Moves that need Buffing or Re-Working to be viable
- Thread starter Bent 00
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Thor
Well-Known Member
I meant by a new animation that you just remove lasers entirely from Falco's uthrow. I dunno, maybe some sort of uppercut animation or something... or are you saying that even with a new uthrow animation, you'd still mess up the BKB and KBG values, and that we don't have the ability to delink those? Because I will say it is the worst throw in the game, hands down.
If possible, just a uthrow where Falco throws them up, then in like a machine gun style fires a spray of lasers would be really awesome (like, think a wave of like 7 lasers emanating out from Falco, from front to back, his gun in a sweeping arc over his head). While it may not be practical, it would at least look awesome, and if they DI it to where the later lasers are, then followups may be possible.
I can come up with other ideas if these don't work or whatever, but I'd really like to see his uthrow not be like Ganondorf utilt (in Melee), where your opponent's only logical response is either "I'm so screwed they're taunting me" or "That must be an input error" [or "they're bad at this if they're using that move"].
I mean, there isn't, but... it's awesome, and Sheik is literally one of two characters that can't do it, the other being a character who is probably one of, if not the, most durable in game, at least off the sides. And Sheik couldn't get under, even when she had her higher jumps. I just like the idea of everyone being able to go under - among other things, it shows that Sheik has among the poorest recoveries in the game, purely from a distance perspective (she admittedly has great aerials and dodges to help, but the chain having less lag would be a small buff, but might help her get under, which would be awesome).
Also, my way of improving chain a little, admittedly at a risk of making it a little too good- it's JCable on startup (Also good if you mess up and accidentally use it) and on hit (so you don't have to just smack your opponent around until they SDI out and then beat you up). But you can't JC it while just flailing it around [if this is possible...].
If possible, just a uthrow where Falco throws them up, then in like a machine gun style fires a spray of lasers would be really awesome (like, think a wave of like 7 lasers emanating out from Falco, from front to back, his gun in a sweeping arc over his head). While it may not be practical, it would at least look awesome, and if they DI it to where the later lasers are, then followups may be possible.
I can come up with other ideas if these don't work or whatever, but I'd really like to see his uthrow not be like Ganondorf utilt (in Melee), where your opponent's only logical response is either "I'm so screwed they're taunting me" or "That must be an input error" [or "they're bad at this if they're using that move"].
The Concept said:
I mean, there isn't, but... it's awesome, and Sheik is literally one of two characters that can't do it, the other being a character who is probably one of, if not the, most durable in game, at least off the sides. And Sheik couldn't get under, even when she had her higher jumps. I just like the idea of everyone being able to go under - among other things, it shows that Sheik has among the poorest recoveries in the game, purely from a distance perspective (she admittedly has great aerials and dodges to help, but the chain having less lag would be a small buff, but might help her get under, which would be awesome).
Also, my way of improving chain a little, admittedly at a risk of making it a little too good- it's JCable on startup (Also good if you mess up and accidentally use it) and on hit (so you don't have to just smack your opponent around until they SDI out and then beat you up). But you can't JC it while just flailing it around [if this is possible...].
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
The changes I'm making make Flying Warlock Punches and Gandoukens useful without damaging functionality the of air-to-ground versions.
I plan on posting my work-in-progress edit soon, if anyone wants to try it.
Just because it's so fun and satisfying to land Flying Warlock Punches. The alternative is to leave aerial Warlock Punch / Gandouken as useless suicide moves, and that's lame...
One of my favorite things about the Falcon Punch is how versatile it is. You can use it in a variety of different ways to surprise your opponent. I've spent many hours practicing the PAWNCH alone -- now I'm able to land it at least 1-3 times on average in offline matches against similarly skilled opponents. Ganondorf's 3.3 O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch, on the other hand, is slower, more predictable, and more punishable. While the PAWNCH can be set up in a few different ways, Warlock Punch can only combo with Gandouken. The devs' logic is that is should be this way because it is a O.H.K.O. move, but as I've said before: I'd rather have a weaker move that is versatile, less predictable, and less punishable than a very strong move that rarely connects.
Sure, why not? As I said, I think useless moves are wasted potential. Every move should have its niche IMO.
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Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Jiggly's dair. It needs help.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Not really. I don't think it's necessary and her old dair was better, but there isn't anything wrong with it per say.
I guess it's one of those moves that Sammi talked about is situational and not always useful. I believe this because unlike sheiks grounded chain and Mario's grounded firebrand, that move is perfectly functional. Though it is bad compared to the old one.
I guess it's one of those moves that Sammi talked about is situational and not always useful. I believe this because unlike sheiks grounded chain and Mario's grounded firebrand, that move is perfectly functional. Though it is bad compared to the old one.
Lol his recovery is the main issue.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Jiggs has four moves that offet absolutely nothing NEWB. I've clocked in too many hours to not know what works for jigs and what doesn't.
1.dair should NOT give downward momentum. It as crappy range. You could've just faired or naired.
2. Uptilt I dont think there's ever a reason to use this move. Yeah it sets up for combos but again, in t hat time and range, you should just grab, dash attack, fsmash, bair, or fair.
3. Uair just acts like a shorter and smaller nair.
4.Usmash now it is usefull..... rarely. You could at just shorthop into rest at that time and range. The endlag makes it hard to follow up on. I know its supposed to be a kill move so the endlag is typically there for kill moves. However, you know what setups into upsmash? The same setup for WOP. If you're jiggs you dont want them going up. You want them going left/right and down.
Honestly Jiggs only needs fair, bair, nair, grab, and fsmash. And thats not okay.
1.dair should NOT give downward momentum. It as crappy range. You could've just faired or naired.
2. Uptilt I dont think there's ever a reason to use this move. Yeah it sets up for combos but again, in t hat time and range, you should just grab, dash attack, fsmash, bair, or fair.
3. Uair just acts like a shorter and smaller nair.
4.Usmash now it is usefull..... rarely. You could at just shorthop into rest at that time and range. The endlag makes it hard to follow up on. I know its supposed to be a kill move so the endlag is typically there for kill moves. However, you know what setups into upsmash? The same setup for WOP. If you're jiggs you dont want them going up. You want them going left/right and down.
Honestly Jiggs only needs fair, bair, nair, grab, and fsmash. And thats not okay.
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
You have a point there. That's more of an issue with playstyle though. Of all those moves, I would think you would know how good her Uair is. It is practically the best gimping move in minus right now. Do it twice to someone offstage and they practically die. It also sets up for fsmash and is very easy to setup from a sourspot Nair or fair.
Her dair is weird. It is a forward hitting move that beings her down. I snot know how to use this move properly but I think it does chase to the ground and it's a good way to get Jiggs to the ground a little faster.
Utilt has more range behind and abov her than infront of her. That means if they are behind Jiggs, you can't grab them. This move is done when blocking moves from behind her. It's an action you should do out of shield in this case.
Usmash is there I think to overpower other in coming aerials from opponents.
I will concede that your playstyle only needs those few moves you mentioned, but that's a different problem. These moves here are fully functional.
Her dair is weird. It is a forward hitting move that beings her down. I snot know how to use this move properly but I think it does chase to the ground and it's a good way to get Jiggs to the ground a little faster.
Utilt has more range behind and abov her than infront of her. That means if they are behind Jiggs, you can't grab them. This move is done when blocking moves from behind her. It's an action you should do out of shield in this case.
Usmash is there I think to overpower other in coming aerials from opponents.
I will concede that your playstyle only needs those few moves you mentioned, but that's a different problem. These moves here are fully functional.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
This has little to do with my playstyle as I'm always trying to experiment. Uair is once again, beat out by fair, nair, bair. Why? The hitboxes are bigger, faster, safer more knockback. Uair has gotten me killed on several occasions.
Dair brings jiggs to the ground? Jiggs has no business on the ground outside of A comboing, fsmash, dsmash, ftilt. Which all , guess what? Lead to air combos and tech/ roll chases.
Utilt? No. Shorthop -> nair.
My only way to explain this is for you to compare. Out of sheild? Fsmash.
Playstyle or not, its a playstyle *about* this moveset. No matter what situation you're in to use any of these four moves, there's a better option.
Dair brings jiggs to the ground? Jiggs has no business on the ground outside of A comboing, fsmash, dsmash, ftilt. Which all , guess what? Lead to air combos and tech/ roll chases.
Utilt? No. Shorthop -> nair.
My only way to explain this is for you to compare. Out of sheild? Fsmash.
Playstyle or not, its a playstyle *about* this moveset. No matter what situation you're in to use any of these four moves, there's a better option.
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
If Jiggs is running out of jumps and she is near the ground, then she does want to get to the ground. A good time for her to get to get to the ground is after she hits someone, but if she can't get in, this is a useful option.
Anyone that plays you enough bash will learn to read those movements. If you keep reacting that way out shield when I attack from behind, I will learn to shield and grab you. Utilt pushes me back if I shield it, making it so I can't grab you unless I have a tether grab. Short hopping Nair out of shield will only work if the foe is in endlag still. Recall that I said that utilt in both situations are out of shield.
Bash, you have the best Jiggs. Mine isn't that great compared to yours, but it has saved my butt and won me matches. It's actually really easy to land. People actually hate this move and want it changed because it combos into itself and is really good at gimping characters like falcon. It is in no way inferior. Unlike the other aerials, this scores kills really early all the time.
Anyone that plays you enough bash will learn to read those movements. If you keep reacting that way out shield when I attack from behind, I will learn to shield and grab you. Utilt pushes me back if I shield it, making it so I can't grab you unless I have a tether grab. Short hopping Nair out of shield will only work if the foe is in endlag still. Recall that I said that utilt in both situations are out of shield.
Bash, you have the best Jiggs. Mine isn't that great compared to yours, but it has saved my butt and won me matches. It's actually really easy to land. People actually hate this move and want it changed because it combos into itself and is really good at gimping characters like falcon. It is in no way inferior. Unlike the other aerials, this scores kills really early all the time.
Representing the "other" Purin playstyle, I don't think uptilt and upsmash are as useless as you think.
Uptilt has always comboed into Rest, since SSB64. I can land it 97% of the time, that is if I don't get uptilt shielded.
Upsmash is an option I usually reserve for sliding smashes or rollout-cancelled moves, along with downsmash.
For downair, downair > downair > downair > ..... > uptilt > rest > ??? > PROFIT!
And just like NEWB said, upair gimps. Upair gimps for days.
Uptilt has always comboed into Rest, since SSB64. I can land it 97% of the time, that is if I don't get uptilt shielded.
Upsmash is an option I usually reserve for sliding smashes or rollout-cancelled moves, along with downsmash.
For downair, downair > downair > downair > ..... > uptilt > rest > ??? > PROFIT!
And just like NEWB said, upair gimps.
Upair gimps for days.Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Wait wait wait. How are you running out of jumps with jiggs?
Purin only has 9 jumps.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
The only thing about that is while utilt combos into rest, it onky does that when the opponent can't be killed by rest, making it pointless to do so since opponents can just land and hit you.... Right? That's how it was last I checked.
I don't use rollout that way. Probably should learn about that.
About running out of jumps, I meant that more as you used like 5 already and you may want to land to get them back. It's pretty hard to run out of jumps but it does limit your movement options and combo options when running on low. She has so many jumps, you don't really need to be that mindful of it.
I don't use rollout that way. Probably should learn about that.
About running out of jumps, I meant that more as you used like 5 already and you may want to land to get them back. It's pretty hard to run out of jumps but it does limit your movement options and combo options when running on low. She has so many jumps, you don't really need to be that mindful of it.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
I definitly dont main jiggly, but i can say some stuff due to having her as a main one time before. (feel free to correct me)
1. Dair, I believe, should be used for a descending approach, giving the downwards momentum. it also sets up for a tech chase sometimes.
2. Uptilt sets aerial combos where almost none of jigglys other moves do (besides grab, and that char specific)
3. Uair is for gimping recoveries. its absolutely amazing at that.
4. Usmash should be used as a ground-based mobility option with DACUS, as it and Dtilt, help give Jiggly a better ground game
you may have clocked alot of hours into jiggly (much more than i have), but i think there's more to this char than you could see.
Glyph
Moderator
Bash is completely on point with his Jiggs points. To give you a little dev insight on why they are the way they are, the issue was that the old uair and dair could combo into rest. I wasn't around during that era so I can't vouch for how reliable those combos were (older players have told me it only combo'd reliably before KO percentages) but I certainly think it's something that deserves to be looked at again.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
1.No. Just no.
2. Once again, why utilt when Nair is safer and more versatile. Nair leads into much more than anything utilt can dream of. Or you can just fsmash. At utilt range, you will either hit them (yay) or hit sheild and go behind them.( usually what happens. They roll? Nair. they still shield? Do whatevs.) You can even dsmash. D00d.
3. It CAN do that then again, fair, nair bair can do the same job. Are also safer, faster, better range.
4.You overestimate dtilt. Why are you trying to DACUS? Why are you even on the ground to begin with? If you can kill with upsmash, you can kill with rest and heal that %.
Worst place for jiggs to be is directly below them.
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
Bash, the point here is that these moves are from useless comparatively to moves like DK's air down b and sheik's grounded sideb. None of those moves except maybe her dair and Uair warrant any tweaks yet. Not untill the next power creep anyway.
Uair when used right is also very safe by the way.
That being said, I would be very open to discussing possible reworks. Free country.
Uair when used right is also very safe by the way.
That being said, I would be very open to discussing possible reworks. Free country.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
They are useless. Anytime you can use these moves, you can use a better one and get better results. Thats what viability is about.
Explain to me one offstage instance where uair is safer than nair, bair, fair.
Explain to me one offstage instance where uair is safer than nair, bair, fair.