Super Smash Bros. 4 Discussion
- Thread starter Pin Clock
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Thor
Well-Known Member
That's the same as DIing stuff, and it puts them into edgeguard position/losing stage control if they VI away, or higher above you so you can force airdodge traps [airdodging into the ground isn't nearly as safe as Brawl or Melee] or juggle them more. The only difference that should ultimately come of this is that VI is more frequently done, even if accidentally, by new players, because most people instinctually think "getting hit by Fox usmash - hold away from blastline!" or they'll run into smash attacks and thus already be VIing properly.
Windego
Pew Pew Pew Buster
SPEAKING OF VECTORING : https://www.change.org/p/nintendo-patch-and-remove-vectoring-in-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-and-3ds
There's literally already a petition to have it removed from the game :|
There's literally already a petition to have it removed from the game :|
DubLTeamz
Master of Arbitrary Opnions
Eh, VI seems cool, people just don't like it cause it means combos aren't easy on low level players. High level players can predict and stuff to get around combos or start them, but low levels can't. VI just makes getting into Sm4sh easier, and IMO, thats a good thing.
On another note, Link's 3rd DownB option makes bombs spike:
Its only a soft spike, but I don't think its a meteor, so thats good. The drawback is they are heavier, so they don't fly as far. Good bomb spam though!
Also got the Demo, after several modem resets, so on to CPU rage!
EDIT: Damn, every time I try to upload the bomb spike GIF, the site gives an error. Heres a link at least to the page with it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=892673&page=259
Scroll down till you find a Link Custom Move review. Site rage time.
On another note, Link's 3rd DownB option makes bombs spike:
Its only a soft spike, but I don't think its a meteor, so thats good. The drawback is they are heavier, so they don't fly as far. Good bomb spam though!
Also got the Demo, after several modem resets, so on to CPU rage!
EDIT: Damn, every time I try to upload the bomb spike GIF, the site gives an error. Heres a link at least to the page with it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=892673&page=259
Scroll down till you find a Link Custom Move review. Site rage time.
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Finally have a free moment, so I now have a chance to get my opinion out there on Smash 4 (or rather, the demo we got)
Smash 4 is definitely an improvement from Brawl, no matter how you look at it. The visuals are colorful and bright, the GFX, which I was worried about at first, are all wonderful and add to a character's motions and hitbox locations, which is really useful. My personal favorite improvements, however, despite being a visual artist, are the sound effects. I love love love the sound effects. Every single one of them. They're all fantastic. Link charging his uSmash, Pikachu flipping his tail, all of them, perfect. One thing I hate is Smash 4's theme, which is played much more than Brawl's theme, which was at least varied. Smash 4's theme I'm already sick of hearing, and funny enough I want to hear Brawl's again.
But that's not why I feel like I should express my thoughts in a post like this. We all know what we truly care about, and that is the gameplay.
Core physics are...interesting. The decreased landlag on aerials is the best thing this game could have gotten, essentially an auto-L cancel, that allows for some powerful pressure. Also, the increased hitstun allows for some nice skill based combos, which makes for a really fun game and some really rewarding combos. I think I'm gonna have plenty of fun discovering more of these with the full game.
While air dodges can be punished on landing, they still feel relatively safe in the air. You can't use it to reduce your hitstun like in Brawl, but you can do it immediately out of it, which really hurts chasing. Blast zones are all two miles away from the stage, which makes KOs frustratingly hard. However, it does make it interesting as it feels like there's more of an attempt to focus on countering recoveries in this game. Gimping is going to be huge, I can tell. I still dislike these sizes though as the ceilings are impossibly high and there isn't much vertical chasing, what with all the Omega stage forms going around, so it's a matter of just...waiting for them to get down low enough to where you can smack them again, which is kind of boring. Only few characters have decent attacks for high-up foes (Mega's uAir or UpB to chase, Link's bombs, Pika's Thunder) so you're just stuck waiting. The meteor smash bounce is nice, but it seems like it's too easily teched, which kinda removes the fun of it since I won't get to see it that often and just meteor them to safety, which doesn't do anything to help me. A lot of grabs are good, but only half of them set up into anything, let alone kill. Which is fine, but a little disappointing considering that I'm used to them having much more utility. Chaingrab removing is a double edged sword, as while the problematic chaingrabs are removed, it seems long enough to prevent tech chasing or the like as well. It's a good mechanic to add but it goes on for a bit long. Oh, and don't get me started on vectoring. I really don't feel like that debate, but while it does hurt the game, it's not as huge as it's being made out to be.
Now on to the characters!
Mario is the one I've spent the most time playing with (seriously he's so fun) so I'll write about him first. He's got a solid approach with fireball as always (nAir is also another approach I like to use this time around, thanks to the reduced landlag), but it's made much better by everything Mario can do when hes up close. Strong Smashes, a dThrow that can lead into a bunch of uTilts, uTilts that can lead into uTilts, uTilts that lead into air combos, alright jabs, you want it, he's got it. Especially uTilt. Mario can still be gimped by a good opponent however, so you should really be aware of that. A custom move may be able to patch this up, though. Oh, and FLUDD is still pretty bad, so don't consider using it, even if the water spray looks nice.
Villager is who I played the most as asides Mario. He's got some solid normals, like slingshots, which are good pokes once you're used to the timing, dash attack, which is safe from a distance thanks to the flowerpot, fTilt, uSmash, and fSmash as a kill move. uAir and dAir are good for their purpose, but are affected by sheer chance, which can make the difference between a meteor and slight knockback. dSmash is too escapable to be of any real use. His grab is slow and his throws are average. Now let's get to what really makes him special: The specials! Pocket is as deep as Villager's pockets, as its use is relative to the match-up. The invuln moves give it use against certain attacks as well, for instance being able to avoid Link's Final Smash. Pocketing light projectiles lets him bother his foes the same way they bother him, and pocketing something powerful is the ultimate combo finisher, be it Thunder or Mega's charge shot. Balloon Fight is a silly vertical recovery with great range, but it's Minus habit for me to attempt an attack cancel. Silly me. Tree doesn't have much use, but I've only worked with what's reliable so far. Its lifespan is way too short to be set-up and used properly. But now we get to my favorite special in the whole demo, Loid Rocket. Oh man, there is so much you can do with this thing. You can zone with it, you can approach from it, you can use it to easily bait them into doing something else, you can recover with it, you can mindgame them into thinking you're recovering with it, you can ride it on-stage for a powerful attack, there is so much you can do with this move. It's endless and by far my favorite. Well done, Sakurai.
Mega Man is next on my character analysis. He's mixed. He's good but at the same time he's not. He's a zoner, but he was really hurt by the general projecile nerfs this game has. What feels like should og longer has relatively short range. Reflectors were also buffed to reset the amount a projectile can move upon reflecting (think how in Minus reflecting Final Cutter is useless due to it still carrying the range, but if it were in Smash 4, the cutter would go all the way back to Kirby), so that doesn't help Mega Man's fSmash or Crash Bomb either. Especially the fSmash. yikes. His Rush Coil is really good, allowing him to escape from combos and recover a decent height, but at the same time, he falls fairly fast, so he's still prone to things like juggling. He has notable physical moves, though. nAir up close is a solid "sex kick" type move, dTilt is fast and covers decent range, his uTilt a powerful kill move, and Dash Attack is the best thing in his whole kit. His specials are severely lacking, notably with Leaf Shield and ironically Metal Blade being rather useless, but custom specials can at least help those out. All in all, he could use improvements. P.S. Be careful with hard knuckle, if it's reflected, it goes UP. don't ask how that works.
Pikachu has some fantastic mobility, especially from UpB, and the Thunder Spike feels great, but asides that, he feels lacking. Thunder Jolt moves really slow, he has some combo ability but lacks killpower, is relatively lightweight, all around, Pikachu is "okay". Great mobility, but not all that much he can do with it.
Link, people have been saying he feels more like Young Link, and I'm inclined to agree. That sums up most of my thoughts, other than the dAir spike taking some time to get used to.
Sorry the level of detail slipped near the end (my fingers hurt from typing all that) but I am very much looking forward to Smash 4. Hell, the habit of thinking about how I would change up the game in a mod is another part of the fun for me!
Smash 4 is definitely an improvement from Brawl, no matter how you look at it. The visuals are colorful and bright, the GFX, which I was worried about at first, are all wonderful and add to a character's motions and hitbox locations, which is really useful. My personal favorite improvements, however, despite being a visual artist, are the sound effects. I love love love the sound effects. Every single one of them. They're all fantastic. Link charging his uSmash, Pikachu flipping his tail, all of them, perfect. One thing I hate is Smash 4's theme, which is played much more than Brawl's theme, which was at least varied. Smash 4's theme I'm already sick of hearing, and funny enough I want to hear Brawl's again.
But that's not why I feel like I should express my thoughts in a post like this. We all know what we truly care about, and that is the gameplay.
Core physics are...interesting. The decreased landlag on aerials is the best thing this game could have gotten, essentially an auto-L cancel, that allows for some powerful pressure. Also, the increased hitstun allows for some nice skill based combos, which makes for a really fun game and some really rewarding combos. I think I'm gonna have plenty of fun discovering more of these with the full game.
While air dodges can be punished on landing, they still feel relatively safe in the air. You can't use it to reduce your hitstun like in Brawl, but you can do it immediately out of it, which really hurts chasing. Blast zones are all two miles away from the stage, which makes KOs frustratingly hard. However, it does make it interesting as it feels like there's more of an attempt to focus on countering recoveries in this game. Gimping is going to be huge, I can tell. I still dislike these sizes though as the ceilings are impossibly high and there isn't much vertical chasing, what with all the Omega stage forms going around, so it's a matter of just...waiting for them to get down low enough to where you can smack them again, which is kind of boring. Only few characters have decent attacks for high-up foes (Mega's uAir or UpB to chase, Link's bombs, Pika's Thunder) so you're just stuck waiting. The meteor smash bounce is nice, but it seems like it's too easily teched, which kinda removes the fun of it since I won't get to see it that often and just meteor them to safety, which doesn't do anything to help me. A lot of grabs are good, but only half of them set up into anything, let alone kill. Which is fine, but a little disappointing considering that I'm used to them having much more utility. Chaingrab removing is a double edged sword, as while the problematic chaingrabs are removed, it seems long enough to prevent tech chasing or the like as well. It's a good mechanic to add but it goes on for a bit long. Oh, and don't get me started on vectoring. I really don't feel like that debate, but while it does hurt the game, it's not as huge as it's being made out to be.
Now on to the characters!
Mario is the one I've spent the most time playing with (seriously he's so fun) so I'll write about him first. He's got a solid approach with fireball as always (nAir is also another approach I like to use this time around, thanks to the reduced landlag), but it's made much better by everything Mario can do when hes up close. Strong Smashes, a dThrow that can lead into a bunch of uTilts, uTilts that can lead into uTilts, uTilts that lead into air combos, alright jabs, you want it, he's got it. Especially uTilt. Mario can still be gimped by a good opponent however, so you should really be aware of that. A custom move may be able to patch this up, though. Oh, and FLUDD is still pretty bad, so don't consider using it, even if the water spray looks nice.
Villager is who I played the most as asides Mario. He's got some solid normals, like slingshots, which are good pokes once you're used to the timing, dash attack, which is safe from a distance thanks to the flowerpot, fTilt, uSmash, and fSmash as a kill move. uAir and dAir are good for their purpose, but are affected by sheer chance, which can make the difference between a meteor and slight knockback. dSmash is too escapable to be of any real use. His grab is slow and his throws are average. Now let's get to what really makes him special: The specials! Pocket is as deep as Villager's pockets, as its use is relative to the match-up. The invuln moves give it use against certain attacks as well, for instance being able to avoid Link's Final Smash. Pocketing light projectiles lets him bother his foes the same way they bother him, and pocketing something powerful is the ultimate combo finisher, be it Thunder or Mega's charge shot. Balloon Fight is a silly vertical recovery with great range, but it's Minus habit for me to attempt an attack cancel. Silly me. Tree doesn't have much use, but I've only worked with what's reliable so far. Its lifespan is way too short to be set-up and used properly. But now we get to my favorite special in the whole demo, Loid Rocket. Oh man, there is so much you can do with this thing. You can zone with it, you can approach from it, you can use it to easily bait them into doing something else, you can recover with it, you can mindgame them into thinking you're recovering with it, you can ride it on-stage for a powerful attack, there is so much you can do with this move. It's endless and by far my favorite. Well done, Sakurai.
Mega Man is next on my character analysis. He's mixed. He's good but at the same time he's not. He's a zoner, but he was really hurt by the general projecile nerfs this game has. What feels like should og longer has relatively short range. Reflectors were also buffed to reset the amount a projectile can move upon reflecting (think how in Minus reflecting Final Cutter is useless due to it still carrying the range, but if it were in Smash 4, the cutter would go all the way back to Kirby), so that doesn't help Mega Man's fSmash or Crash Bomb either. Especially the fSmash. yikes. His Rush Coil is really good, allowing him to escape from combos and recover a decent height, but at the same time, he falls fairly fast, so he's still prone to things like juggling. He has notable physical moves, though. nAir up close is a solid "sex kick" type move, dTilt is fast and covers decent range, his uTilt a powerful kill move, and Dash Attack is the best thing in his whole kit. His specials are severely lacking, notably with Leaf Shield and ironically Metal Blade being rather useless, but custom specials can at least help those out. All in all, he could use improvements. P.S. Be careful with hard knuckle, if it's reflected, it goes UP. don't ask how that works.
Pikachu has some fantastic mobility, especially from UpB, and the Thunder Spike feels great, but asides that, he feels lacking. Thunder Jolt moves really slow, he has some combo ability but lacks killpower, is relatively lightweight, all around, Pikachu is "okay". Great mobility, but not all that much he can do with it.
Link, people have been saying he feels more like Young Link, and I'm inclined to agree. That sums up most of my thoughts, other than the dAir spike taking some time to get used to.
Sorry the level of detail slipped near the end (my fingers hurt from typing all that) but I am very much looking forward to Smash 4. Hell, the habit of thinking about how I would change up the game in a mod is another part of the fun for me!
Windego
Pew Pew Pew Buster
I have been playing Megaman a LOT and I can honestly say, his custom moves are much better alternatives. He gets Shadow Blade and Power Bombs to replace his B move and Ice Slasher and Danger Wrap to replace Side B. Non of his Down B moves suck less than Leaf Shield but at least Plant Barrier is the most usable since it doesn't go away if it hits someone. Also, some people say you can use Down B then run in and go for a throw to do extra damage but I feel that's just telegraphing what you're gonna do too much. Some people say you should throw Metal Blades to the floor and just throw them but that's still too predictable I feel. If Megaman's moves were quicker, they'd at least be much better and it'd require more timing and reads to see them coming. But as it stands, it's too easy to see Metal Blade/Crash Bomb/Charge Buster/etc. coming and pocket or reflect it
He's not awful but he does need improvement.Everything else you discussed about the other characters I agree with.
Also, here's a thread discussing Custom moves : http://smashboards.com/threads/my-custom-moveset-analyses-recently-added-lucario.367796/
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Windego
Pew Pew Pew Buster
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2gukz1/links_custom_moves_look_fantastic/
Yay, Link got so good <3 I also wanna point out, Ganondorf/Toon Link have different custom specials than their counterparts, thank god. Toon Link gets long lasting bombs for potential stage control and Link gets Meteor Bombs for example. They still share roughly a few customs but whatever. As someone who always likes using Link, it's nice he might finally be out of low tier hell
Yay, Link got so good <3 I also wanna point out, Ganondorf/Toon Link have different custom specials than their counterparts, thank god. Toon Link gets long lasting bombs for potential stage control and Link gets Meteor Bombs for example. They still share roughly a few customs but whatever. As someone who always likes using Link, it's nice he might finally be out of low tier hell
DubLTeamz
Master of Arbitrary Opnions
Been playing alot, and I LOVE Link. He seems much.... Better, really. Just strait up better. His Nair and Dair I especially love. Can't wait for Spike Bombs and Silver Arrows. I had been hearing how the CPU was much improved, but my experience hasn't felt like it, so that's disappointing. Can't really say I like Mega Man. He doesn't have any kill moves (That I'm aware of), and his specials are just.... Bleagh. Mario is cool, hes the only CPU to be difficult so far. Pikachu is nice, but I miss Thunder Spike. How does the Spike on Link's Dair work, exactly? I was able to spike with it several times in one match (About three, kept Mega Man offstage for a cool KO), but I can't find the Spike spot. Is it his hilt?
(^^^^Totally the most informative post ever. I get a cookie, right?^^^^)
tl;dr Blah blah blah blah blah. I'm loving it.
EDIT: Thought I should add, Link's shield is GREAT. It just blocked Villager's Side Smash (the bowling ball).
(^^^^Totally the most informative post ever. I get a cookie, right?^^^^)
tl;dr Blah blah blah blah blah. I'm loving it.
EDIT: Thought I should add, Link's shield is GREAT. It just blocked Villager's Side Smash (the bowling ball).
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Thor
Well-Known Member
Retardation at its finest.
Well I mean it doesn't have Ice Climbers so of course.
WAIT NO IT DOESN'T HAVE SNAKE
F*** YOU PIN!!! Pin Clock said:
People assuming that hurts the game is the only thing that will REALLY hurt the game - VI is different but in no way worse than DI, either as a mechanic or for the game as a whole. Stop assuming things that aren't true because you've cooked up random scenarios you think will work out without having tested things thoroughly.
Pin Clock said:
It's spelled "Lloid Rocket". In the words of those old NFL short segments of bad behavior/play, C'MON MAN!
Spike is on hilt, Pikachu's nair, fsmash, and usmash to DJ thunder can KO, as can utilt -> thunder -> stuff (That racks a lot of damage, you'd be surprised), and he can gimp fairly well with his throws and nair/dair.
Link is a lot more than just Young Link, but I'm not going into that.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Link is absolutely amazing. The back portion of his dsmash sending foes backwards is incredible. Makes it really hard for enemies to get back onstage.
Also, metal gear on megaman is only good at being thrown diagonally down offstage to kill players momentum. I find that this sets up for mega's dair a lot, but that depends on the foe's recovery. This really hurts link and Mario.
Also, metal gear on megaman is only good at being thrown diagonally down offstage to kill players momentum. I find that this sets up for mega's dair a lot, but that depends on the foe's recovery. This really hurts link and Mario.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
GAHHH! IT SUCKS TO HAVE NO WIFI! CAN'T GET THE DAM DEMO!
I'll just stick to Uprising.
*sobbing noises*
I'll just stick to Uprising.
*sobbing noises*
Thor
Well-Known Member
It also sucks not having a 3DS and just having to occasionally mooch off of someone else's demo, but I can see the problem because I actually DID get to play it for like 20 minutes.
That said, when it comes out, you can have it the day of, I can't. So hopefully you can enjoy it then.
Also, have you asked your parents about it and seen if they'll take you to Starbucks or something???
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Take me to Star...No!
Even if I did they're pretty busy. I just download it at my friends house.
Even if I did they're pretty busy. I just download it at my friends house.
Basically I agree with everything asides from these Megaman bits. IMO, Metal Blade is honestly the most usable special all-around. Asides from being able to toss it in any direction, it's also one of MM's better projectiles, as all the alternatives are either really laggy, only go a shortish range, or have some other weakness. The ability to regrab it adds to its utility. The only thing keeping it from being REALLY good is that its an item and can be picked up by opponents.
I guess I'll talk about his other moves.
Crash Bomb isn't... bad... maybe? It's just hard to use well (the same could be said about everything Mega has). It's hard to stick to opponents, but even when you do, your opponent might just run up to you, pass the bomb, and smack you away, leaving you in a worse position then you were before you used the move. It's also difficult to capitalize on when you do successfully stick it to your opponent, and it doesn't really kill either. I've gotten some reads into a Crash Bomb, but I keep wondering if there's something I'm missing...
Leaf Shield is bad. Just bad. Super punishable, way too short of a time limit to use well, and severely limits your options (you can't do normals or specials during it). The leaves don't even protect you most of the time even when you do have time to use it. It's not even very good as a projectile as it's telegraphed by at LEAST a whole second's worth of setup.
Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but Mega's only really good move is Bair. Maybe my opinion will change when I play against other people and not the CPU (PERFECT SHIELDING MY LIFE GAAAH).
NEWB
Well-Known Member
The CPU only got better at perfect shielding lol. I'm sick of the smash 4 perfect shield noise.
Mega also has a good fair. Super fast and it works really well with fast falling.
His Uair also kills just by bringing people straight up to the upper blastline. Is it easily escapable by a human?
Usmash, utilt, dsmash, and dash attack are all great moves but they are super laggy and punishable on whiff. His Nair is good but has shit range but it doa have really high knockback, very potent at gimping recovering foes.
His dair is also really good. Notice that hitboxes are super precise in this game. Mega, if not everyone, is simply able to just short hop over everything making his short hopped dair great at applying pressure and dealing damage.
Mega also has a good fair. Super fast and it works really well with fast falling.
His Uair also kills just by bringing people straight up to the upper blastline. Is it easily escapable by a human?
Usmash, utilt, dsmash, and dash attack are all great moves but they are super laggy and punishable on whiff. His Nair is good but has shit range but it doa have really high knockback, very potent at gimping recovering foes.
His dair is also really good. Notice that hitboxes are super precise in this game. Mega, if not everyone, is simply able to just short hop over everything making his short hopped dair great at applying pressure and dealing damage.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Look at it this way - the CPUs are now good training for making roll reads and punishing accordingly. If you can't hit them in neutral, try to get them to roll, then hit them for it.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
So is Mega Man awesome or sucky?
Windego
Pew Pew Pew Buster
Awesome air game, sucky specials
NEWB
Well-Known Member
He does have very fast up smash and down smash. His throws don't really combo but they are great at positioning and forces them to get through his projectiles again. Of say that he is underrated but he has a good reason to be underrated. I feel like he's new fox where he is hard to play and mega dittos are 100 percent balanced, skill and playstyle being the only thing that will determine victory.