Suggestions for changes to C. Falcon's taunts

[Bent 00]

From the Brawl Minus MAX topic over on smashmods.com:

How about giving Captain Falcon's side taunt ("Come on!") some buffs?

- Speed up the taunt, especially the startup
- Pull effect should start when Falcon moves his fingers and starts to speak
- Make taunt cancellable into any other move
- If it's cancelled after the pull effect starts, the pull effect remains until it's completed
- Same goes for Falcon's "Come on!" of course; he should finish saying that even if it's cancelled into another move
- Make the pull effect bring the opponent to Falcon more quickly
- Make the pull effect last longer, but only let one pull effect be active at once; a new one stops one in progress
- Perhaps left taunt could be a slower pull, and right taunt could be a faster pull?
- Or maybe slower pull could be default, but you get the faster pull when you hold the button down, or have an instant F.P. charged?
- Make the pull effect cover an area similar to the coverage of Ganondorf's Up Tilt, but not behind Falcon
- Make the pull effect drag aerial opponents down as well as to the side, but only if they're significantly higher up than Falcon
- Opponents lower than Falcon's vertical position should only be pulled to the side, not up or down
- Give Falcon super/light armor or intangibility during the taunt, so he doesn't just get blasted by the foe being pulled

Imagine this: Falcon is getting ranged by someone like ROB, Ivysaur, Zelda, or Samus. He's having trouble approaching them, so he uses side taunt to force them to Come on! A grounded opponent is quickly pulled towards Falcon, who can follow up with some jabs, a grab, or even an instant Falcon Punch. Of course, a quick-witted foe would be able to anticipate which move Falcon is pulling them towards, then dodge and counter. Airborne foes are pulled just the same, but only up to Falcon's position; their momentum may carry them a bit past Falcon, but the pull effect stops above Falcon and doesn't work behind him.

Anybody else like this idea at all? I think it would give Falcon some much-needed strength against getting zoned, and make some awesome combos possible too.

Relevant replies from the other topic:

Do you really think falcon needs a buff bent? All of those would be cool, but falcon is nearly perfect as is I think. All characters have advantages and all have weaknesses.

Of course that is only generally true.

I'd support giving Falcon's taunt a bit of a buff. As is, it doesn't really have a whole lot of applications other than being neat. When characters like Mario and Jigglypuff can use theirs in their play so effectively, I don't see a reason not to toss that in as well.

I like that falcon idea too

I'd be content with Falcon knee clanging with projectiles.

Alternatively, try playing Zamus. She's basically a Falcon that trades approach and 0-death combos for spacing and resets.

(to NEWB) Against ranged characters that can zone the heck out of him? Yeah, Falcon definitely needs help. Ganondorf got TWO new attacks to help him avoid getting zoned: the energy ball and the new Up Tilt. Now it's Falcon's turn.

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Ganon is a slow monster that gets comboed to death easier then falcon. These guys really aren't comparable. This projectile problem has been addressed with his raptor boost going through them.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Ganon is a slow monster that gets comboed to death easier then falcon. These guys really aren't comparable. This projectile problem has been addressed with his raptor boost going through them.

Falcon's current Side B doesn't seem to help me much against getting zoned by projectile spam. Maybe it would help more if Falcon were immune to the projectiles starting earlier in the move; as-is, Falcon has to input Side B well before he would impact an incoming projectile. Around half the time I'll just get knocked out of the Side B at startup.

Even if I do use Side B to successfully get through some projectiles, my opponent is usually too far away to be hit by the uppercut at the end -- so then I'm left wide open in endlag waiting to be hit by something worse than the projectiles I just dodged.

The new Side B was a step in the right direction, but Falcon needs more help against ranged opponents IMO.

 

[Tybis]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Each character has strengths and weaknesses (at least that's the idea). Falcon's weakness is zoning. Not saying he couldn't get some buffs, but don't completely eradicate his weaknesses.

Besides that, I think Side taunt is already really silly, and only meant to be humorous.

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Just for the record, I'm not against buffing falcon either. I'm just being the devils advocate for discussion purposes. Bent mains falcon and sees his zoning weakness as to great. I don't main falcon so I don't know.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

What weaknesses do Lucario and Dedede have?

As is, Falcon just doesn't stand any chance against good zoners like ROB and Ivysaur. He should get some buff that gives him at least a 40% chance of winning if the goal of roster balance stands. He currently seems to have less than a 20% chance of victory against those two. ROB in particular stomps on Falcon; even if Falcon manages to get past his Gyros and lasers, ROB will be waiting to smash him with one of many effective move options. I wonder how Falcon would fare against a good Dedede... Probably not well.

If anyone else has any ideas on how to help Falcon not get zoned, fire away.

To recap, the three ideas I've posted in various threads are (from most to least drastic):

- Give Falcon a gun (ha ha yeah right)
- Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to bring his opponents to him better
- Make Falcon start dodging projectiles earlier in his Side B

 

[Glyph]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

D3 is completely helpless once you get through his minion waves, and is INCREDIBLY easy to combo. His recovery is good if you can manage to start your up-b, but if you get to him before that super armor starts he's very easy to gimp. Not only that, but his recovery path is very obvious from the moment it starts up meaning even if you can't gimp him, you can intercept as he lands.

Lucario's weakness is if you win too many games with Lucario a demon appears and smacks you on the back of the head. Also Lucario is little more than a baby kitten at 0% (really any low percentage), meaning you can simply ignore him and try to set up a big combo while he tries to kill you in vain. Lucario is also VERY difficult to control with precision, namely when you're chasing with your up-b against someone who knows how to DI pretty well.

No character is without flaw. It just might look like it at a glance because a good player will be able to cover their weaknesses and utilize their strengths.

For the record, I'd put the Falcon ROB matchup at 35-65. Still heavily in ROB's favor as ROB has a lot of options, but I've played games against Falcons who abuse the projectile immunity on side-b a lot more often than you do. It makes a big difference once you get the hang of it. ROB is also a big slow target in the air and can't air dodge out of his up-b, meaning he's a sitting duck for a big hit from Falcon.

Your goal of a 40% chance of winning is unreasonable in a game with 39 playable characters. Some are going to be good against others, thats just an inherent trait of video games. In this particular instance you're still blaming the character when you should be looking at the player, at least until another ROB or Ivysaur starts making waves.

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

If you fought my rob or ivy bent, they wouldn't seem like they have a huge advantage. And while zones do well against falcon, I wouldn't say that most of the vast are zoners, so falcon isn't really in need of further balancing if he already places high. Weaker characters should be getting more atention. The gap between strong and weak characters is steadily growing, even though everyone got some buffs' though some just got nerfs.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Good points on Dedede and Lucario.

It's true that no character is going to have no weakness, but you've got to admit some characters have much more weak aspects than other stronger characters. I agree that a 40% chance of winning for any matchup is unreasonable for characters on the extreme side of a spectrum, like Bowser -- but for the ones in the middle (like Falcon and Mario), I think it's a good goal to aim for. If you want to prove that's not feasible, how about posting some matchups for mid-spectrum characters where one will always have a severe disadvantage?

Who else plays Falcon? I'd like to see how others play him differently.

As for me "blaming the character when I should be looking at the player"... I don't have many people to play against, and only a few of those players are really good, and play seriously at a high level. So if I only know one guy who plays ROB, all I have to judge ROB by is that one player's ability with it. Better to voice an opinion on how one person plays ROB than to not say anything about it at all, right?

It's awkward trying to suggest balance changes based on online matches, since the lag keeps most characters from being as fast and precise as they can be. It's much better if you have two or more people of high skill and experience who can play locally. That said, how many Minus players of the same ability do you know locally, Glyph? How does your ROB and Ivy fare against them? If either of them hardly ever lose, they need balancing. I've already posted my thoughts about ROB elsewhere, and Ivysaur... She doesn't seem as overpowering as ROB, but she does perform a bit too well IMO. You started practicing seriously with Ivy around the same time I picked up Zelda IIRC, but your Ivy didn't have much trouble with my Zelda the last time we played. I haven't played against Ivysaur enough to have a really solid opinion of her yet, which is why I asked what others thought of her in the smashmods thread.

Hm, got off-topic there.

 

[Glyph]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I'd say both Poo and Jomo are on par with or slightly below my skill level, offline in particular. Neither of the two have very good internet so its hard to give them a good showing online (Jomo in particular will have his wii freeze entirely for about 5 seconds in the middle of matches while the opponent's keeps going). Poo has a hard time against my ROB, but regularly takes me to my last stock and often at high percentage and has beaten it several times now. Jomo straight up will sometimes beat me four or five times in a row, but I do the same to him. We go pretty close to 50-50.

They both absolutely crush my Ivysaur, I don't even try her against them anymore. I've been playing for at least a few months now though. Its not so much that I did a bunch of practice and got better with Ivysaur but more that I learned how to play her against your characters a lot more effectively with practice.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

If you fought my rob or ivy bent, they wouldn't seem like they have a huge advantage. And while zones do well against falcon, I wouldn't say that most of the vast are zoners, so falcon isn't really in need of further balancing if he already places high. Weaker characters should be getting more atention. The gap between strong and weak characters is steadily growing, even though everyone got some buffs' though some just got nerfs.

You play Ivy now too? Nice. I heard you picked up ROB a while ago. Let's have some more matches sometime.

My problem with your first sentence there: I'm assuming your ROB and Ivysaur aren't the best they can be yet, right? Whereas my Falcon is about as good as he's gonna get online. I've played Falcon a LONG time (back in vBrawl and in Minus since day one), similar to how long Glyph has played ROB. I'm sure there's a few things I can do better as him, but I feel I play a grade "A" Falcon in Minus. If you're not playing ROB or Ivy at the same level, it doesn't prove those two aren't OP if I do well against you as Falcon. No offense!

Characters should be balanced based mainly on where they place in the tiers of top-level play. If a newbie wrecks his friends (who only play Minus casually) with Ganondorf's OHKOs, does that mean Ganondorf is broken? Nope. When I started getting good as Zelda, everyone in my two local groups were calling her cheap and OP. After I told them how they just need to fight a ranged character differently, they fared much better -- one of them goes even against her now, and two others have a 30-40% chance of winning if they use their best main. I wonder how they'd do if I played ROB and Ivysaur as well as Glyph does? Only one way to find out...

 

[Kien]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Is Falcon really having issues against projectiles? He moves really fast and has good jumping range.

 

[Saradi]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

What if Falcon's side b was made into more of a dash that didn't automatically uppercut at the end of it and is cancellable into dash/jump etc? With maybe a little more distance and/or momentum.
I feel like that would make it more versatile for approaching spammers while still having the option of the regular raptor boost.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

That sounds pretty unnecessary, as he'd have more results just from running and short hopping.

 

[justadood]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

That would give such crazy distance to his falcon kick and pawnch ...I think itcould be grab-cancelable though ...and again, I am all for the "come on!" Pulling more... maybe it's cancelable into grabs too, and if it's spammed he'll keep pulling, but a little more lightly? It should at least be grab-cancelable since he IS saying "come on!" X3 it would make total sense, and this way you have the option of using side b to get close and grab, or your taunt to pull them in and grab

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Both of those things buff him a lot. I don't want to buff him for the sake of buffing him! He's fine and deadly as he is now.

 

[justadood]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

i'm not agreeing with the "interrupt side b with anything" option, but why not grabs? and why not be able to interrupt the taunt with a grab too?

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Being able to interrupt grabs from side b is stupid because grabbing is better than raptor boost 100% of the time. RB is only good for countering projectiles.

I wouldn't be against interrupting taunt with grab. He doesn't need it though since he moves very quickly. Dashing and grabbing is the same as suction and grabbing.

 

[justadood]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

yow just being ignent

Spoiler

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I don't get it lol. I know that's South Park, but what? I didn't mean to offend.

Am I correct in what I said About it though?

 

[justadood]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

i can agree with you to some point, but i don't think i'd ban falcon if i was on the receiving end of his side b-into grab-cancel truth is, the side b doesn't link combos as well anymore, and it should be possible to do that.. maybe with the grab-cancelling idea, it could just require more precise timing to do so... and the idea for the "come on!" taunt to be able to cancel into something is so that once you've pulled someone to your face, it's worth it for some reason. otherwise, you're just about to get whacked and since grabs typically have very short range, it would have to be used as a last second thing, since they can attack with regular moves if they're close enough... however, if you don't like the idea of this taunt grab cancelling, another option would be to make it able to cancel into "Pawnch!"... maybe if [the Pawnch] had slightly less range than it does now, this method would be more helpful... another possibility is to make opponents right in front of him could trip during his "come on!" taunt, so if opponents are too close, they don't end up comboing him... at most they could tech attack and just knock him away this way

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Well again, the raptor boost is tailored to only dodge and counter projectiles. It will always be better to grab someone then link with end of RB, which makes it to good since dthrow true combos with knee anyway. That hits further and harder then RB.

As for taunts, their purpose is helplessly blurred to me at this point. To me, what would be cool is that the taunt might pull and pick up distant items. That would be awesome and not buff him much at all, but be really cool. Just grabs a beam sword from the other end of fd

Bombs would explode on him instead though lol. And rolling crates would get him too, Not barrels though. Dude was asking for it.

 

[Saradi]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I agree that the side taunt buff is a good idea and that it should be cancellable into grabs.
Instead of Falcon doing his little hop, turn, slight hold then "cmon!" the animation could just be one big quick gesture of "cmon!" with the big pull in.
However way they would do it would be a great tool for Capt.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I agree that the side taunt buff is a good idea and that it should be cancellable into grabs.
Instead of Falcon doing his little hop, turn, slight hold then "cmon!" the animation could just be one big quick gesture of "cmon!" with the big pull in.
However way they would do it would be a great tool for Capt.

The problem with this these kind of secret taunts aren't meant to be used in actual play...at least not in a really useful way.

Aside from that, i don't even know how we would code that, currently it pulls everyone on the entire stage. Not just that, but i really don't feel that he needs anything like that. Cap is really good, and even if we gave that to him, his other options in that moment would be a better choice then the taunt. AND almost any way that me or the other devs code that, its almost certain to be abusable because of the nature of the taunt itself.

Nevertheless its still a thought! you guys' feedback is always welcome

 

[Saradi]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I agree that the side taunt buff is a good idea and that it should be cancellable into grabs.
Instead of Falcon doing his little hop, turn, slight hold then "cmon!" the animation could just be one big quick gesture of "cmon!" with the big pull in.
However way they would do it would be a great tool for Capt.

The problem with this these kind of secret taunts aren't meant to be used in actual play...at least not in a really useful way.

Aside from that, i don't even know how we would code that, currently it pulls everyone on the entire stage. Not just that, but i really don't feel that he needs anything like that. Cap is really good, and even if we gave that to him, his other options in that moment would be a better choice then the taunt. AND almost any way that me or the other devs code that, its almost certain to be abusable because of the nature of the taunt itself.

Nevertheless its still a thought! you guys' feedback is always welcome

Actually I just recently tried zeus and Falcon already has this in there
I was just giving my two cents on the matter anyway