Moves that need Buffing or Re-Working to be viable

[Bent 00]

Ideally, I think every move in a character's moveset should be useful in some way, enough so that each move is the best option to use in at least one scenario. However, this is not the case; there are currently a good many moves that are always outclassed by other moves, or have too much risk and too little reward to be worth using.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss those sad moves, and try to think of ways to improve them.

I'll start with my mains...

Captain Falcon:
As you might expect, all of the Captain's moves are worth Showing. D-Tilt is the least useful, but it's not bad. The only move of Falcon's that people didn't like was the Rapid Jab AAA combo, and it was removed. The only change I'd like to see added to Falcon is invincibility on his Instant Falcon Punch.

Ganondorf:
For me, Warlock Punch lost a lot of its appeal when its cancel was removed. Flying Warlock Punches and Flying Gandoukens are almost always guaranteed suicide moves now. I'm working on making Warlock Punch useful and fun again...

Zelda:
Ranged D-Tilt is outclassed by Zelda's other ranged moves. Both ranged D-Tilt and ranged Dash Attack need Buffing or re-working in my opinion; they were Nerfed too hard in Minus 3.5.

Ike:
No Sympathy Mode (especially Flourish) needs work, and Kienamaru is on it. He's going to make regular Counter available in N.S.M.. I think Eruption should exist separately from N.S.M. as well, and be storable once again. Lastly, I believe N.S.M. should be a choice, not an automatic thing.

I'll post more as I think of them. Now, what moves do you think need Buffing or re-working?

 

[13131]

i agree with the zelda d-tilt being too close. flourish is too good to be lethal at marth range, sloppy (but beautiful) as it is..

 

[Pin Clock]

Falcon's charge punch is viable by the sheer fact that it is usable in combos. giving it invulnerability would break the move beyond belief as it would not only completely outclass the normal punch, but go from "option he has" to "necessity to have at all times" since it's almost as strong as Ike's old counter-eruption, except worse since it's on a speedy character.

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch Cancel being removed has been addressed many times. Why should an OHKO move have a cancel on it ever? Why should it be free of any endlag? Its functionality has been fixed so the cancel no longer even needs to be there as a crutch.

Zelda's ranged dTilt is in the process of being addressed, but prior it was simply way too safe and way too free of a spike. Think Leaf Storm but sending people directly downwards.

Ike's No Sympathy Mode is being addressed and reworked in various different ways.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Captain Falcon:
The only change I'd like to see added to Falcon is invincibility on his Instant Falcon Punch.

You've officially lost all hope of me taking this thread seriously...

No, im just kidding.

I take everyone seriously. The punch ITSELF was a reward for getting off the ultrataunt. You should not EVER have a reason to say it needs invincibility. No taunt in the entire game offers that much reward from a single ultrataunt without Huge omega crazy risk.

Your telling me that you want his already beefed up, blazing fast, Super strong, Falcon pawnch to have invincibility? That would literally take away any counterplay to him getting off an ultrataunt. The only thing you can do is say "well better run the hell away or he will trade with one of my moves and falcon pawnch me with his invincibility"

 

[NEWB]

I was very surprised you brought that up bent. It's not getting invincibility, but maybe you should at least explain...

Game and Watch has bad throws in terms of minus. None of them garauntee a combo like most characters and other than down throw, they all serve roughly the same function.

People have said that Mario's grounded firebrand is also useless.

Charizard apparently has no business doing throws other than dthrow. Or was that changed?

 

[Bent 00]

I didn't put a lot of thought into the Invincible Instant Falcon Punch statement. I just find that the Instant Falcon Punch gets interrupted rather often, and figured that something that you can only charge up between K.O.s shouldn't be so easy to neutralize; I think Falcon's target should have to bait it out and dodge it, rather than knock Falcon out of it. To be clear, I don't think Falcon NEEDS any Buffs right now, but that is a Buff I'd like to see. Maybe not Invincibility; Super Armor or Heavy Armor would suffice. As long as the Instant Falcon Punch is not getting neutralized by weak or medium-strength attacks...

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch Cancel being removed has been addressed many times. Why should an OHKO move have a cancel on it ever? Why should it be free of any endlag? Its functionality has been fixed so the cancel no longer even needs to be there as a crutch.

I've tried explaining why I think 'Dorf's current Warlock Punch setup is not as good as it could be. I'm tired of debating it, so now I'm working on fixing it myself. I'm almost done with a tweaked Warlock Punch setup that I think will be useful and fun to use. I'll post it for others to try when I finish it.

On a different note, is there a use for Ike's D-Throw? His other throws seem better.

 

[Pin Clock]

Warlock Punch isn't supposed to set up into anything. You're supposed to set up into Warlock Punch. It's just supposed to be an instant KO that's really cool when it happens. It can also shoot suns out from Ganon's elbow if you hold B, and that can lead into combos. That's all it does, and all it should do.

 

[Bent 00]

I think it has much more potential than being just a slow, predictable, and punishable O.H.K.O. move.

Offstage Warlock Punches and Gandoukens being guaranteed suicide moves is wasted potential...

I hate guaranteed suicide moves that aren't likely to score a K.O. in return. What's the point?

 

[NEWB]

Ah. I see what you meant about giving instant pawnch invincibility, but the point is that that move is used as a combo finisher. It's not some thing that you just throw out without setting up. Safe that for flying normal falcon pawnchs.

I guess Ganon's punch is for high risk and high reward. I have never had an issue and others haven't been bothered by this because Ganon doesn't really need any buffs right now. And since hacks are a thing, you can pretty much see potential in any move ya want by the way.

 

[Bent 00]

And since hacks are a thing, you can pretty much see potential in any move ya want by the way.

Yes, but can you name any other move in Minus that is almost always a suicide move, yet is unlikely to K.O. anyone?

 

[Pin Clock]

Why would you use Warlock Punch or Gandouken off-stage? It's an on-stage tool. Off-stage your goal is to send them downwards as much as you can, not so much go for a move designed for style. If you want something consistent, go for dAir, Flame Chokes, or Wiz Kicks. Wiz Kick I personally recommend.

 

[Glyph]

Besides, landing an offstage punch wouldn't be even to your credit. It would only mean your opponent was like, impossibly bad at the game. There's no recovery in the game that can't adjust to ganon flying in a straight line before that wind-up ends.

Lets just put a cancel on the end of Ike's fsmash because that will be better than not having a cancel. That way you can bait people in by using a really strong move and the punish them for expecting you to be vulnerable.

 

[Kien]

I didn't put a lot of thought into the Invincible Instant Falcon Punch statement.I think Falcon's target should have to bait it out and dodge it, rather than knock Falcon out of it.

No... you didn't.
You tend to talk about baiting with things not meant to bait. The move is a combo finisher, not something you try to dodge someone with and then nail them with it. Giving someone a powerful move that HAS to be dodged and also comes out pretty fast is just plain unfair.

I mean if we were gonna allow everyone to bait with their strongest attacks, I guess Link should get a cancel on his Great Spin charge. So I can fakeout. Or give TL an attack cancel on his Hurricane spin so I can chop you up and finish with an upsmash. Who needs drawbacks anyway?

 

[Sammi-husky]

Bent, not everything in the game should be useful. It should be situational. It adds dversity. if you make everything useful in at least 1 situation your SPOON FEEDING the players of the game. What makes smash so great is that combo's are made on the fly, things are figured out and applied in the situation as they see fit. Not DESIGNED to be that way.

If we design the game so that nearly every move is useful in one situation (which by the way, every move is. The payoff is what is changes) then it wouldn't incite players to try new things, to innovate, to discover and create new things that even we didn't know about. It's not our jobs as devs to play the game for you, or develop the game to play itself for you. Leave that for marvel.

If you want to try and ganon punch someone flying in the air while your coming back to stage, then accept the fact that your risking suicide. Thats how it should be, its how it was designed and how it is going to stay. You've already given many reasons to give the cancel back, and more then anything we've already put our foot down and said it's not coming back. Saying that you want it back so you can try to bait people IN THE AIR WITH GANON PUNCH AND SURVIVE is not a good reason, your other reasons were more compelling then this one to be honest.

Im sorry, but the cancel is not coming back. It doesn't belong there, ganon doesn't need an ohko move with a cancel on it, you should NOT be able to reliably survive starting up ganon punch and flying towards the stage with either one of 3 results. 1.) hit the opponent and STILL SURVIVE. 2.) scare them away from you allowing freely to get back to the stage. or 3.) faking them out and instead using gandouken which would catch them in the air, allowing them for setups and combos which would likely lead to death.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

lol

Bent, not everything in the game should be useful. It should be situational. It adds dversity. if you make everything useful in at least 1 situation your SPOON FEEDING the players of the game. What makes smash so great is that combo's are made on the fly, things are figured out and applied in the situation as they see fit. Not DESIGNED to be that way.

If we design the game so that nearly every move is useful in one situation (which by the way, every move is. The payoff is what is changes) then it wouldn't incite players to try new things, to innovate, to discover and create new things that even we didn't know about. It's not our jobs as devs to play the game for you, or develop the game to play itself for you. Leave that for marvel.

If you want to try and ganon punch someone flying in the air while your coming back to stage, then accept the fact that your risking suicide. Thats how it should be, its how it was designed and how it is going to stay. You've already given many reasons to give the cancel back, and more then anything we've already put our foot down and said it's not coming back. Saying that you want it back so you can try to bait people IN THE AIR WITH GANON PUNCH AND SURVIVE is not a good reason, your other reasons were more compelling then this one to be honest.

Im sorry, but the cancel is not coming back. It doesn't belong there, ganon doesn't need an ohko move with a cancel on it, you should NOT be able to reliably survive starting up ganon punch and flying towards the stage with either one of 3 results. 1.) hit the opponent and STILL SURVIVE. 2.) scare them away from you allowing freely to get back to the stage. or 3.) faking them out and instead using gandouken which would catch them in the air, allowing them for setups and combos which would likely lead to death.

had to quote to tell you you're very wrong about marvel. that game's ENITRE series was known for being a infinte, buggy, glitchy, busted up, unbalanced, super freedom-based game that was broken beyond belief.

 

[Sammi-husky]

This is not the place nor time to discuss marvel, this is about smash. I will say that i was referring to the fact that it has set moves with set combos. Though very much to a smaller degree then most other fighters, and advanced techniques surfaced that changed the set combos. However the game was still DESIGNED to have set combos with set inputs. Just like street fighter and mortal kombat.

I do not wish to discuss other fighters here, i simply used it as an example.

EDIT: In case your wondering, i do keep up on the marvel metagame. No need to try and explain it to me

 

[Bent 00]

It's possible to make moves behave very differently in the air than they do on the ground, and Warlock Punch is basically unusable offstage -- I see an opportunity to make the aerial version useful by making it functionally different.

At this point, I don't expect anyone to agree with my thoughts on 'Dorf, so his changes I'm mentioning aren't official requests. Please ignore them if you don't like them.

Would offstage Gandouken be overpowered if 'Dorf could cancel out of it late in the move?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This is not the place nor time to discuss marvel, this is about smash. I will say that i was referring to the fact that it has set moves with set combos. Though very much to a smaller degree then most other fighters, and advanced techniques surfaced that changed the set combos. However the game was still DESIGNED to have set combos with set inputs. Just like street fighter and mortal kombat.

I do not wish to discuss other fighters here, i simply used it as an example.

EDIT: In case your wondering, i do keep up on the marvel metagame. No need to try and explain it to me

i was just sayin, though probably should had just PM you if anything.


Back on topic, i have no coment here. all of the cast feel really good, and my main (squirtle) don't really need buffs.

 

[NEWB]

Ok, I think I her you bent. You are strictly talking about his punch in the air. The thing about this move is that people will use the punch in the air and use it when they land on the ground. I don't think anyone wants to lose that option in favor of a more functional move when that move functions fine. You physically can't make a move with that much startup be useful in the air unless you halt momentum, which makes the former not usable.

How come you want the air punch to score kills when his dair, fair, wiz kick, flame choke, and dark dive are all aerial options that already score skills? Just curious.

I take it you would also want dk to have a real air downb, right? I kinda would too.

 

[The Concept]

Question : Sheik's whip. Can I get some tips or a change in ground SideB?

 

[NEWB]

That's another big one. I have no input on it though. Sorry.

 

[Thor]

Probably a million times too good, but is it wrong to want Samus's bombs to explode on shield/contact by opponent? I don't think they explode on contact with an opponent, and I think that would be awesome if they did... if they do, then never mind this.

Falco's uthrow is COMPLETE garbage at this point - literally should NEVER be used - Falco's b and dthrows are his best, but you can easily DI bthrow lasers and dthrow doesn't have guaranteed followups at higher percents, leaving Falco as one of the only characters without a guaranteed throw combo... I vote for making a new uthrow animation without lasers as either a KOing throw (like, not MK or Kirby strong, but KOs well at like 120% or so... maybe earlier if that's fair but it doesn't have to be as good as Kirby's) or a throw with very very low knockback scaling to set up into an aerial. Or else someone explain a fully guaranteed dthrow follow-up to me, as I haven't found one and I don't recall Owo getting any repeat follow-ups beyond 60% or so [and maybe sooner, would have to go test]. I'd have to check, but I recall Falco fthrow not KOing at like 150% in the ditto on the edge of Smashville - small KBG buff there perhaps [maybe - I might be mistaken in my memory of that, was one of several matches]?

Sheik's chain does need a fix - I at least vote for less lag in air (maybe then she can get under FD? She and Bowser still can't... but I'm okay with Bowser's recovery being meh since he's so large and his Fortress has so much range and damage).

Pichu should be changed to getting 2 electro-mines (neutral+B) that NEVER dissipate [placing a third causes the first to disappear] - as is they're just not useful unless you have an immediate setup, which doesn't feel that often - and Charizard gets 3 huge rock things whenever he wants... for no damage...

Pikachu (and maybe Pichu) probably deserve bthrows at least as good as Lucario's, but that's an opinion thing.

Less endlag on Kirby nair maybe?

If Luigi dash-attack can be CC-shielded, fix that (CC reduces hitstun by 33%, at least in Brawl).

All I can think of for now...

 

[The Concept]

What is so important about going under FD

 

[Darxmarx]

Less endlag on Kirby nair maybe?

In my opinion, Kirby's nair is just fine as it is. It has good damage, functioning like Dr. Mario's sex kick from Melee, and the endlag on it is pretty short.

Also, I like the fact that the first thing I mention on this thread involves Kirby.

 

[Pin Clock]

Falco uThrow stuff

I would just like to address this one, since it's a problem that seems like it shouldn't even exist to those unaware of how Brawl works.

Basically, because Brawl is Brawl, they decided to make the knockback for Falco's uThrow and bThrow go off of the exact same value. As in, if uThrow is edited, then bThrow is automatically edited as well since they are one and the same, the only difference being animations and lasers. Therefore, if we fixed uThrow, bThrow would become garbage, and we surely don't want that. We would have to have a fix on not only uThrow's animation, but also uThrow's laser timing, so the slow lasers may connect properly.