just wait until you've used a full jump before moving forward. Neither of these are perfect answers, but the control shouldn't be removed just because the three characters can't do a situational mindgame. Also anyone with good practice in any of those three characters shouldn't be accidentally gliding anyway.

 

[player_03]

Making the window shorter would be fine. None of these characters is Jigglypuff or Wario, so they can wait a couple frames.

As I mentioned above, requiring the player to actually spin the control stick (back -> up -> forwards -> down) is another way to fix this. This would be harder to do by accident (because there's no reason to press up and then down), and I assume this would be about as easy to use intentionally.

One final option is to make the glide start animation cancelable. You'd still lose the glide, but at least you wouldn't helplessly glide into a punish.

 

[EpicNonBread]

Ludacario also made the suggestion of making the feature toggle-able. I don't don't know what the limitations of brawl controls modifications are, but this would easily be the best option if an on/oft switch could be made for nametags.

I also like the idea of the startup animation cancel. Maybe into air dodge? Or immediately canceling on start up could put the character back into idle falling animation so that they aren't put into an action that they don't want.

 

[player_03]

Ludacario also made the suggestion of making the feature toggle-able.

You know, it might make sense to bundle it with tap jump. You want the feature because you use it with tap jump; I think it's unimportant because I have tap jump off. Plus, anyone who keeps tap jump on is comfortable with the control stick controlling this sort of thing.

I also like the idea of the startup animation cancel. Maybe into air dodge?

My idea was to cancel it into attacks. That way, if you accidentally do this when you meant to attack, you still get to attack.

 

[EpicNonBread]

You know, it might make sense to bundle it with tap jump. You want the feature because you use it with tap jump; I think it's unimportant because I have tap jump off. Plus, anyone who keeps tap jump on is comfortable with the control stick controlling this sort of thing.

You would think that, but Neville is an example of a tap jumper who uses the button press for gliding and dislikes the analog stick. I assume it's fully up to preference/how we picked up our methods of handling the game. I just definitely don't want half of the control options removed without being compensated for.

My idea was to cancel it into attacks. That way, if you accidentally do this when you meant to attack, you still get to attack.

Perhaps also into airdodge then to provide a defensive option?

 

[player_03]

Perhaps also into airdodge then to provide a defensive option?

Sure, why not?

 

[AGentleStar]

I have made changes to my original post. The only important thing I added was a section about Kirby fixes.
http://forums.brawlminus.net/thread...t-version-after-4-0bc.1212/page-18#post-22214

 

[Darxmarx]

When he uses R.O.B.'s copy ability, Kirby can shoot several beams one after the other. The move doesn't fizzle out after the second beam like R.O.B.'s does.

I'm assuming you put this here because you want it to properly match how R.O.B.'s neutralB works? Sorry if I misinterpreted that.
I'm fairly certain R.O.B. Kirby's properties function were intentionally made, and honestly, I kinda like the fact that it's better than R.O.B.'s own ability in this regard. It actually helps give incentive to copy an ability, ya know? Maybe my sense of balance is off though idk

 

[player_03]

I'm fairly certain R.O.B. Kirby's properties function were intentionally made, and honestly, I kinda like the fact that it's better than R.O.B.'s own ability in this regard.

I don't know, but it doesn't seem consistent. Some of Kirby's abilities are stronger while others are weaker, but as far as I can tell, the differences are mostly just oversights.

• Mario's fireballs deal 4%, Kirby's deal 5%. Firebrand does the same damage with lower range.
• Kirby's Luigi fireballs deal the same damage and go horizontally. Thunderhand does the same damage with lower range.
• Toad seems unchanged. (Though it's worth noting that Peach's Toad can forcibly remove Kirby's copy ability, which isn't otherwise possible.)
• As noted above, Kirby gets Fire Breath rather than Royal Rampage when copying Bowser.
  
• Yoshi's Egg Lay deals 7%, whereas Kirby's deals 15%.
• Giant Punch seems unchanged.
• Peanut Popgun seems mostly unchanged, but Diddy's peanuts do 8% if you catch them and throw them back at him, whereas Kirby's do 7%.
• Chomp seems unchanged if you land the grab, but if you only get the mouth closing hitbox, Kirby's deals 12% while Wario's deals 15%.
• As noted above, Kirby doesn't copy anything from Waluigi.
  
• Kirby still has all five of Link's arrows (normal, bomb, fire, ice, and light). They do the same damage uncharged, but when charged, they deal more damage and have less knockback.
• Nayru's Love seems unchanged.
• Kirby's Needle Storm charges faster than Sheik's.
• Warlock Punch seems unchanged.
• Kirby's arrows are identical to Toon Link's while in midair, but on the ground they deal 4% rather than 10%, and the ice arrows still freeze.
• Samus's uncharged Charge Shots deal 2% more than Kirby's. However, Kirby's fully-charged Charge Shot deals 35% rather than 25%, and annihilates Samus's fully-charged shot if the two meet.
• Kirby's uncharged Paralyzer seems unchanged from ZSS's. However, the charged version deals 7% rather than 6%.
• PK Flash seems mostly unchanged (including the semi-spike version, and the fact that it stays dangerous if interrupted). However, Ness's is more maneuverable, and can keep going downwards offstage, whereas Kirby's explodes on its own even if you hold the button.
• Kirby's PK Freeze deals a maximum of 18%, while Lucas's deals up to 19%. Otherwise, they seem the same, including the option to jump-cancel.
• Thunder Jolt seems unchanged.
• Rollout seems unchanged, including all the options for canceling it.
• As noted above, Kirby doesn't copy anything from Pichu.
• As noted above, Kirby doesn't copy anything from Mewtwo.
  
• Kirby's Water Gun does about half as much damage as Squirtle's, but the window for using the freezing version is longer.
• Kirby's Bullet Seed floats downwards in midair, but seems the same otherwise, including the two ways to cancel it.
• Kirby's Aura Sphere doesn't go as far as Lucario's. However, the uncharged version sends them upwards and slightly towards Kirby, while Lucario's just pushes them away.
• Kirby's version of Dedede's Inhale still deals damage while sucking them in, including continuous shield damage. Spitting them out seems unchanged.
• Meta Tornado seems unchanged.
• Fox's lasers deal 2%. Kirby's deal 3%.
• Kirby still shoots three of Falco's lasers at once, dealing 6%, while Falco only does 2%. However, Kirby doesn't seem to be able to fire more than two shots in a row. Also, Kirby can't switch to slow lasers.
• Kirby still shoots three of Wolf's lasers at once, dealing 9%, while Wolf only does 2%. However, if Kirby's blaster hits, the opponent can DI up to avoid the lasers, whereas if Wolf's blaster hits, the laser will too.
• Kirby's Shield Breaker can always be canceled into A-button attacks, whereas Marth's can only be canceled in midair.
• As noted above, Kirby doesn't copy anything from Roy.
  
• Eruption seems mostly unchanged, except that Kirby can use the self-damage version without first shielding to store it. Also, while overcharging the move, Kirby takes damage much slower than Ike does.
• Falcon Punch seems unchanged.
• Chef seems unchanged, though Kirby's version is much louder.
• As discussed above, when Kirby uses Ice Block, one of the two blocks is inert.
  
• As noted above, Kirby can spam Robo Beam, whereas R.O.B. has to wait a second or two.
  
• Palutena's Arrow seems unchanged.
• The fact that the Pikmin don't grab on makes Kirby's Pikmin Throw many times worse than Olimar's. Plus, the trajectory is higher and they move slower.
• Kirby's Hand Grenade is mostly unchanged except for one thing: pulling a Motion Sensor Bomb has no endlag. This means Kirby can do this.
  
• Kirby can't spam Homing Attack against shields, nor can he press down to bounce.

 

[EpicNonBread]

Another poorly organized list of seemingly random change proposals (mostly for Lucas Buffs).

-

Up B- Lucas can reuse Up B again after PK thunder collides with something other than himself (Ness' Up B).

OR

Increase the speed of the PK thunder projectile.

I understand that Lucas currently has the worse of the two PK Kids' Up B's because Lucas has the superior horizontal recovery, but in trying to use both Side B and Up B recovery options together, in rare situations the momentum of Lucas moving makes using Up B a hassle to use.

Down B- PSI Magnet should have similar frame data to Ness' in regards to when the move ends, when Lucas can act out of the move, and how quickly the move's hitbox is active.

The hitbox for Down B of course shouldn't be something too early like frame 1 because of the current utility that the knockback strength and angle already presents, but right now the move is just barely too slow to properly combo with and leaves Lucas in a very punishable state. It only acts as a follow up tool that doesn't always present further follow ups.

Neutral B- Reduce the travel speed of the PK freeze projectile.

The ability to jump cancel PK Freeze is awesome. It makes the option always safe in practical use. Unfortunately the move is more or less useless outside of throwing out a big hitbox and hoping someone runs into it. Very often the move can't be used combinaed with Lucas also approaching as the PK Freeze will fly off the stage. Reducing the travel speed of PK Freeze and essentially cutting how far it can reach all together would make it more potent tool while staying close to Lucas and applying additional pressure while he advances.

-

Rebalance pikmin. Buff damage from Purple pikmin. Nerf damage from latched pikmin (Blue,Red,White,Yellow)

Right now Olimar's Pikmin-utilizing-moves lose to most trades while Olimar is stuck in the animation of giving orders to the Pikmin, making him a free punish for the trade-winning move. This could be worked around by rewarding Olimar for confirmed hits with Pikmin, but not over buffing him too hard by nerfing the damage done from latched pikmin. I suggest Olimar's Up Air, Dair, Fair, Bair, UpSmash, DSmash, FSmash, and Side B all have damage increased when using a Purple, while the damage from other latched pikmin from Side B (Blue,Red,White,Yellow) is reduced from 2% to 1%.

-

Giga Bowser Super Taunt- Super armor added to Up Taunt.

This is a bit of an out-there suggestion, but I'd like to see a "Max Aura" type of super taunt on Bowser in which he transforms into Giga Bowser. Obviously this would need to be delicately balanced for it to be implemented, so here is my concept for it. To keep this balanced, the usage would need to be very situational by having the Bowser player go through a few conditions. If Bowser is above X% (a fair amount hasn't been concretely decided on yet), uses Up Taunt (Bowser roaring), takes damage during the start up animation frames before the roar comes out, AND the super taunt inputs (up taunt, down taunt, up taunt) are put in, Bowser then transforms into Project M's version of Giga Bowser. For anyone who is unfamiliar with Project M's Giga Bowser, he is completely reworked. In PM Giga Koopa is able to flinch, while taking regular damage and knockback. And the only differences to his kit are a shockwave on the ground for landing down b, weak hitboxes on his feet during his dash, and buffs to his throws. He is overall VERY susceptible to being combo'd by Project M's more combo oriented characters, so I imagine Minus' cast would be able to handle him fairly easily. This entire idea could potentially use more reworking to make it better suited for competitive play while keeping it fair and balanced, but I think while adding super taunt-like abilities to all characters is very unlikely, Bowser would be a pretty fun one to have.

 

[Darxmarx]

As noted above, Kirby gets Fire Breath rather than Royal Rampage when copying Bowser.

Regarding copy abilities of characters with brand new neutralB's, I've been told that it would be a lovely change, but the sheer difficulty of making a polished version for Kirby makes changing it a bit lower on the to-do list. I think I was once told that Kirby is a "big ball of hex."

The fact that the Pikmin don't grab on makes Kirby's Pikmin Throw many times worse than Olimar's. Plus, the trajectory is higher and they move slower.

Honestly, Olimar Kirby seems more like a trolling ability, because it still has a ridiculous rate-of-fire. Part of me likes it the way it is, but I can see why others would want it reverted to better match Olimar's properties.
Also, a little side note about Snake Kirby is that upB can be used to manually set off mines. You probably knew about this already, but I feel obligated to bring up how silly you can get with stage control in this regard.

 

[simsims2800]

I don't know, but it doesn't seem consistent. Some of Kirby's abilities are stronger while others are weaker, but as far as I can tell, the differences are mostly just oversights.

• Mario's fireballs deal 4%, Kirby's deal 5%. Firebrand does the same damage with lower range.
• Kirby's Luigi fireballs deal the same damage and go horizontally. Thunderhand does the same damage with lower range.
• Toad seems unchanged. (Though it's worth noting that Peach's Toad can forcibly remove Kirby's copy ability, which isn't otherwise possible.)
• As noted above, Kirby gets Fire Breath rather than Royal Rampage when copying Bowser.
  
• Yoshi's Egg Lay deals 7%, whereas Kirby's deals 15%.
• Giant Punch seems unchanged.
• Peanut Popgun seems mostly unchanged, but Diddy's peanuts do 8% if you catch them and throw them back at him, whereas Kirby's do 7%.
• Chomp seems unchanged if you land the grab, but if you only get the mouth closing hitbox, Kirby's deals 12% while Wario's deals 15%.
• As noted above, Kirby doesn't copy anything from Waluigi.
  
• Kirby still has all five of Link's arrows (normal, bomb, fire, ice, and light). They do the same damage uncharged, but when charged, they deal more damage and have less knockback.
• Nayru's Love seems unchanged.
• Kirby's Needle Storm charges faster than Sheik's.
• Warlock Punch seems unchanged.
• Kirby's arrows are identical to Toon Link's while in midair, but on the ground they deal 4% rather than 10%, and the ice arrows still freeze.
• Samus's uncharged Charge Shots deal 2% more than Kirby's. However, Kirby's fully-charged Charge Shot deals 35% rather than 25%, and annihilates Samus's fully-charged shot if the two meet.
• Kirby's uncharged Paralyzer seems unchanged from ZSS's. However, the charged version deals 7% rather than 6%.
• PK Flash seems mostly unchanged (including the semi-spike version, and the fact that it stays dangerous if interrupted). However, Ness's is more maneuverable, and can keep going downwards offstage, whereas Kirby's explodes on its own even if you hold the button.
• Kirby's PK Freeze deals a maximum of 18%, while Lucas's deals up to 19%. Otherwise, they seem the same, including the option to jump-cancel.
• Thunder Jolt seems unchanged.
• Rollout seems unchanged, including all the options for canceling it.
• As noted above, Kirby doesn't copy anything from Pichu.
• As noted above, Kirby doesn't copy anything from Mewtwo.
  
• Kirby's Water Gun does about half as much damage as Squirtle's, but the window for using the freezing version is longer.
• Kirby's Bullet Seed floats downwards in midair, but seems the same otherwise, including the two ways to cancel it.
• Kirby's Aura Sphere doesn't go as far as Lucario's. However, the uncharged version sends them upwards and slightly towards Kirby, while Lucario's just pushes them away.
• Kirby's version of Dedede's Inhale still deals damage while sucking them in, including continuous shield damage. Spitting them out seems unchanged.
• Meta Tornado seems unchanged.
• Fox's lasers deal 2%. Kirby's deal 3%.
• Kirby still shoots three of Falco's lasers at once, dealing 6%, while Falco only does 2%. However, Kirby doesn't seem to be able to fire more than two shots in a row. Also, Kirby can't switch to slow lasers.
• Kirby still shoots three of Wolf's lasers at once, dealing 9%, while Wolf only does 2%. However, if Kirby's blaster hits, the opponent can DI up to avoid the lasers, whereas if Wolf's blaster hits, the laser will too.
• Kirby's Shield Breaker can always be canceled into A-button attacks, whereas Marth's can only be canceled in midair.
• As noted above, Kirby doesn't copy anything from Roy.
  
• Eruption seems mostly unchanged, except that Kirby can use the self-damage version without first shielding to store it. Also, while overcharging the move, Kirby takes damage much slower than Ike does.
• Falcon Punch seems unchanged.
• Chef seems unchanged, though Kirby's version is much louder.
• As discussed above, when Kirby uses Ice Block, one of the two blocks is inert.
  
• As noted above, Kirby can spam Robo Beam, whereas R.O.B. has to wait a second or two.
  
• Palutena's Arrow seems unchanged.
• The fact that the Pikmin don't grab on makes Kirby's Pikmin Throw many times worse than Olimar's. Plus, the trajectory is higher and they move slower.
• Kirby's Hand Grenade is mostly unchanged except for one thing: pulling a Motion Sensor Bomb has no endlag. This means Kirby can do this.
  
• Kirby can't spam Homing Attack against shields, nor can he press down to bounce.

Dude, you do realize that Olimar!Kirby is far superior to what it would be otherwise, right? By simply spamming B, Olimar!Kirby can completely invalidate Olimar, since Kirby's Pikmin go through Olimar's every time. In fact, by changing Olimar!Kirby, it would be a nerf to Kirby and a depolarization of the matchup... although is that really a bad thing?

 

[snuffychris605]

Could Lucario get some sort of endlag on UpB and Smashes? Their way too safe that makes it un-enjoyable to fight against.

 

[AGentleStar]

I don't want this to cover the entire thread, so I enclosed it in spoilers.

player_03

Spoiler

Rollout seems unchanged, including all the options for canceling it.

Refresh my memory. What are the options for canceling rollout exactly?

Kirby's Bullet Seed floats downwards in midair, but seems the same otherwise, including the two ways to cancel it.

I don't know the other option, but I know that you can cancel Bullet seed with Up B. I haven't been able to get Kirby to do that. Do you mind showing a gif of that?

Chef seems unchanged, though Kirby's version is much louder.

Lmao, wut! That's funny. I wonder why that is. This should probably be fixed.

Kirby's Hand Grenade is mostly unchanged except for one thing: pulling a Motion Sensor Bomb has no endlag. This means Kirby can do this.

Wat?! That's insane. lol. That seems like something Snake from version 2.X was able to do but they removed because it was too broken.

The fact that the Pikmin don't grab on makes Kirby's Pikmin Throw many times worse than Olimar's. Plus, the trajectory is higher and they move slower.

I dunno. They may not stick to the opponent, but having a bunch of pikmin spawn from anywhere and being thrown at a faster rate than R.O.B.'s lasers seems like an okay tradeoff.

Kirby can't spam Homing Attack against shields, nor can he press down to bounce.

Awww. That would've been nice.


Overall, If the dev team was trying to make Kirby's abilities have tweaks like "less range for more power," then I don't have that much of a problem with it. But some of these should probably be retooled to be close to what the original move could do. I'd prefer them to be identical, but some of these don't seem that bad when you consider that the copy abilities are made to be compatible with Kirby's particular air speed, hurtbox size, framedata, etc.

EpicNonBread

Spoiler

I understand that Lucas currently has the worse of the two PK Kids' Up B's because Lucas has the superior horizontal recovery, but in trying to use both Side B and Up B recovery options together, in rare situations the momentum of Lucas moving makes using Up B a hassle to use.

Ness is able to use his PK Thunder2 a second time if the ball of PK Thunder gets intercepted. With Lucas, If his PK Thunder2 hits a ceiling, he can cancel his falling momentum with a SECOND PK Thunder. While I'll agree that Lucas' vertical recovery isn't as safe, especially given that Ness has an electric shield around him while he's doing the move, I think there is still some utility with Lucas. It's more difficult to pull off, especially since, more often than not, Lucas will SLIDE across the ceiling rather than HIT it, but it is something to consider.

Down B- PSI Magnet should have similar frame data to Ness' in regards to when the move ends, when Lucas can act out of the move, and how quickly the move's hitbox is active.

The hitbox for Down B of course shouldn't be something too early like frame 1 because of the current utility that the knockback strength and angle already presents, but right now the move is just barely too slow to properly combo with and leaves Lucas in a very punishable state. It only acts as a follow up tool that doesn't always present further follow ups.

I always saw this move as a "GET OFF ME!" move for ending a combo or gimping offstage recoveries. I'm not that skilled with Lucas currently, but that's how I viewed this version of Lucas' PSI Magnet as opposed to his P:M counterpart.

Neutral B- Reduce the travel speed of the PK freeze projectile.

The ability to jump cancel PK Freeze is awesome. It makes the option always safe in practical use. Unfortunately the move is more or less useless outside of throwing out a big hitbox and hoping someone runs into it. Very often the move can't be used combinaed with Lucas also approaching as the PK Freeze will fly off the stage. Reducing the travel speed of PK Freeze and essentially cutting how far it can reach all together would make it more potent tool while staying close to Lucas and applying additional pressure while he advances.

Jump canceling the PK Freeze makes it reeeeeaaaallly hard to detonate it at the desired location because of how mobile it is. I agree with you on that. But at the same time, I feel it should be fast so it isn't predictable. Maybe give it a bigger blast radius at the cost of doing less damage. Maybe let the PK Freeze be able to change directions on a dime at the cost of being slippery to control. I'm not sure tbh.

Rebalance pikmin. Buff damage from Purple pikmin. Nerf damage from latched pikmin (Blue,Red,White,Yellow)

Right now Olimar's Pikmin-utilizing-moves lose to most trades while Olimar is stuck in the animation of giving orders to the Pikmin, making him a free punish for the trade-winning move. This could be worked around by rewarding Olimar for confirmed hits with Pikmin, but not over buffing him too hard by nerfing the damage done from latched pikmin. I suggest Olimar's Up Air, Dair, Fair, Bair, UpSmash, DSmash, FSmash, and Side B all have damage increased when using a Purple, while the damage from other latched pikmin from Side B (Blue,Red,White,Yellow) is reduced from 2% to 1%.

I don't quite understant so let me see if I can clarify: You're saying Buff Olimar himself (ftilt, utilt, dtilt, jab, nair, etc.) and Nerf the Pikmin (side b, up b, uair, dair, etc.) in terms of their overall damage output, but increase their overall priority/hitstun/whatever? Tell me if this is what you mean, because I don't understand your suggestion from a general sense. lol

Giga Bowser Super Taunt- Super armor added to Up Taunt.

This is a bit of an out-there suggestion, but I'd like to see a "Max Aura" type of super taunt on Bowser in which he transforms into Giga Bowser. Obviously this would need to be delicately balanced for it to be implemented, so here is my concept for it. To keep this balanced, the usage would need to be very situational by having the Bowser player go through a few conditions. If Bowser is above X% (a fair amount hasn't been concretely decided on yet), uses Up Taunt (Bowser roaring), takes damage during the start up animation frames before the roar comes out, AND the super taunt inputs (up taunt, down taunt, up taunt) are put in, Bowser then transforms into Project M's version of Giga Bowser. For anyone who is unfamiliar with Project M's Giga Bowser, he is completely reworked. In PM Giga Koopa is able to flinch, while taking regular damage and knockback. And the only differences to his kit are a shockwave on the ground for landing down b, weak hitboxes on his feet during his dash, and buffs to his throws. He is overall VERY susceptible to being combo'd by Project M's more combo oriented characters, so I imagine Minus' cast would be able to handle him fairly easily. This entire idea could potentially use more reworking to make it better suited for competitive play while keeping it fair and balanced, but I think while adding super taunt-like abilities to all characters is very unlikely, Bowser would be a pretty fun one to have.

...Sounds like somebody's been playing Brawl Zeus. Amirite or amirite?

That sounds like your suggesting they give Bowser an Ultimate transformation/attack which I'd be down for. At the same time, I don't think ultimate moves are needed for Minus. Characters can KO about as efficiently as characters in Smash 64. Plus, I believe the Minus Dev Team said they are trying to move away from complex move pools.

((Examples include Holding or tapping the A button to do two types of Neural Air's with Pichu or Holding Down on the Control Stick while charging a FSmash with Mr. G&W to use the parachute version.))

It's why I stated in my Suggestions post that Pichu have some of the more unnecessary moves taken out to have a Pichu that feels more congruent with his overall playstyle. Make Pichu have more physical attacks (namely because Pichu is a pre-evolution and therefore, has weaker electric moves.) and have his strongest attacks be Smash attacks with slightly less range than Pikachu. I dunno. SOMETHING to that effect.

Same thing with Bowser. An Ultimate would be cool, but not congruent with how Bowser works in-game. He's a grappler type, like Zangief from Street Fighter, who specializes in CQC, grabs, and powering through mis-spaced or laggy attacks with armor. P:M Giga Bowser doesn't really fit with this. I hope you get where I'm coming from.

Also, you're list wasn't badly organized. It's better than mine, honestly.

 

[EpicNonBread]

With Lucas, If his PK Thunder2 hits a ceiling, he can cancel his falling momentum with a SECOND PK Thunder.

As you already mention, the move is too inconsistent with when he hits the wall instead of sliding against it. It really calls for a much different buff, and increasing the speed of the projectile to have better control of Lucas's angle would be the simplest fix.

I always saw this move as a "GET OFF ME!" move for ending a combo

This is essentially what it is for, but I would like to see it have the dual utility of being a combo move and a combo finisher.

I feel it should be fast so it isn't predictable. Maybe give it a bigger blast radius at the cost of doing less damage.

It's already a highly telegraphed move with a slow start up. It's rather predictable. The point isn't that you're expecting for it to hit, but having it actually stay relatively closer to Lucas so that it stays on stage would make it more of a threat for the opponent to be wary of. Just increasing the hitbox would not fix the issue if the projectile is still going to just fly off the screen.

I don't quite understant so let me see if I can clarify

"rewarding Olimar for confirmed hits with Pikmin, but not over buffing him too hard by nerfing the damage done from latched pikmin."

"I suggest Olimar's Up Air, Dair, Fair, Bair, UpSmash, DSmash, FSmash, and Side B all have damage increased when using a Purple, while the damage from other latched pikmin from Side B (Blue,Red,White,Yellow) is reduced from 2% to 1%."

I am suggesting all of Olimar's moves that use Purple pikmin (excluding Up B) have their damage increased, and all of the pikmin that grab onto opponents from Side B, should have their damage reduced from 2% to 1% to compensate. I don't actually know how much more this can be explained.

...Sounds like somebody's been playing Brawl Zeus. Amirite or amirite?

No... I actually really dislike Zeus. The gameplay feels stiff and the characters aren't designed very well. But that's just me.

At the same time, I don't think ultimate moves are needed for Minus.

I don't want some form of ultimate moves implemented across the board, but right now Lucario's Max Aura is a little too good, and Giga Bowser is essentially an untouched piece of vBrawl that Minus has yet to touch up on, so putting two and two together I figured this would be an extremely cool way to implement a new "Minus-like" feature. While I do agree that this could be seen as not really fitting his kit, it wasn't really designed with the intention of fitting his kit. It is more of just adding something that would pretty much be a buff that would rarely see competitive play, but would give Minus some points for doing another unique touch on a character.

 

[player_03]

By simply spamming B, Olimar!Kirby can completely invalidate Olimar, since Kirby's Pikmin go through Olimar's every time.

Huh. For some reason I was thinking in terms of "Kirby vs. an average character" rather than "Kirby vs. Olimar." Never mind, then.

Refresh my memory. What are the options for canceling rollout exactly?

Things you can cancel Rollout into:

- Jab
- Tilts
- Smashes (fsmash is hard, but possible)
- Aerials
- Specials (including Rollout!)
- Jump
- Shield
- Grab
- Sidestep
- Roll (either direction)
- Airdodge

Fsmash, ftilt, and side special can be done backwards. Specials can also be B-reversed. (Side special can be turned around and then B-reversed, allowing for wavebouncing.)

Other than that, none of these can be turned around. (For instance, this means no reverse aerial rushes.)

Things you can't cancel Rollout into:

- Walk
- Run
- Dash attack
- Walljump
- Taunts

All of this applies to both Kirby and Jigglypuff. All of this applies if you cancel Rollout before hitting someone. All of this applies if you cancel Rollout after hitting someone. Yes, I tested it.

I know that you can cancel Bullet seed with Up B. I haven't been able to get Kirby to do that.

With Ivysaur, you have to release B and then quickly press up-B. With Kirby, you can keep holding B, and just press up.

 

[AGentleStar]

I don't want some form of ultimate moves implemented across the board, but right now Lucario's Max Aura is a little too good, and Giga Bowser is essentially an untouched piece of vBrawl that Minus has yet to touch up on, so putting two and two together I figured this would be an extremely cool way to implement a new "Minus-like" feature.

Ehhh. Giga Bowser is already his final smash. This isn't really necessary. If you want Lucario's Max Aura to be removed then go for it.

While I do agree that this could be seen as not really fitting his kit, it wasn't really designed with the intention of fitting his kit.

...Moves need to fit with their already established kit or, at the very least, make sense for their character.. If we didn't follow this rule, then we would be free to arbitrarily give Jigglypuff a Kamehameha move or Mario unlimited vacuum properties that have his opponent always gravitate towards them. It's gotta make sense. That's how I see it.

This is essentially what it is for, but I would like to see it have the dual utility of being a combo move and a combo finisher.

This might be asking for a little too much. I mean, yeah. DK has a down special that can combo and KO, but with Lucas, why fix what isn't broken?

It's already a highly telegraphed move with a slow start up. It's rather predictable. The point isn't that you're expecting for it to hit, but having it actually stay relatively closer to Lucas so that it stays on stage would make it more of a threat for the opponent to be wary of. Just increasing the hitbox would not fix the issue if the projectile is still going to just fly off the screen.

If you're opponent is in the air and in hitstun after you throw out a chain of hits, you can finish them off with a PK Ice. OR you could catch them while you're trying to recover. OR you could space them out by wildly throwing out JCed-PK Ice (though I'd argue that isn't an efficient way to play the neutral game). Me saying that PK Ice should be made more unpredictable is a bit outlandish, I'll admit. But I don't know where your getting the idea that the move is soooo uncontrollable that you can't hit anyone with it.

I am suggesting all of Olimar's moves that use Purple pikmin (excluding Up B) have their damage increased, and all of the pikmin that grab onto opponents from Side B, should have their damage reduced from 2% to 1% to compensate. I don't actually know how much more this can be explained.

Ok. Ignoring the rude quip at the end, I can see what you are getting at. You don't like the low priority of the pikmin toss (side b) and that in exchange for making the pikmin weaker, you make the purple pikmin have, let's say 1-2% higher than it normally is.

1. If the pikmin had a high priorty, Olimar could just toss all of his pikmin at the opponent and they couldn't do anything aside from a fully charged charge shot or Aura Sphere because the pikmin do a ton of damage with many latched on. They latch on even if your shield is up, so changing the percentage form 2% to 1% won't accommodate for the fact that pikmin can be thrown without worrying about projectiles.
2. What would increasing the damage for purple pikmin do for Olimar? It just seems like an unnecessary buff at best. Also, you said:

Olimar's Pikmin-utilizing-moves lose to most trades while Olimar is stuck in the animation of giving orders to the Pikmin, making him a free punish for the trade-winning move.

...As if to say Olimar's Side B or Down B are laggy. Down B can be cancelled into itself and Side B can be mashed to throw multiple pikmin in a couple seconds.






player_03

Things you can cancel Rollout into:

- Jab
- Tilts
- Smashes (fsmash is hard, but possible)
- Aerials
- Specials (including Rollout!)
- Jump
- Shield
- Grab
- Sidestep
- Roll (either direction)
- Airdodge

Fsmash, ftilt, and side special can be done backwards. Specials can also be B-reversed. (Side special can be turned around and then B-reversed, allowing for wavebouncing.)

Other than that, none of these can be turned around. (For instance, this means no reverse aerial rushes.)

Things you can't cancel Rollout into:

- Walk
- Run
- Dash attack
- Walljump
- Taunts

All of this applies to both Kirby and Jigglypuff. All of this applies if you cancel Rollout before hitting someone. All of this applies if you cancel Rollout after hitting someone. Yes, I tested it.

Awesome! Thank you. I've been wondering for the longest time what exactly you could cancel Rollout into. Much appreciated!

With Ivysaur, you have to release B and then quickly press up-B. With Kirby, you can keep holding B, and just press up

Oh. That's...interesting. Well, thanks for the heads up. I did not know that.

 

[EpicNonBread]

Giga Bowser is already his final smash. This isn't really necessary. If you want Lucario's Max Aura to be removed then go for it.

Personally I think Max Aura needs a mild nerfing but that is irrelevant. The point of the suggestion is to see Giga Bowser in competitive play while keeping him a balanced feature.

...Moves need to fit with their already established kit or, at the very least, make sense for their character.. If we didn't follow this rule, then we would be free to arbitrarily give Jigglypuff a Kamehameha move or Mario unlimited vacuum properties that have his opponent always gravitate towards them.

Thinking back on it, a transformation to PM Giga Bowser actually fits the kit rather well if I really wanted to make an argument for it. But that's not the point. There are quite a few unnecessary character specific features that aren't exactly needed for a characters kit. Falco's slow laser's don't see a lot of tournament play mostly because their utility just doesn't stack up with the utility of fast lasers. Falco is a high pressuring, safe, combo heavy character. The slow lasers were just fluff, which is what I am proposing the Super Taunt for. There are actually a lot of examples in Minus of how characters go against the original kits and play styles that were set out by the original titles. Falco's quad jump and rediculous Up B goes against his design as a glass cannon, Mario's reverse FLUDD doesn't make much sense for a character that was given fireballs, cape, and FLUDD to keep enemies out.

But I don't know where your getting the idea that the move is soooo uncontrollable that you can't hit anyone with it.

The point of this suggestions was to allow for PK freeze to be an automatic pressure tool while moving Lucas across the stage. The distance that the projectile and Lucas go are too separate to focus the pressure from both the projectile and Lucas in one spot.

This might be asking for a little too much. I mean, yeah. DK has a down special that can combo and KO, but with Lucas, why fix what isn't broken?

A common issue with the Minus cast is the amount of tech skill/effort is required for a reward versus how good the reward is, and how this equation is put in place among the characters. Meta Knight for example has very minimal technical requirements being called on from the player, but his reward is devastatingly high. Mixed with his easy to use recovery (one of the easiest in the game) and other attributes, this makes him one of the best characters in the game without question. Lucas is a character who is more technically requiring to get anything close to resembling the same kind of reward that a character like Meta Knight outputs. His combos require a little tighter frame specific timing, includes more 50/50 or DI-dependent situations, and his recovery is among the more difficult to use and is much more open to error (not holding B for the proper momentum of Side B, angling the projectile of Up B, etc.). When you have a character that has to put in more effort for a reward that is less than that of a character who has to put in less effort, this is seen as unfair. Two ways to fix this are to increase the reward for Lucas, or to reduce the difficulty of controlling him. His rewards are already fantastic where they are. All three smashes kill at a very good percent (excluding DSmash which can be escaped), Zair, Dair, DTilt, Grab, and Up B all allow for killing follow ups, and his movement is pretty good for utilizing this. A more balanced way to lightly tweak him would be to compensate for how error prone he is to control, which is why I suggested the Up B buff for his recovery, better utilization of his probably least used move, and for slightly more movement out of, and better access to his Down B.

Ok. Ignoring the rude quip at the end, I can see what you are getting at.

This was not being rude. You are still very clearly not understanding what my Olimar changes are stating and suggesting, and because of this I am being forced to repeat myself, despite wording the suggestions in the most plain comprehensible terms possible.

You went on a totally different direction from what I was saying, and I seriously recommend you reread what I have highlighted in bold in my previous response. I did not at any point suggest for the "priority" of Side B to be increased, and I have no idea where you picked that up from. You somehow misunderstood "pikmin utilizing moves" as me referring to Side B. When I said "Pikmin-utilizing-moves lose to most trades", I was talking about all of his neutral moves that literally use Pikmin.