Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
not exactly safer, more rewarding. When jiggly and her opponent are offstage and she's behind them
EDIT: nvm what I said about Dacus upsmash, or rest
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Moves that need Buffing or Re-Working to be viable
- Thread starter Bent 00
- Start date
EDIT: nvm what I said about Dacus upsmash, or rest
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
If you're within range for usmash, you're with range for rest. If you can kill with usmash, you can kill with rest.
Okay, at that point you should fair, or bair because faster, more range, and KO power. Bair even eats through alot of other arieals and some special moves.
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We got you covered. That's all that can be said.
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
Great to hear. Looking forward to it.
Valravn
Well-Known Member
I was messing around with some Sonic strats today, trying to figure out if the Spin Dash (Pretty sure that's what they call the Down-B?) is ever useful.
It has an absurd start-up time compared to the rest of Sonic's horizontal movement options, it isn't particularly fast, and it doesn't deal much damage. If you manage to connect (and your opponent fails to react at all during your massive end-lag) you can get a followup with a short-hopped Fair or something; but you could do more damage using Boost -> basically any other option and use a different followup.
I compiled a list of useful situations for the Spin Dash:
1. You want to feint an approach and use the Spin Dash's jump functionality to hop over or above the opponent instead. This would be a good use, except there's no reason your opponent should expect you to connect the spin dash in any case.
I don't ever consider using the move to be my best option for approaching, evading, dealing damage, or even just messing with spacing. It's hard to beat Boost's horizontal movement capabilities, so I think that Spin Dash should either do something else as a main focus or allow for a different sort of horizontal motion. I was considering the implications of being able to cancel Spin Dash into a taunt at any time. If one were to use a taunt during the move, one could instantly stop to taunt. Sonic has (I think) the unique property of instantly-cancellable taunts, so one could then act with liberty after immediately stopping. This is assuming that momentum wouldn't be maintained between the Spin Dash and the taunt, and I'm not actually sure if it could work that way. The move would then exchange higher startup time (compared to Boost) for more options at the end of the move.
For example, if I want to move across the stage and use Up-Smash, I have a couple options.
1. Walk over and use the move (lame, but accurate.)
2. Run over while timing the hyphen smash (really fast, but inaccurate)
3. Boost over, pivot/crouch brake and then use the move (can be very fast, but easy to evade)
Or, with this change:
4. Spin dash to the side, taunt, up smash (startup animation gives it away immediately, but very fast and accurate)
The alternative would be to give a reason for a player to actually connect the move. (So that feinting could be useful.) Somewhat more damage, or popping up the target to a better combo angle.
Just spitballing. If anyone else finds the move to be useful, I'd love to know how.
It has an absurd start-up time compared to the rest of Sonic's horizontal movement options, it isn't particularly fast, and it doesn't deal much damage. If you manage to connect (and your opponent fails to react at all during your massive end-lag) you can get a followup with a short-hopped Fair or something; but you could do more damage using Boost -> basically any other option and use a different followup.
I compiled a list of useful situations for the Spin Dash:
1. You want to feint an approach and use the Spin Dash's jump functionality to hop over or above the opponent instead. This would be a good use, except there's no reason your opponent should expect you to connect the spin dash in any case.
I don't ever consider using the move to be my best option for approaching, evading, dealing damage, or even just messing with spacing. It's hard to beat Boost's horizontal movement capabilities, so I think that Spin Dash should either do something else as a main focus or allow for a different sort of horizontal motion. I was considering the implications of being able to cancel Spin Dash into a taunt at any time. If one were to use a taunt during the move, one could instantly stop to taunt. Sonic has (I think) the unique property of instantly-cancellable taunts, so one could then act with liberty after immediately stopping. This is assuming that momentum wouldn't be maintained between the Spin Dash and the taunt, and I'm not actually sure if it could work that way. The move would then exchange higher startup time (compared to Boost) for more options at the end of the move.
For example, if I want to move across the stage and use Up-Smash, I have a couple options.
1. Walk over and use the move (lame, but accurate.)
2. Run over while timing the hyphen smash (really fast, but inaccurate)
3. Boost over, pivot/crouch brake and then use the move (can be very fast, but easy to evade)
Or, with this change:
4. Spin dash to the side, taunt, up smash (startup animation gives it away immediately, but very fast and accurate)
The alternative would be to give a reason for a player to actually connect the move. (So that feinting could be useful.) Somewhat more damage, or popping up the target to a better combo angle.
Just spitballing. If anyone else finds the move to be useful, I'd love to know how.
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Fight me on wifi and I'll show you just how wrong you are. But if you can't do that and just want me to explain how the move is good I guess you can let me know.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
i think ice climbers needs some help. they produce low damage compared to the cast, the only moderately consistent damage combination they have is Dthrow/Fthrow --> Fair --> ice block/blizzard, and if the opponent techs ( which they most likely will if they're good), then you can only do blizzard and that requires insane reflexes. Not to mention how most, if not all the cast are capable of separating them easily ( or if Captain falcon's case, he just needs to space good, but this MU was bad since melee, but doable). So, im proposing a chaingrab for ICs (not INFINITE, thats different), remove the ice from Dair, and have the knockback just 'pops' up the opponent. If anybody disagrees, please do.
Valravn
Well-Known Member
Never mind my complaints about Spin Dash, as usual when I think a move is bad I am simply using it poorly. Somehow I didn't realize before that one could immediately use aerials out of Spin Dash in the air, which makes it a really good combo move. I'd still like to know what you do with it though, Kienamaru.
(I still think that it'd be cool to be able to taunt-cancel it, but I'm not sure whether that would give Sonic too many mixup moves.)
EDIT: I do lack internet, I'm posting from a nearby library. Soon, though!
(I still think that it'd be cool to be able to taunt-cancel it, but I'm not sure whether that would give Sonic too many mixup moves.)
EDIT: I do lack internet, I'm posting from a nearby library. Soon, though!
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Sonic's dash attack cancels into taunts or maybe just side taunt. Dash attack is already jump cancelable I think, but this is useful to cancel into a ground move.
Also, did you figure out how dash attack cancels into spin dash? By simply pressing B.
I try not to offend, but not knowing about his spind dash canceling in the air into moves like you said makes me...unsure about how much you know about him. Are you somewhat new to minus?
If you have any more questions, be sure to let us know! The only changelogs around here are the ones from recent updates. You'd have to dig around here to otherwise find out things.
Also, did you figure out how dash attack cancels into spin dash? By simply pressing B.
I try not to offend, but not knowing about his spind dash canceling in the air into moves like you said makes me...unsure about how much you know about him. Are you somewhat new to minus?
If you have any more questions, be sure to let us know! The only changelogs around here are the ones from recent updates. You'd have to dig around here to otherwise find out things.
Valravn
Well-Known Member
I've been playing Minus for about 6 months, though not much Sonic until the past two months. I am aware that dash attack cancels into Spin Dash.
As to the revelation about aerials out of the airborne Spin Dash, let's just say it was more of me not realizing that as a unique effect than me not knowing to do that. I feel particularly silly about calling the move useless because I've actually used it for chasing with aerials pretty regularly for weeks. Mentally, I assumed I was using the moves at the end of a homing attack, but homing attack and Spin Dash are distinct. Perhaps it's a holdover from watching others play Sonic in vBrawl (I never really played him then) and assuming all of the shitty spinning moves were the same. I had to take some time in a few practice matches against AI to map out the actual mechanics of the move to make sure I knew what I was talking about, and found out I didn't.
As to the revelation about aerials out of the airborne Spin Dash, let's just say it was more of me not realizing that as a unique effect than me not knowing to do that. I feel particularly silly about calling the move useless because I've actually used it for chasing with aerials pretty regularly for weeks. Mentally, I assumed I was using the moves at the end of a homing attack, but homing attack and Spin Dash are distinct. Perhaps it's a holdover from watching others play Sonic in vBrawl (I never really played him then) and assuming all of the shitty spinning moves were the same. I had to take some time in a few practice matches against AI to map out the actual mechanics of the move to make sure I knew what I was talking about, and found out I didn't.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Her grab game isn't where she is strongest, but I don't know about other characters grab ranges or what her grab range is relative to vbrawl.
Also, her ftilt never felt bad to me. Can't it juggle a couple hits or combo into fsmash or uptilt? Or does DI ruin that?
Also, her ftilt never felt bad to me. Can't it juggle a couple hits or combo into fsmash or uptilt? Or does DI ruin that?
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Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Jiggs uthrow. Cmon. Can't follow up with anything.
She has short grab ranges because we programmed her to have the strongest throw in the game, give or take a few exceptions for special cases. her f-throw to be specific. Look at other characters grabs who have short ranges, most don't extend all the way out to the extremities.
Kirby's grab range is larger. Kirby's. Titchy armed characters shouldn't have longer grab ranges than humans.I'd at least like the animation to match up to the hitbox. As for ftilt, nair bair or fair is possible at low percent but it has huge kb scaling from what I've seen. It only combos at really low percents.
So I don't rage as hard lol. I don't really want a buff, I realize that would be incredibly stupid. I think It'sd be hilarious if her arm shrank when she grabbed or something lol. I made a joke last night on irc about how she drives the karts in mario kart with her forearms.
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I don't want that just make the animation match up.