Community Request Thread for the next version after 4.0BC

AGentleStar

Video Editor
Thinking back on it, a transformation to PM Giga Bowser actually fits the kit rather well if I really wanted to make an argument for it. But that's not the point. There are quite a few unnecessary character specific features that aren't exactly needed for a characters kit. Falco's slow laser's don't see a lot of tournament play mostly because their utility just doesn't stack up with the utility of fast lasers. Falco is a high pressuring, safe, combo heavy character. The slow lasers were just fluff, which is what I am proposing the Super Taunt for. There are actually a lot of examples in Minus of how characters go against the original kits and play styles that were set out by the original titles. Falco's quad jump and rediculous Up B goes against his design as a glass cannon, Mario's reverse FLUDD doesn't make much sense for a character that was given fireballs, cape, and FLUDD to keep enemies out.

PM Giga Bowser is more like Melee/PM Bowser. Not like Minus Bowser. I can't simplify it any more than that. Also, I'm not talking about how a move makes "sense" in that it follows conventional physics. Falco already has lasers so implementing something silly like slow lasers makes "sense" in the sense that he already has the move. Falco says "personally, I prefer the air." You can't tell me that wasn't the inspiration for having 4 jumps. Saying things like "if I really wanted to make an argument for it" just makes you look like you didn't do any research or have any forethought.

The point of this suggestions was to allow for PK freeze to be an automatic pressure tool while moving Lucas across the stage. The distance that the projectile and Lucas go are too separate to focus the pressure from both the projectile and Lucas in one spot.

If you actually read my first comment to you, you will notice that I said I AGREED WITH YOU! All I'm saying is that it isn't so hard to control that the move is useless.

Meta Knight for example has very minimal technical requirements being called on from the player, but his reward is devastatingly high. Mixed with his easy to use recovery (one of the easiest in the game) and other attributes, this makes him one of the best characters in the game without question.

I understand that to the untrained eye, Meta Knight seems like an easy character the gets free wins like vBrawl MK. As a MK main myself, I know that Minus MK and vBrawl MK are vastly different in framedata and utility. While both may have great recoveries, vBrawl MK has Transcendent Priority on his most of his Specials and was significantly faster endlag. Minus MK may be still really good, but that's just inherent to how his moves work. Fox and Pikachu are characters that have consistently being at worst above average characters in every Smash game. It's just how there moves work.

MK is easy to play in many respects, but MK mains who has labbed with the character to death will know that he has flaws. I can't count the number of times I've seen newbies play MK and fail to understand how to recover properly. Hell, Joeybeta got thrashed when he played MK against Ludacario in Minus Before Christmas in Winners Semis because kept trying to force an approach with Side B. MK doesn't any projectiles nor does he have many long ranged moves besides bair and Side B. If a character you like takes more skill to be win, then put some more effort into it. It's not a gimme. YOU SHOULD KNOW! You had to play the patient game against Neville to win because of his great mobility.

When you have a character that has to put in more effort for a reward that is less than that of a character who has to put in less effort, this is seen as unfair. Two ways to fix this are to increase the reward for Lucas, or to reduce the difficulty of controlling him. His rewards are already fantastic where they are. All three smashes kill at a very good percent (excluding DSmash which can be escaped), Zair, Dair, DTilt, Grab, and Up B all allow for killing follow ups, and his movement is pretty good for utilizing this.

You said Lucas nets little reward for a lot of effort, yet you later said he has efficient Smash attacks, zair, dair, dtilt, grab, and up b. You're contradicting yourself. It balances out the bad recovery in many ways.

Olimar's Pikmin-utilizing-moves lose to most trades while Olimar is stuck in the animation of giving orders to the Pikmin

This is what I was talking about with priority. Please think through what you want to suggest and then post it.

This was not being rude. You are still very clearly not understanding what my Olimar changes are stating and suggesting, and because of this I am being forced to repeat myself, despite wording the suggestions in the most plain comprehensible terms possible.

I do understand, buddy. You don't need to be so hostile all the time. Thinking through your ideas beforehand prevents confusion. Otherwise, it'll seem like you enjoy putting people down who don't understand you. :nesmk:
 

EpicNonBread

Malfunctioning Machinery
Minus Backroom
Playtester
PM Giga Bowser is more like Melee/PM Bowser. Not like Minus Bowser.

Allow me to rephrase it then because I guess I have to. A Minus variation of Giga Bowser with the rebalancing of Project M Giga Bowser in mind.

Also, I'm not talking about how a move makes "sense" in that it follows conventional physics.
I uhh... neither am I...? I don't know where this came from. You brought up character design fitting with their moveset/kit and that's what I responded to.

Falco says "personally, I prefer the air." You can't tell me that wasn't the inspiration for having 4 jumps.

This is just one of the examples of Minus' poor design. Keeping this related to the topic of characters kits, I was saying his stupid amount of jumps and recovery height goes against his kit that his neutrals and combo game were design for, making a comparison in that it is not really uncommon for Minus to make decisions while disregarding a character's kit.

Saying things like "if I really wanted to make an argument for it" just makes you look like you didn't do any research or have any forethought.

No, I am just choosing not to argue it. Because as I also very clearly said, that is not related to the point I am making. I don't think some form of Giga Bowser should be added because it would fit his kit. It should be added because it would be addition fluff to a character and would have very little impact on the character while giving him a minuscule buff.

If you actually read my first comment
misreads all of my Olimar suggestions.

I understand that to the untrained eye, Meta Knight seems like an easy character the gets free wins like vBrawl MK

No, he still is.

Minus MK may be still really good, but that's just inherent to how his moves work.

Actually no it isn't. It has to do with how the character is designed. His moves are good but his weaknesses don't balance out how his entire design gets him his excellent MU advantages, which is his main issue.

MK mains who has labbed with the character to death will know that he has flaws.

"His moves are good but his weaknesses don't balance out how his entire design gets him his excellent MU advantages, which is his main issue."

I can't count the number of times I've seen newbies play MK and fail to understand how to recover properly. Hell, Joeybeta got thrashed when he played MK against Ludacario in Minus Before Christmas in Winners Semis because kept trying to force an approach with Side B. MK doesn't any projectiles nor does he have many long ranged moves besides bair and Side B.

If someone fails to recover with Meta Knight they are brain dead. Also this entire section is irrelevant.

If a character you like takes more skill to be win, then put some more effort into it.

Again, you are missing the point of anything I am saying and it's getting partially irritating. Character design that requires more effort to play a character but doesn't yield the reward of other very obviously easier to play characters is not good design.

You said Lucas nets little reward for a lot of effort, yet you later said he has efficient Smash attacks, zair, dair, dtilt, grab, and up b. You're contradicting yourself. It balances out the bad recovery in many ways.

No.
No. No. No. No... No I'm really really not. He has good rewards, MK has better rewards. MK puts in absolutely no effort. Lucas puts in a whole lot of effort. I'm saying he should be on par with MK in regards to how the amount of effort should directly correlate to how much reward is given.

This is what I was talking about with priority. Please think through what you want to suggest and then post it.

I do understand, buddy. You don't need to be so hostile all the time.


Allllllllrighty that's enough for me. Gunna go ahead and end this discussion here because this is just getting too mentality taxing to go back and fourth on.

Thinking through your ideas beforehand prevents confusion. Otherwise, it'll seem like you enjoy putting people down who don't understand you.

bowser MU chart.
 
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AGentleStar

Video Editor
This is just one of the examples of Minus' poor design. Keeping this related to the topic of characters kits, I was saying his stupid amount of jumps and recovery height goes against his kit that his neutrals and combo game were design for, making a comparison in that it is not really uncommon for Minus to make decisions while disregarding a character's kit.

Well, they're fixing Falco's recovery, so the idea about Minus having poor design is being worked on.

No, I am just choosing not to argue it. Because as I also very clearly said, that is not related to the point I am making. I don't think some form of Giga Bowser should be added because it would fit his kit. It should be added because it would be addition fluff to a character and would have very little impact on the character while giving him a minuscule buff.

The dev team doesn't need to add additional fluff to a character. It's meaningless

No, he still is.

No, you're just being stubborn.

Actually no it doesn't. It has to do with how the character is designed. His moves are good but his weaknesses don't balance out how his entire design gets him his excellent MU advantages, which is his main issue.

I made my point quite clear, so I won't bother fueling your nonsense.

"His moves are good but his weaknesses don't balance out how his entire design gets him his excellent MU advantages, which is his main issue."

MK being a good character is only an issue to you because of your bias. I don't like saying this because there are some cases where characters like Bayonetta in Smash 4 have legitimate balance issues, but..... LEARN TO ADAPT!

If someone fails to recover with Meta Knight they are brain dead. Also this entire section is irrelevant.

Bringing up evidence to back my arguments seems rather relevant to me.

Again, you are missing the point of anything I am saying and it's getting partially irritating. Character design that requires more effort to play a character but doesn't yield the reward of other very obviously easier to play characters is not good design.

So, you're an anti tier-whore? I get not preferring high tiers, but banning/changing/nerfing them solely on suspicion isn't always the best option. Smash 4 has spoiled a lot of people in that regard.

No.
No. No. No. No... No I'm really really not. He has good rewards, MK has better rewards. MK puts in absolutely no effort. Lucas puts in a whole lot of effort. I'm saying he should be on par with MK in regards to how the amount of effort should directly correlate to how much reward is given.

You're exaggerating. And even if MK may be better than Lucas, that's not inherently a bad thing! Why is it that so many Smash players spend more time complaining about the a character when they could be practicing at getting better at the goddamn game.

bowser MU chart.

AND you just gave up on arguing! Well done. I guess we're now resorting to getting "dirt" on each other. May I remind you that I said I am willing to hear ANY AND ALL FEEDBACK on the that MU chart. And I said, verbatim, "if you have any questions, PM me and I'll get back with you as soon as I can," which you can find at the bottom of my post! I have since abandoned the project only due to my much more important IRL concerns. You irritating bigot!

I don't care anymore about this conversation anymore. I'm moving on. :nesmk:
 

Neville

GG M8s
Minus Backroom
Well, they're fixing Falco's recovery, so the idea about Minus having poor design is being worked on.



The dev team doesn't need to add additional fluff to a character. It's meaningless



No, you're just being stubborn.



I made my point quite clear, so I won't bother fueling your nonsense.



MK being a good character is only an issue to you because of your bias. I don't like saying this because there are some cases where characters like Bayonetta in Smash 4 have legitimate balance issues, but..... LEARN TO ADAPT!



Bringing up evidence to back my arguments seems rather relevant to me.



So, you're an anti tier-whore? I get not preferring high tiers, but banning/changing/nerfing them solely on suspicion isn't always the best option. Smash 4 has spoiled a lot of people in that regard.



You're exaggerating. And even if MK may be better than Lucas, that's not inherently a bad thing! Why is it that so many Smash players spend more time complaining about the a character when they could be practicing at getting better at the goddamn game.



AND you just gave up on arguing! Well done. I guess we're now resorting to getting "dirt" on each other. May I remind you that I said I am willing to hear ANY AND ALL FEEDBACK on the that MU chart. And I said, verbatim, "if you have any questions, PM me and I'll get back with you as soon as I can," which you can find at the bottom of my post! I have since abandoned the project only due to my much more important IRL concerns. You irritating bigot!

I don't care anymore about this conversation anymore. I'm moving on. :nesmk:
Dude ENB is the best MK player here. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the idea that MK is broken. I value ENB's opinion on MK more than I value anyone else's.
 

EpicNonBread

Malfunctioning Machinery
Minus Backroom
Playtester
I'm going to immediately go back on my word and chime in again. Because there is just some freeeeeeesh stuff here that I'd love to milk for more.

LEARN TO ADAPT!
there are some cases where characters like Bayonetta in Smash 4 have legitimate balance issues

studio laughter. (in memory of Maye)

So, you're an anti tier-whore? I get not preferring high tiers, but banning/changing/nerfing them solely on suspicion isn't always the best option. Smash 4 has spoiled a lot of people in that regard.

It was around this point in reading where I decided to stop taking this conversation seriously. Please please please tell me how in the world we got to banning (why is this word even here?) and nerfing characters based solely on suspicion and not being an obviously knowledgeable player of Smash.

(Also Smash 4 didn't spoil anyone. Balancing and redesigning has been an intriguing part of game development long before Smash 4 existed. It only makes sense that as a modification of a game that is very open to being changed, that people will desire change.)

(Also there are no tier whores in the Minus community to my knowledge, and there is no such thing as an "anti tier whore")

No, you're just being stubborn.

lmao no no, seriously. I actually just know what I'm talking about.

I made my point quite clear, so I won't bother fueling your nonsense.

I am poking fun at your points for being laughably under-explained. You seem to have this strange misunderstanding that because some characters already have exceptionally good tools and that naturally some characters are better than others, that buffing, nerfing, and redesigning can't be used to balance the game.

You're exaggerating.

Noooooooooooooo. No I'm not silly.

And even if MK may be better than Lucas, that's not inherently a bad thing! Why is it that so many Smash players spend more time complaining about the a character when they could be practicing at getting better at the goddamn game.

I see this misconception a lot, so I'm going to try to explain here carefully.

There comes a time when you get good at Smash (crazy, I know). It doesn't happen to everyone, but some of us are just lucky or whatever (or maybe we have in depth experience with most Smash titles over the span of a couple years or idk, somethin' nutty like that). You see, when you're bad at the game you complain for character changes because you don't want to take the time to "adapt" (that big word you threw at me). When you're content with your skill level is in the game, have played Smash for a long enough time where you have a generally good concept of what balance and design for the game is, then you complain for character changes because you care about the game and its balance as a competitive experience. Do you get it? I'm one of the best Minus players (but in reality we're all pretty bad), and I'm the best MK this game is probably going to see for a while. Why would I complain about character imbalance when I play the character that beats a majority of the cast and have shown to be able to take an official tournament (and not just using MK)? Well, it's definitely not because I need to be putting more time into practicing. My tournament placings should show that I do that enough. Sooooo it must be because I want to see a better balance within the Minus cast.

Well done. I guess we're now resorting to getting "dirt" on each other.

Not really no. Just simply asking that you practice what your preach.

You irritating bigot!

got 'em.
 

Kboomers1918

Mayor of Capetown, Rhode Island
Minus Backroom
There comes a time when you get good at Smash (crazy, I know). It doesn't happen to everyone, but some of us are just lucky or whatever (or maybe we have in depth experience with most Smash titles over the span of a couple years or idk, somethin' nutty like that). You see, when you're bad at the game you complain for character changes because you don't want to take the time to "adapt" (that big word you threw at me). When you're content with your skill level is in the game, have played Smash for a long enough time where you have a generally good concept of what balance and design for the game is, then you complain for character changes because you care about the game and its balance as a competitive experience. Do you get it? I'm one of the best Minus players (but in reality we're all pretty bad), and I'm the best MK this game is probably going to see for a while. Why would I complain about character imbalance when I play the character that beats a majority of the cast and have shown to be able to take an official tournament (and not just using MK)? Well, it's definitely not because I need to be putting more time into practicing. My tournament placings should show that I do that enough. Sooooo it must be because I want to see a better balance within the Minus cast.

OOH so that's why i suck at brawl minus, thanks!

*studio laughter to hide my depression*
 
They latch on even if your shield is up

This is only true once your shield starts running low. If the Pikmin hit the shield, they'll pass through harmlessly (no shield damage, even). However, if the character's head is poking out and the Pikmin land there, they'll latch on.

The distance that the projectile and Lucas go are too separate to focus the pressure from both the projectile and Lucas in one spot.

You can launch a PK Freeze, shorthop, use PK Fire, release the control stick, and hold B to make PK Fire propel Lucas forwards. Lucas will land at roughly the same spot as the PK Freeze, and it'll add an extra projectile for bonus pressure.
 
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Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I see this misconception a lot, so I'm going to try to explain here carefully.

There comes a time when you get good at Smash (crazy, I know). It doesn't happen to everyone, but some of us are just lucky or whatever (or maybe we have in depth experience with most Smash titles over the span of a couple years or idk, somethin' nutty like that). You see, when you're bad at the game you complain for character changes because you don't want to take the time to "adapt" (that big word you threw at me). When you're content with your skill level is in the game, have played Smash for a long enough time where you have a generally good concept of what balance and design for the game is, then you complain for character changes because you care about the game and its balance as a competitive experience. Do you get it? I'm one of the best Minus players (but in reality we're all pretty bad), and I'm the best MK this game is probably going to see for a while. Why would I complain about character imbalance when I play the character that beats a majority of the cast and have shown to be able to take an official tournament (and not just using MK)? Well, it's definitely not because I need to be putting more time into practicing. My tournament placings should show that I do that enough. Sooooo it must be because I want to see a better balance within the Minus cast.

This has provided me with the level of entertainment and amusement required for a hearty guffaw. You get a gold star.
 
You don't need to be so hostile all the time. Thinking through your ideas beforehand prevents confusion.

From zero to hypocrite in two sentences...

Fox and Pikachu are characters that have consistently being at worst above average characters in every Smash game. It's just how there moves work.

Smash 4 Fox is good for very different reasons than Melee Fox. His blaster and reflector got massively nerfed, and players had to completely re-learn how to play him before he started climbing back up the rankings.

Yes, it helps that Fox and Pikachu are fast characters, and many fast characters seem to be above average, but being fast isn't enough in itself. (Just look at Little Mac!)

I get not preferring high tiers, but banning/changing/nerfing them solely on suspicion isn't always the best option.

Banning is much more extreme than changing or nerfing a character. Obviously you shouldn't ban characters prematurely, but tweaking is perfectly fine and should be encouraged.

You've argued that Meta Knight has flaws, so no balancing is necessary. EpicNonBread has argued that these flaws aren't sufficient. Maybe I'm biased because I hate fighting against Drill Rush spam, but I think ENB made better points.
 

EpicNonBread

Malfunctioning Machinery
Minus Backroom
Playtester
You can launch a PK Freeze, shorthop, use PK Fire, release the control stick, and hold B to make PK Fire propel Lucas forwards. Lucas will land at roughly the same spot as the PK Freeze, and it'll add an extra projectile for bonus pressure.

I might not have the time to lab this tonight, but if this works better than trying to walk and angle the PK Freeze together, you may have made me a very very happy Lucas player today. Also wow, thinking about it now, I feel like that should have been obvious... moving without the analog stick and rather the PK Fire momentum would reduce the travel distance but still get Lucas in there... Thanks for being smarter than me!
 

fantasyDinosaur

only human
Playtester
hi, this is a really long response to Bent 00 about a post he made back on the 19th page. i’ll be putting it all into spoiler mode so that it doesn’t overwhelm the page and take up your screen with lowercase letters.

this part will be about Snake’s speed and that getting buffed.

I am actually in favor of Snake (and 'Dorf) getting sped up. Snake is good, but I don't think he's as fast as he should be considering the speed of other popular characters.


let’s talk about Snake’s speed. i remember talking about this in a draft that got lost somewhere (is there a way to recover drafts?), but Snake is the 31st-33rd fastest dasher in vBrawl measuring simple running speed, in a three way tie with Peach and Wario. this is, of course, without the addition of DACUS in Brawl, which lets Snake cover most of FD thanks to Snake’s ridiculous sliding abilities with the move. so yes, Snake doesn’t run fast, but he has options to go fast, even in vBrawl, which you did say you mained Snake in, so you must already know all of this.


i guess while i’m here, i might as well address your main reasoning behind this buff, coming from you.
[feeling] a bit awkward to [you] because it's as if [you] can't get him to do what [you] want him to do fast enough to keep up with the speedy fighters…


i can agree with you here - Snake does sometimes feel a bit awkward and sluggish and he absolutely can’t keep up with the other fighters even if he (or you) wanted to, but that’s only if you only focus on playing their game of speed. while i think that i play Snake aggressively (and from what i can tell, so do you, at least you wish Snake could be played in your opponent's face, but please correct me if i’m wrong here), Snake’s tools weren’t ever meant for rushing down an opponent and smacking them across the face with a couple uTilts. sure, we all wish he could do that, but he’s not a super slidy Captain Falcon and i don’t believe that he ever deserves to become one. Snake was build as some sort of option coverer, not the bringer of speedy destruction.


another reason Snake doesn’t need his speed buffs (alongside DACUS) would be his ability to cancel dash attack into more options - even when dash attack doesn’t hit. this would be his special cancels and his DACG (dash attack cancel grab, or just a sliding grounded grab), which open up a whole new world of aggression that might just be what you’re looking for in Snake. with these newly added options, Snake can control an area with a hitbox and then reverse his momentum while placing another one right behind him and then shielding to protect himself, all in the fraction of a second. not only could this deal with Snake being too slow, but it also forces the opponent to respect and give Snake space, which means that he gets some free space to lay down traps, covering your second complaint as to why Snake needs speed buffs.

this part will be all about the C4 buffing.

Remind me why you don't like the idea of C4 no longer transferring?


after a long while, i finally figured out why i didn't like the idea of Snake's C4 no longer transferring during gameplay, and it's all thanks to this video here:

yes, the video title is why we should buff more than nerf, but hear me out.


about 6:57 into the video, there's an interview with professional SFV player Infiltration where he speaks about a nerf (in this case, i'm arguing against a buff) to Ryu where Capcom ended up taking away the invincibility on Shoryuken, something that was in SF4. he says, and i quote: "Adjusting the invincibility of the Shoryuken like that seems like a sudden shift in Street Fighter history and I personally don't like it." now, the quote itself is useless in my case of an argument, except for that this is taking a shift away from vBrawl history and looking straight away into other territory (cough cough PM cough), but noting what the narrator (Jerald, i believe) said before the quote is what lead me to understand why i personally was against the buff, even if it was for my character. sure, i benefit from this buff (as a snake player), but i dislike it because it makes the game less exciting.


believe it or not, i am talking about making a game exciting on the forums to the people who play BRAWL MINUS, the craziest game to ever take on brawl modding, but there's always a point where we have to consider that we've stepped over the line. sure, it
...only serves as an annoyance -- something else to keep track of -- in 1v1 play...
, but that's a good annoyance and forces me to adapt and to use other options instead of, well, the C4. this not only keeps the game fresher for viewers that want to watch the game grow and share it with others, but it also is something that can create a balanced character. now, i know nothing about character creation, but i believe that when you create a character, there’s always got to be a balance between the positives and the negatives of said character, and i think that Snake’s C4 should stay the way it is because of this idea.


as i said before, Snake doesn’t need a C4 buff is because he’s already got other options, or positives. of course, you can imagine the stupidity that is his uTilt, but let’s start off with his neutral b, or his grenade. it has a notably good hitbox that sends people out and away, unlike how it did in brawl. it’s small and can be camouflaged by stages (which makes it hard to see) but extremely easy to hit by other characters (also, keep in mind that Snake can't hit his own grenades unless he sets them off using either a mine, his C4, another grenade, or a motion sensor bomb) which can be useful for getting him out of tough situations. both an amazing defensive tool and offensive walling tool that can kill you and your opponent off the side at 90 if it wants to. another option that Snake has is (in this case) his dash attack cancelling, which can happen after the hitbox comes out all the way until the end of the move (even when Snake does his little rolling animation). this can be cancelled into any of Snake's specials along with b-reverses, he can (of course) DACUS, but as an added bonus, he can cancel into grab when he feels like it too. basically, a stupid fast attack that is extremely safe to throw out in neutral and can make or break a situation. these are just two options that Snake has in brawl minus, and i know that you can already think of another. adding on a stupidly good C4 into the mix just gives him another one to throw onto the pile. looking at the top characters, we list off about three or four moves that get them onto that list every time, but there's always moves that aren't as good as these moves on purpose, like how a person would rather go for pillaring with falco instead of using moves like his fAir and uSmash to rack on damage, as those moves are overshadowed by the rest of his kit. it's always important to know that a character has some really good options, as to which Snake has, but when all of his options become amazing then it just becomes a lame "guess which way you're gonna die?" slaughter fest.


now, let's examine where Snake would use this buff. of course, it becomes about a million times more useful in teams, as you don't have to worry about the damn thing switching every time someone feels like sliding into each other's DMs, but it also becomes way more useful due to Omnigaying because the sticky never switches (or does it? you devs never explained what you meant by it doesn't stick back onto Snake, whether it just doesn't stick back onto him or simply stays on said person forever until it explodes) making Snake & friends only have to worry about Faux Super Armor, which comes from port priority. in other words, this buff is stupid good in teams, BUT it's already been used by top players during the brawl days (even though it still has a chance of failing, bleh). in singles, snake also gets the buff of never having to worry about the C4 transferring back to him, which makes it nice and simple to (theoretically) go in, get a grab, and get a k.o.. the hardest part (like normal gameplay) is actually getting the stick in the first place, which is easier said than done in all cases due to the mix ups required for allowing time to place the sticky onto your opponent without being found open.


before i move on, i ended up talking to EpicNonBread over discord about how he felt about the buff. while we both don't agree with Snake receiving this buff, we disagree for different reasons. his reasons go something like this.


1.) vBrawl designed Snake as a very mentality heavy character. He has to think of all of his traps and set ups a few steps ahead. Not to mention he requires strict mental game play for his dthrow tech chasing.​


yes, Snake is a technical character, and i (you, the reader) know that you understand that as much as ENB and i do, along with the viewers. i know this dwells in your (specifically you, Bent) "more complicated/technical gameplay to earn greater rewards is better game design" area, but when a character is designed in a way so that you have to be complicated in order to play him, you can't really argue against the denial of a buff when a character is based of off the concept that you’re trying to use to base a counter-argument for. this is especially true for Snake’s dThrow chasing and can be vital for getting a kill, even with uThrow becoming a kill option in minus.


2.) He still has the trap game vBrawl gave him, Minus just filled it with a lot more projectile/hitbox spam. To keep him in the same theme of a very mental-game requiring character, having the Snake to purposely remember who has the c4 for him to detonate would fit the character very well.​


i actually don’t have much to say for this point except for that i agree with it, especially with the hitbox spam. keeping Snake’s C4 the way it originally was in vBrawl does reflect the way that Snake was designed, but it also forces the player to figure out when and where to use said item/object, not just sort of toss it out and forget about it and then not have to worry about it later. the buff that the devs are proposing is entirely against the character that he was in vBrawl. however, if the devs wanted to stay loyal to Snake in his original way he played in vBrawl, then they may not have even considered the C4 buff or have even given him the cancels on his other moves like dash attack, which supports a more aggressive style of play.


3.) From a gameplay stance, forcing Snake to remember who has the c4 is an indirect nerf AND a buff. Having to remember who has the c4 is more mentally taxing on the Snake player, but at the same time it allows him to have a safer and faster detonation recovery if he has the c4 on himself. The only change I would like him to have if to be given PM's c4 trigger cancel should the Snake player accidentally hit the trigger.​


i agree with the with the idea of keeping Snake’s C4 as a switching explosion box because it requires the user to be creative and slick with timing and placement.

keeping the C4 with an absurdly large range and the ability to stick it on opponents whenever he feels like it (and if they let him do it) for the slight nerf of letting it stick back and forth between characters is a very very well designed tool for sneaky gameplay.

edit: also,
We're Brawl Minus, not Stronger PM.

anyways, these are the points i could come up with (along with the help from ENB with points). sorry for taking so long to respond. have a good day, to anyone reading this.
 
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Kboomers1918

Mayor of Capetown, Rhode Island
Minus Backroom
Snake’s tools weren’t ever meant for rushing down an opponent and smacking them across the face with a couple uTilts. sure, we all wish he could do that

I don't

studio laughter + Seinfeld theme
 

EpicNonBread

Malfunctioning Machinery
Minus Backroom
Playtester
The only change I would like him to have if to be given PM's c4 trigger cancel should the Snake player accidentally hit the trigger.

Is this me about to quote a quote of myself? I don't know... whatever. Anyway,

I'd like to rephrase what I said here (that is my exact wording though, but on second glace I don't like what I said to Fantasy).

Snake should not be given PM's c4 trigger cancel for the sake for saving the Snake, should they accidentally misinput. The actual reason I think the feature should be implemented would be to give Snake even more mind game potential to use to scare his opponent. Currently, both Snake and the opponent need to keep track of who is c4'd. If Snake was able to "psych-out" his opponent with a trigger cancel, it would allow him to have more control over their opponent's focus. (not to mention it would be hilariously smart if Snake could bluff and trigger cancel while having the c4 on himself).
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
fantasyDinosaur: Just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

I don't recall saying Snake's run / dash / etc. in particular need to be sped up.
I said that Snake needs some general speeding up IIRC, but to be specific, what I'd like to see is less endlag on certain attacks. Some of them feel clunky to me.

As for C4 no longer transferring, it's already Approved.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
It gives me a headache when people protest perfectly good plans for Minus.

Don't you know how hard it is to get Buffs around here?

Why don't you go think of some new things to Buff, rather than try to shoot down existing ideas for Buffs?

Don't reply to this, I'm just venting here.
 
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Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
This request is really urgent so I have to respond right away
:random:Bent's Mood: We will make sure to buff Bent's mood to grant the request of making him happy. Bent works hard and is passionate about Minus so he deserves a good mood.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Har har. If you want to Buff my mood, keep your plans to stop Snake's C4 from transferring on contact, and give him a detonator fakeout.

Two new taunts would be wonderful as well. :)

Gonna cross-post this relevant bit from the Minus discord:
Bent 00 said:
You know why I don't want Snake's C4 to transfer between players? The same reason I play with Items off. It adds randomness to the game. The only random things I want in Minus are G&W's Judge, Peach's Turnip/Item Pull, Link's Deku Nuts, both Links' arrows, Dedede's Waddle/Gordo Toss, Olimar's Pikmin, and Luigi's Green Missile Misfire (if that's even random in Minus, I forget). And maybe something random for Waluigi in the future.

That little block of C4 is hard to see, which makes it hard to keep track of while trying to keep all of Snake's other traps in mind. It's just too much, when it's completely unnecessary, a solvable problem. Snake needs some small Buffs, let him have this and the detonator fakeout from Project M.

As for making him faster, I never said his dash / run / etc. specifically should be sped up. I should have been more specific. What actually makes him feel sluggish to me is the endlag on some of his moves, I think. Snake gets overwhelmed by speedy, in-your-face fighters too easily, and I think making his "flow" from move to move faster would help him a lot. Does that make sense?

Everybody knows the change that would "Buff my mood" the most, but... Hah... Just wait for my tweaked 'Dorf.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
With Snake's C4 buffs/rework, he would not need the features requested due to the added power of the C4.
Are you saying that everything highlighted in red below is REJECTED?

---
Give Snake more control over when placed C4 explodes, by making it not detonate until Special is released after being primed. [Thor]
Bent 00: "If we go this route, I would suggest that Held Down-Special lock Snake into a pre-trigger state of his Down-Special animation, not proceeding with the C4 explosion and the rest of the animation until Special is released. This state could Cancel into anything except Specials, to opt out of the detonation."
---
I Request that we adapt a few things from Project M Snake's C4: Holding Down-Special results in a fake-out, and C4 does not fall off stuck opponents or transfer between fighters on contact. Perhaps it should also not self-detonate after a set time, and instead, remain in place until it is detonated, or vanish when Snake is K.O.ed. [Bent 00]
---

The bit highlighted in yellow is something I suspect is APPROVED along with what is highlighted in green... Please confirm?

All you said in the Change Log Preview was "C4: Never stickies back on Snake." Please be more specific.

Snake requests were added since that post so I would be careful with what you move to Rejected.
No Snake Requests have been REJECTED yet. Two Snake Requests have been marked as IGNORED:
---
Snake's Down-Throw could be like a weak bit of Sleep, instead of just putting foes into Prone status. Maybe make them Sleep last as long as vBrawl Jigg's Sing. [Survivian]
---
Snake needs some spice to be added to his game. Preferably salt. [Survivian]
---
If there are any Requests that have been marked incorrectly, please let me know.

---

Left these in PENDING...

General
Giving every fighter the ability to Crawl would be fun. [Mariosonicman1]
EpicNonBread: "I can see the want for some kind of short momentum change option for slow characters."
Pin Clock: "The only way we would want do this is not for the slow movement option, but for Universal CrawlDashing. There are some instances when not moving them is wise, though."
Sounds like this should be moved to UNDER CONSIDERATION, but I'm not certain...

Fighter: Bowser
RR hitboxes (already discussed among BR). [Ludacario]
Ledge jump (already discussed among BR). [Ludacario]
These were discussed in the Discord.
"Already discussed among BR / in the Discord" doesn't tell me much about these two Requests.
What are the details? Were they Accepted, Rejected, or what?
If no one is going to fill me in on what's going on with these, I'm just going to remove them from the Community Request List entirely.
I tried searching for these Requests in the Minus Discords, but I don't have time to sift through old chat logs.
If someone wants a Request documented in here, kindly post it in its entirety with full details.
Please don't tell me "We discussed it in the Discord, go look it up there."

Fighter: Donkey Kong
D.K.'s Up-B's HitBoxes should pull in the opponent much more to guarantee the final hit. [EpicNonBread]
In Melee and Project M, Grounded Up-B is a good OOS "get off me" option, with the start-up hit dealing significant KnockBack, but not strong enough KnockBack to be a kill move. Smash 4 did something different with it in that there is no start-up HitBox to swat characters away, but rather they are hit with the entire move and then the final HitBox pushes back with moderate KnockBack. The current Grounded Up-B of Minus lacks the high KnockBack start up hitbox as well, but the rest of the move can be SDI'd out of, Shielded, and then punished, making the OOS "get off me" option no longer safe and inconsistent.
MelonKeepR: "I'd like to add that in Smash 64, DK's Up-b can be used as a combo breaker. That'd be pretty cool to see in Minus."
Pin Clock: "Making the initial hit function as a combo breaker would be a much bigger Buff for the Kong and sounds fun to do."
EpicNonBread: "I don't think this is the right way to rework this move. Rather than add a combo-breaking HitBox on start-up, it would be more of a Buff to make the individual hits harder to SDI. This would make Spinning Kong an OoS option that presents more follow-ups for D.K. after the last hit."
I want the Devs to see EpicNonBread's remark before I move this, and ask for clarification: Are you Rejecting E.N.B.'s Request while Approving MelonKeepR's alternative, making the first hit of Spinning Kong a combo-breaker? Or are you going to take E.N.B.'s advice after all, making the multiple hits harder to SDI, better at drawing foes in, and better at linking into the final hit?

---

The Community Request List has been updated to the point of Pin's last batch of Dev Responses. I still need to add everything posted since then, plus the Requests from AGentleStar's huge list. I'll get to it when I have time -- taking off for tonight.

---

EpicNonBread and player_03: I see you two made several posts about tweaking how Gliding is triggered in Minus.
Could you please make things easier for me by consolidating your ideas regarding Gliding into one or two concise Requests? Thanks.
 
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Thor

Well-Known Member
Dude ENB is the best MK player here. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the idea that MK is broken. I value ENB's opinion on MK more than I value anyone else's.

I remember when I was basically the only MK :^)

Also dang I wish I could face all these people that have crept up... yay for school having no Wi-Fi.

MK feels way more awkward to me than he used to, and I miss his old design, but he is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally good.

Please do not make Snake run faster. Snake walking slightly faster is an interesting idea. Some moves having less endlag might be okay, but he's already a solid character. Yes he struggles in some matchups, but he can also just KO you outright by getting you airborne and littering the battlefield with explosives so that it can be nigh-impossible to land [not to mention his laggy-but-very-strong aerials].

If you could somehow disable walljump out of Cypher I'm sure BC would love you forever [I'm also guessing that's already been brought up multiple times, but while I'm here, I do see a remarkably bruise-free recently-deceased equester...]
 

EpicNonBread

Malfunctioning Machinery
Minus Backroom
Playtester
Don't reply to this, I'm just venting here.

Whatever I see floating in this thread is free game.

It gives me a headache when people protest perfectly good plans for Minus.

Don't you know how hard it is to get Buffs around here?

Why don't you go think of some new things to Buff, rather than try to shoot down existing ideas for Buffs?

Yeah, tell 'em! Shame the people who want to debate character design for the sake of a fun and balanced game.

You know why I don't want Snake's C4 to transfer between players? The same reason I play with Items off. It adds randomness to the game.

You don't know what random means.

That little block of C4 is hard to see, which makes it hard to keep track of while trying to keep all of Snake's other traps in mind.

Sound cues, also a trained eye in a lot of cases will be able to spot it visually. Also because it isn't a random mechanic, you are always able to keep track of it. Your inability to is on you.

Snake needs some small Buffs, let him have this and the detonator fakeout from Project M.

I think this is where the main issue is. Sure Snake can have some "small" buffs, but guaranteed c4's is a much bigger buff than you're making it out to be. For why he doesn't need this buff, please refer to Fantasy's well written essay.
(also no one is arguing the c4 trigger bluff and I'm pretty sure everyone wants it.)

Snake gets overwhelmed by speedy, in-your-face fighters too easily...

Snake is a bait and trap heavy defensive character with the power of an aggressive character. Play him as intended.

...and I think making his "flow" from move to move faster would help him a lot. Does that make sense?

please refer to Fantasy's well written essay.

Luigi's Green Missile Misfire (if that's even random in Minus, I forget)

Do you even play this game?
 

AGentleStar

Video Editor
You've argued that Meta Knight has flaws, so no balancing is necessary. EpicNonBread has argued that these flaws aren't sufficient. Maybe I'm biased because I hate fighting against Drill Rush spam, but I think ENB made better points.
You misunderstand. I'm fine with balancing Meta Knight. He probably needs it. Plus, the changes made so far the Pin Clock has shown off are perfectly fine in my book. I also get that people think it's cool to shit on my opinions, take my ideas out of context or call me expletives. I get it. Go ahead. I don't mind. I know myself well enough that I'm not malicious. I have my reasons for thinking the way I do and if no one wants to or is able to understand my way of thinking, that's fine. I gotta go, though. I need to work on the next video for my channel. :nesmk:
 

EpicNonBread

Malfunctioning Machinery
Minus Backroom
Playtester
I remember when I was basically the only MK :^)

Also dang I wish I could face all these people that have crept up... yay for school having no Wi-Fi.

MK feels way more awkward to me than he used to, and I miss his old design, but he is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally good.

I wish us new kids were around to go against the older-era titans of this game like you, Gold, Glyph, Darx, etc. Dumb too, because it seems like the common separating factor is internet issues or lack of equipment. This kind of thing makes me wish Minus was big enough to warrant some kind of annual IRL meet up for the whole community.

I also get that people think it's cool to shit on my opinions, take my ideas out of context or call me expletives. I get it. Go ahead. I don't mind. I know myself well enough that I'm not malicious. I have my reasons for thinking the way I do and if no one wants to or is able to understand my way of thinking, that's fine. I gotta go, though. I need to work on the next video for my channel.

what?
 
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