AGentleStar
Video Editor
...?
Community Request Thread for the next version after 4.0BC
- Thread starter Bent 00
- Start date
No one is here because "it's cool to shit on your opinions, take your ideas out of... etc.". We're discussing character design concepts and change proposals. You're taking criticism of your ideas too personally and aren't staying open minded when people respond with opposing views. Stop turning it into something where people are personally going out of their way to attack you.
you wanna talk buffs? then let's talk buffs. more specifically, let's talk about that one move that i don't think any Snake player uses - dTilt, or as i like to call it, Snake's spin kick.
this move is weak. it may have nice range and a low sweeping hitbox, but it isn't safe on shield (especially perfect shield) and is most likely never going to kill your opponent.
here's a video with what i have in mind:
my suggestion with this move is to revert it to how it was back during this video's time: 2013. i don't know what version this actually is, but i think having Snake with a combo kill confirm on his dTilt instead of a get-off me move that fails at doing that would better suit him for callouts and reads, and would reward him with getting stocks instead of forcing a edgeguard situation.
this should buff Snake and deal with the trouble of dTilt being a bad move, unless it receives buffs in a different manner.
also, i didn't plan on making you feel like i was shooting down buffs. i just wanted to argue out my side of the argument and say that i don't agree with the direction that the devs are taking the game. sorry for making you feel bad enough to the point where you vented on the forums.
i'm also curious with what you mean here. what moves do you feel like deserve less endlag? i would suggest certain moves like Snake's final hit of jab, but only a few frames on other moves like uTilt and dTilt (like 1-2 frames).
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Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Gee, do you have to be so snarky? Can't a guy vent a little (in a spoiler!) without getting picked apart?
You haven't been on these forums as long as I have, so maybe you don't know the frustration of trying to get Buffs Approved, only to have your suggestions shot down time after time. Before this Community Request List came along, it felt nearly impossible (to me, at least) for non-Devs to get any significant changes made to Minus. To have a good Request get Approved, only to have a couple of guys start complaining about it immediately, without even trying it out in Minus... That just stifles the growth of the game, IMO. At least give this a chance, since the Request has gotten this far.
The way I see it is that Snake needs Buffs, and those are so hard to get Approved in Minus, we should take what we can get. If you manage to convince the Devs to not stop C4 from transferring on contact, Snake might not get any Buffs at all. Also, if this Buff was good enough to include in Project M, then I think it's more than good enough to include in Minus. It's not going to be OP, because C4 KBG is getting Nerfed to compensate for it no longer shifting around.
I call Snake's C4 switching "random" because, while it may not technically be random, it feels that way when you're exchanging blows after you've stuck someone. Will the C4 transfer, or won't it? IIRC, there's a delay on when the C4 can switch -- it won't switch with every single consecutive contact, but it's only short time before it can transfer again. So, while it may be possible to know when a C4 switch will happen, in the heat of a fight it is practically too "random" to control consistently. Snake is all about setting traps for his opponents, and controlling their movement, so his C4 should allow him to be precise, instead of having to hope chance decides the C4 is stuck to Snake's target when he needs it to be, and not stuck to himself.
That's how I do play Snake. My problem with him in Minus is how easily he gets overwhelmed by the fast, aggressive characters. Snake's moves are too slow to keep up with their barrage of rapid-fire attacks. Snake's focus is to set up traps, but he should be able to handle Close Quarters Combat too, rather than having to depend on his traps, and get blown out when fast fighters weave through them with ease, or don't give Snake the time to set them up in the first place.
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player_03
P3
I can't speak for ENB, but here's my favorite of the ideas we came up with.
Request: require a half-circle motion to start a glide with the control stick. (Currently, you can start a glide by moving the control stick directly side-to-side, making it easy to do by accident.)
Darxmarx
The Learning Star Warrior
I apologize for my sins
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
One more point I'd like to make about Snake's C4 transferring on-contact:
Look at this scenario from a Risk VS Reward standpoint.
Is it better to plant the C4 on the stage, where it will not transfer?
Or try to stick a moving opponent, where it will transfer, and likely backfire on you?
Planting it on the stage will always be the safer, more preferable option. I think one of the main reasons the Project M Devs made C4 no longer transfer on contact was because they felt Snake players deserve a more reliable reward if they can manage to actually stick an opponent (which is no easy task). Why risk sticking your foes if this move is likely to backfire on you later? Snake has to put himself at risk enough just by attempting to stick C4 on opponents; if he misses, he's open for punishment, and he probably has his C4 in a less-than-ideal position now.
Back when I mained Snake in vBrawl, because attempting to stick foes was so unlikely to pay off, I avoided trying it unless I thought it extremely safe to attempt, and the target had high damage. It was much more reliable for Snake to use C4 as a second stage hazard (#1 being the Claymore) at low percent, and switch to keeping it on Snake's person at higher percents, in case he needed to C4 Jump. This remains the case in Minus.
I think it is good game design to make your various options all appealing in some way, enough so that you should be willing to think of them all as at least "worth considering" in most common situations. Making C4 no longer transfer on contact makes going for sticks a much more valid and desirable strategy, and frees up the Snake player to focus on more important things than what amounts to a nonessential mini-game.
Also, stopping C4 from transferring on contact is not necessarily bad for strategy or mindgames. If you get stuck with transferable C4, what's the first thing you're going to want to do? Stick it back on Snake, right? That's predictable and uninteresting if you ask me. If we take that decision out of the stuck player's hands, then his or her options become...
- Try to predict when Snake will detonate the C4
- Stay on the ground and Shield / Spot Dodge / Roll the explosion
- Air Dodge the explosion
- Try to stay close to Snake and catch him in the explosion
Sounds more interesting than "rush Snake". Obviously, all of the above strategies are still valid with transferable C4, but they take the backseat most of the time because it's more appealing to immediately turn Snake's own weapon against him if possible.
My point here is that transferable C4 sticks are not consistently rewarding enough to justify...
A.) The risk Snake must take to attempt them, and
B.) The opportunity cost Snake pays by choosing not to use C4 as a more reliable Stage Hazard.
Honestly, I don't have any super-specific ideas in mind right now. I just want Snake's CQC to be more effective against speedy, nimble rushers. I've neglected playing Snake much in Minus lately, in favor of playing Falcon, 'Dorf, and Zelda more -- largely because Falcon and 'Dorf can actually handle getting rushed, while Zelda can at least work around it better than Snake.
Look at this scenario from a Risk VS Reward standpoint.
Is it better to plant the C4 on the stage, where it will not transfer?
Or try to stick a moving opponent, where it will transfer, and likely backfire on you?
Planting it on the stage will always be the safer, more preferable option. I think one of the main reasons the Project M Devs made C4 no longer transfer on contact was because they felt Snake players deserve a more reliable reward if they can manage to actually stick an opponent (which is no easy task). Why risk sticking your foes if this move is likely to backfire on you later? Snake has to put himself at risk enough just by attempting to stick C4 on opponents; if he misses, he's open for punishment, and he probably has his C4 in a less-than-ideal position now.
Back when I mained Snake in vBrawl, because attempting to stick foes was so unlikely to pay off, I avoided trying it unless I thought it extremely safe to attempt, and the target had high damage. It was much more reliable for Snake to use C4 as a second stage hazard (#1 being the Claymore) at low percent, and switch to keeping it on Snake's person at higher percents, in case he needed to C4 Jump. This remains the case in Minus.
I think it is good game design to make your various options all appealing in some way, enough so that you should be willing to think of them all as at least "worth considering" in most common situations. Making C4 no longer transfer on contact makes going for sticks a much more valid and desirable strategy, and frees up the Snake player to focus on more important things than what amounts to a nonessential mini-game.
Also, stopping C4 from transferring on contact is not necessarily bad for strategy or mindgames. If you get stuck with transferable C4, what's the first thing you're going to want to do? Stick it back on Snake, right? That's predictable and uninteresting if you ask me. If we take that decision out of the stuck player's hands, then his or her options become...
- Try to predict when Snake will detonate the C4
- Stay on the ground and Shield / Spot Dodge / Roll the explosion
- Air Dodge the explosion
- Try to stay close to Snake and catch him in the explosion
Sounds more interesting than "rush Snake". Obviously, all of the above strategies are still valid with transferable C4, but they take the backseat most of the time because it's more appealing to immediately turn Snake's own weapon against him if possible.
My point here is that transferable C4 sticks are not consistently rewarding enough to justify...
A.) The risk Snake must take to attempt them, and
B.) The opportunity cost Snake pays by choosing not to use C4 as a more reliable Stage Hazard.
Now that's more like it.
Don't worry about it, you and ENB are perfectly entitled to post your opinions, whatever they may be. Don't mind me -- I'm just excited at the prospect of a favorite, rarely-Buffed fighter finally getting some positive attention. As sad as it may make me, feel free to argue against anything you want -- but do keep in mind that if we're too picky about Buffs for a given character, that fighter may end up not getting anything at all. Wouldn't that be boring, for a final release? To leave a "pretty good" character alone, when he/she/it could be raised up enough to be able to truly compete on the same level as the Top Tiers? Doesn't sound like a very Minus-y way to go, IMO. I want to see Minus Break Limits, not Play It Safe.
Pretty much what you just said there. Minor Buffs like those to improve the flow of Snake's Close Quarters Combat.
Honestly, I don't have any super-specific ideas in mind right now. I just want Snake's CQC to be more effective against speedy, nimble rushers. I've neglected playing Snake much in Minus lately, in favor of playing Falcon, 'Dorf, and Zelda more -- largely because Falcon and 'Dorf can actually handle getting rushed, while Zelda can at least work around it better than Snake.
Personally, I prefer the
I apologize for my sins
'Dorf Train.
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Yes. Your own thread's purpose is for compiling and discussing proposed character changes. Not for you to *sigh* and get emotional just because people are debating against your views.
Your initial venting response was also very disrespectful to the amount of work Fantasy put into his post, so I encourage you to keep the unnecessary posting out of here and instead of complaining about people having different views, why don't you enjoy the discussion that this amazing thread is generating for the sake of helping the dev team make appropriate design changes with community feedback?
I mean, yes...I do. Just because I'm new to these forums, doesn't mean I have not participated in discussion related to Smash design and have had concepts shot down before. This isn't any new stuff to me, despite what the rough difference of 1,000 forums posts between use would say.
audio cueeeeeeees
I can't confirm at the moment of typing this, but have you seen the frame speed of how fast grenade is pulled? Snake does not struggle against fast characters as much as you say. I'm more inclined to believe that you are forcing a play style that has been proved to be ineffective since vBrawl's meta.
Get ready for the most mind blowing Snake tech you've ever heard in your life.
If Snake has himself stickied with c4, grab (c4 transfers at this point) > up throw > down b is a guaranteed kill at the appropriate percent.
Stop acting like Snake having the c4 on himself is a destined, doomed situation for Snake. This is actually how you appropriately perform up throw to c4 without PM's non-transfer mechanic. This will lead very well into my next point...
Now having knowledge that Snake can up throw > down b if the c4 is on him, the opponent has ability to choose how the c4 will interact the fight, do they transfer it back to Snake for the potential grab confirm kill, or do the risk being hit into the air by a stray move or explosive and then being detonated? I think you are not fully analyzing the situation between the Snake and opponent as well as you should be, which slightly voids your entire point here. Giving the opponent the incentive to purposely rush down Snake also gives Snake the ability to potentially force the opponent into positioning that he wants. Hypothetical, but that is dependent on the player's preference whether they want the c4 stuck to them for the grab confirm kill, or if they want it on the opponent for a stray kill/potentially guaranteed damage.
Snake's c4 transformed into more of a stage control mechanism and a recovery tool rather than an offensive tool as vBrawl's Snake meta evolved. There is nothing wrong with this. You are correct that Project M gave Snake the non-transfer as an easier means of getting kills.
Also just to touch up on this one again real quick, this is wrong. Giving a character options that are all equally good for all situations makes an unbalanced character. Worse or more situational moves are a vital part to kits, as they become a key part of how a character is balanced. Options can be appealing. I personally find it very appealing to gimp Bowser with Snake's boxes because I like listening to Ludacario cry. But appealing is very different from efficiency.
ALSO, please refer again, to the amazing up throw > down b Snake gains when he is c4'd himself.
Now that's more like it.
Agreed. This is a decent buff suggestion but I can see it creating some issues on set knockback. If this were to be implemented, it should only be doable at a very niche percent range.
Assuming that the dev team is good at their job, this won't happen. We are already all in favor of the trigger bluff mechanic being added, and Fantasy's recent topic of reworking dtilt also seems to raise some attention from what seems to be the only three Snake players.
There is no definite tier list as of right now and people's opinions on characters are jumping left and right. Stop making Snake sound as if he is at some massive deficit in this meta.
I apologize for my sins
Stop teasing me.
Also yes, palyer_3's recap is pretty accurate.
I think Ludacario's suggestion is worth keeping in mind. That if it's possible, the analog stick to glide feature should be reworked to be toggleable when setting controls to a name.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
While I still disagree with you, I appreciate the informative post, EpicNonBread. You know your stuff.
That said, enough of the transferable C4 argument. I think we've all said our piece. It's up to the Devs from here.
That said, enough of the transferable C4 argument. I think we've all said our piece. It's up to the Devs from here.
All this arguing about snake buffs, but we're forgetting the real buff.....
Making Lavaville legal
Making Lavaville legal
Thor
Well-Known Member
I'd hardly call myself a titan, but I was no slouch at the game and could do cool combos and stuff. Also shoutouts to winning one of the Wi-Fi tournaments :^)
Also your post lengths rival my own [at least, I've made posts of that, but never thought to spoiler them so they wouldn't take up an entire page LOL].
AGentleStar
Video Editor
I apologize for my sins
Personally, I prefer the 'Dorf Train.
That would be great! Only problem is not enough people are willing to take competitive minus to the next level. I try showing it off at clubs at different universities, cons and what-not, but I don't know exactly what to do next to get people hooked. I end up just busting out Project M/Melee because people are more familiar with it.
Only other problem i can think of with a Dorf Train is it would be difficult to put 100s of basement dwellers in one room together. Fights might start. .....Actually, on second thought, that's not such a bad idea. I'd love to punch ENB in the face.
Lol. No truer words have been said.
MelonKeepR
Well-Known Member
100s? That's optimistic.
We maaaaaaybe have that many people playing the game in just the US alone? Definitely wouldn't expect 'em all to be able to join in one place together, but the dream is still alive.
Kymaera K1ng
A PMCC player
[QUOTE="Pin Clock, post: 22394, member: 48]
"[Jump canceling Pika's Quick attack] could be a little cool, but it may also be super broken, so for now: a cautionary no.[/QUOTE]
Has the Dev team put any more thought into this since you said it? I think it would be really cool, so I've been hoping there's still a chance.
On the topic of Pikachu, can we get a tap/hold variant for his back air? I was thinking that the hold version would be the "Pikacopter" and the tap version would be preferably A) his 64/PM back air -OR- his vBrawl back air. His 64 variant is better for his kit, and there's no reason not to do it, but the vBrawl version would be acceptable as well.
"[Jump canceling Pika's Quick attack] could be a little cool, but it may also be super broken, so for now: a cautionary no.[/QUOTE]
Has the Dev team put any more thought into this since you said it? I think it would be really cool, so I've been hoping there's still a chance.
On the topic of Pikachu, can we get a tap/hold variant for his back air? I was thinking that the hold version would be the "Pikacopter" and the tap version would be preferably A) his 64/PM back air -OR- his vBrawl back air. His 64 variant is better for his kit, and there's no reason not to do it, but the vBrawl version would be acceptable as well.
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MelonKeepR
Well-Known Member
Y'missed a square bracket.
AGentleStar
Video Editor
I had to edit the original post because it forgot a bracket.
If you tap back on the C-stick (back aerial) a second time after the first pikacopter, it cancels into a normal bair that you can control freely in the air. It also cancels into itself so you can do stuff like this.
are we just gonna ignore this?
Young Boy Bread
Potential at its finest
So like 2 things.
1. I posted on this thread earlier giving a suggestion for an aesthetic quality of the game and had it shot down by Bent00 for a reason I think was silly. So I was wondering, does Bent have power over this thread at all? I feel like since he shot down my suggestion it hasn't been responded to or glanced at by an actual dev or anyone else. I just want to know how soon I can expect a response from someone who has influence over the games development. I appreciate Bent's input but I also want to hear the opinion of someone like Pin on the feasibility of my suggestion.
TLR Mama Pin love me and respond to my other post
2. Here are a few more aesthetic (or what I like to call, a touch of minus) suggestions to add to Minus.
- Maybe at the results screen when the player can check all their stats that don't really matter too much (i.e. swim time, hit percentage, flight distance) you can change these to more "minus-esque" stats. Things like "number of times taunted", "number of FREAKIN METEOR CANCELS", and "time spent camping ledge". You could even add extra flair to certain characters specifically like Ice Climbers could have a stat that says "how many times nana died =[ " or Fox could have "number of blips" and take count of the amount of times you shined during the game, or Peach could have one keep track of how many times you plucked a turnip and it could say "number of dishes served". I feel theres a lot of room for creativity and minus-esque ideas to flow here and I'd love to see what you crazy devs come up with.
- When you go to change your controls you can select a random name to apply your controls to. I think as a little nod to the community or important Minus figureheads you should change what random names have a chance of appearing. Make it possible for a person to randomly get the tag "Pin", "Husky", "Luda", "Bent", or even the coveted "BREAD" or "THICC" tags. I think that would be a fun little easter egg for minus fans or people who have been around its development a lot. Really makes people feel special and I think is a cute little addition.
- The CPU difficulty scales have descriptions for them. Level 1 is Puny, Level 9 is Nasty, yadda, yadda. Maybe add in new "minus-esque" descriptions to those as another slight little touch. Maybe Level 1 can be called "Shrimp" and Level 8 can be called "Kahuna". Heck maybe even break the limits and the scales and just make Level 9 say "666!!" to describe the intense level of skill and destruction that comes with the max level CPU (although Level 9's are a little lacking in difficulty lol but hey maybe you can even just edit the AI and make that specific level similar to the AI in Cruel Brawl mode or something)
These are all I could think of on the spot. I feel I'm forgetting a few good ones so I apologize for that. I also am not sure how realistic all of these ideas are but I really do think these little touches will give a nice "quality of minus" vibe to the game and everyone appreciates little aesthetic touches like that in a game. I really hope a dev or someone of influence reads this post and lets me know their thoughts and the feasibility of my suggestions. Thanks for reading guys and gals.
1. I posted on this thread earlier giving a suggestion for an aesthetic quality of the game and had it shot down by Bent00 for a reason I think was silly. So I was wondering, does Bent have power over this thread at all? I feel like since he shot down my suggestion it hasn't been responded to or glanced at by an actual dev or anyone else. I just want to know how soon I can expect a response from someone who has influence over the games development. I appreciate Bent's input but I also want to hear the opinion of someone like Pin on the feasibility of my suggestion.
TL
R Mama Pin love me and respond to my other post2. Here are a few more aesthetic (or what I like to call, a touch of minus) suggestions to add to Minus.
- Maybe at the results screen when the player can check all their stats that don't really matter too much (i.e. swim time, hit percentage, flight distance) you can change these to more "minus-esque" stats. Things like "number of times taunted", "number of FREAKIN METEOR CANCELS", and "time spent camping ledge". You could even add extra flair to certain characters specifically like Ice Climbers could have a stat that says "how many times nana died =[ " or Fox could have "number of blips" and take count of the amount of times you shined during the game, or Peach could have one keep track of how many times you plucked a turnip and it could say "number of dishes served". I feel theres a lot of room for creativity and minus-esque ideas to flow here and I'd love to see what you crazy devs come up with.
- When you go to change your controls you can select a random name to apply your controls to. I think as a little nod to the community or important Minus figureheads you should change what random names have a chance of appearing. Make it possible for a person to randomly get the tag "Pin", "Husky", "Luda", "Bent", or even the coveted "BREAD" or "THICC" tags. I think that would be a fun little easter egg for minus fans or people who have been around its development a lot. Really makes people feel special and I think is a cute little addition.
- The CPU difficulty scales have descriptions for them. Level 1 is Puny, Level 9 is Nasty, yadda, yadda. Maybe add in new "minus-esque" descriptions to those as another slight little touch. Maybe Level 1 can be called "Shrimp" and Level 8 can be called "Kahuna". Heck maybe even break the limits and the scales and just make Level 9 say "666!!" to describe the intense level of skill and destruction that comes with the max level CPU (although Level 9's are a little lacking in difficulty lol but hey maybe you can even just edit the AI and make that specific level similar to the AI in Cruel Brawl mode or something)
These are all I could think of on the spot. I feel I'm forgetting a few good ones so I apologize for that. I also am not sure how realistic all of these ideas are but I really do think these little touches will give a nice "quality of minus" vibe to the game and everyone appreciates little aesthetic touches like that in a game. I really hope a dev or someone of influence reads this post and lets me know their thoughts and the feasibility of my suggestions. Thanks for reading guys and gals.
player_03
P3
I went and found the link this time, but in the future, please try to link to posts yourself. Or at least post a reminder of what you were talking about.
(For anyone else reading: his suggestion was to replace Brawl's opening cutscene with Minus-themed animations.)
Bent was right: animations are a lot of work. That animation was created by a team of professional animators working full-time, and making another similar-quality animation would cost thousands of dollars, minimum.
However, it might be possible to replace the animation with just footage taken from the game. This would make for a lower-quality video, but it brings it into the realm of possibility.
The devs are busy, so they mostly respond to the suggestions Bent accepts.
Should be possible.
This would be hard to measure. "Ledge regrabs" might work, though.
Pretty sure this would require a bunch of extra work.
Yes please.
Other ideas, off the top of my head: 666, Break, Limit, HtStn, 3.Q, Okay, WAA.
Kymaera K1ng
A PMCC player
Dammit!
A) That's some BSIf you tap back on the C-stick (back aerial) a second time after the first pikacopter, it cancels into a normal bair that you can control freely in the air. It also cancels into itself so you can do stuff like this.
B) I know about that, but it would be nice to be able to "save" the Pikacopter.
Besides, 64 BAir would be dope
kirby also receives a small amount of armor when he uses bowser's fire breath, but it is substantially weaker than royal rampage.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
So All of the changes below are APPROVED?
#1.) With C4 placed, pressing Down-Special and holding Special will lock Snake into a pre-trigger state of his detonation animation, and he will remain in that state until he either releases Special (detonating the C4) or Cancels out of it via any non-Special action.
#2.) If the above is true, Snake won't be able to fake out the same way he does in Project M, by holding Special. You could make him say "Now" and play a fake-out animation if A+B are pressed... but it would probably be easier to just implement Project M's setup instead of changes #1 and #2 here. I think changes #1 and #2 would give Snake more control over precisely when his C4 detonates, but this would require more PSA work.
#3.) C4 does not transfer between fighters on-contact anymore.
#4.) C4 will no longer self-detonate after a set period of time. It will remain in-place until detonated by Snake, or it is carried out-of-bounds. It vanishes when Snake is K.O.ed.