Custom Warlock Punch

[Bent 00]

This thread started out as a way to get the Warlock Punch Cancel back. However, once that was accomplished (for unofficial use), I made a couple of other versions of W.P. that are more balanced. Rather than leave the original, outdated post up top, I'm going to list my officially released mods here, for the convenience of anyone interested.

Here they are, in order of release; from oldest to newest:

Spoiler: Cancellable Warlock Punch v1.0

I have made some interesting changes to 3.5 'Dorf:

Grounded Warlock Punch
- Warlock Punch is now Cancellable into anything immediately after the hitbox comes out.
- Damage reduced from 666 to 66.
- Knockback Growth reduced from 100 to 50.
Warlock Punch remains a very deadly move, but non-lightweight characters with low damage can survive it now. The move is still punishable, but not ridiculously so; either catch Ganondorf as he's winding up the Punch, or predict what he Cancels into and punish that.

Grounded Gandouken
- Unchanged from Minus 3.5.

Aerial ("Flying") Warlock Punch
- Now Cancellable into anything immediately after the hitbox comes out.
- Damage reduced from 666 to 66.
- Knockback Growth reduced from 100 to 50.
- Flub hitboxes added after strong hitbox. 10 damage, 10 Base Knockback, 100 Knockback Growth.
- Momentum changed: Vertical Velocity increased, Horizontal Velocity decreased.
Flying Warlock Punch is now a versatile, powerful offstage move instead of a guaranteed suicide. Ganondorf pops up and forward a bit now; you can use this offstage to approach and recover. If you reverse the Warlock Punch, 'Dorf will pop up and forward at a higher velocity -- try Cancelling the Punch into an aerial immediately for a big leap!

Aerial Gandouken
- Now Cancellable at Frame 100
No longer a guaranteed suicide move, Gandouken can be safely used offstage to catch airborne opponents. Ganondorf can jump out of the move, follow up with an aerial, and still return to the stage. Cancelled Flame Choke and Dark Dive are especially stylish followups.

I believe these tweaks make Ganondorf better without making him too overpowered. The new aerial Warlock Punch physics have changed the move from something you'd never want to use into something awesome that you'll use often. The Warlock Punch Cancel gives 'Dorf some much-needed flexibility, offstage mobility, and the ability to fake out his foes.

Download link: Cancellable Warlock Punch v1.0

This works in Brawl- 3.5 and 3.Q.

Spoiler: Safe Flying Warlock Punch v1.0

I didn't think that my last custom version of Warlock Punch was that overpowered, but Glyph made a good argument against it via a PM, and I still want to make an improved version of the Punch that everyone likes.

Basically, no more Cancels; the only change from 3.5 is that Warlock Punch and Gandouken are usable offstage without suiciding now!

Grounded Warlock Punch
- Reverted back to Minus 3.5.
The Cancel has been removed once again, since that seemed to be the main thing those opposed to my changes didn't like. Ganondorf loses his mixup game and the ability to fake out his foes, but at least he gets his full-power 666% O.H.K.O. back.

Grounded Gandouken
- Unchanged from Minus 3.5.

Aerial ("Flying") Warlock Punch
- No longer Cancellable.
- Damage reverted to 666 from 66.
- Knockback Growth reverted to 100 from 50.
- Flub hitboxes after strong hitbox remain. 20 damage, 10 Base Knockback, 100 Knockback Growth.
- Momentum unchanged from WPC v1.0.
Flying Warlock Punch remains a versatile, powerful offstage move instead of a guaranteed suicide. Ganondorf pops up and forward a bit now; you can use this offstage to approach and recover. If you reverse the Warlock Punch, 'Dorf will pop up and forward at a higher velocity. It can't be Cancelled anymore, but it's still safe to attempt a Flying Warlock Punch. Try to catch your foe in a Gandouken, then follow up with a Punch! 'Dorf will be able to make it back to the stage with little trouble.

Aerial Gandouken
- No longer Cancellable
- Momentum changed from WPC 1.0: Vertical Velocity decreased, Horizontal Velocity decreased.
No longer a guaranteed suicide move, Gandouken can be safely used offstage to catch airborne opponents. Ganondorf cannot Cancel the move anymore, but he can still make it back to the stage after using it offstage. 'Dorf can't follow up with his aerials nearly as well as he could in CWP v1.0, but he can still combo into Dark Dive. It's risky though!

This time around, my focus was just making the offstage Warlock Punch a useful, fun move, instead of a guaranteed suicide that isn't even likely to K.O.. Once again, I believe these tweaks make Ganondorf better without making him too overpowered.

Download link: Safe Flying Warlock Punch v1.0

This works in Brawl- 3.5 and 3.Q.

Spoiler: Safe Offstage Warlock Punch v0.5b and v0.7b

This is a mod of the Ganondorf from Kien's Custom Build -- which is what's going into 4.0 AFAIK -- with only the following changes:

- Warlock Punch and Gandouken are no longer suicidal offstage. This was achieved by increasing vertical momentum to 1.5 from 0
- Added 5% damage-based armor to Neutral B, active frames 2-72 (there is a version without this)

That's about as minimal as it gets. Ganondorf doesn't drop to his doom like a dumb rock whenever he goes for an Offstage Warlock Punch.

The momentum boost was toned way down from what it was in SFWP; 'Dorf merely stalls in the air as he Punches now, instead of Flying upwards and forwards. The Flub Hitboxes are gone too. Only the 2-frame 666% O.H.K.O. remains.

Download link: Safe Offstage Warlock Punch v0.5b

================
SOWP v0.7b UPDATE
================

At Kienamaru's suggestion, I've made a small update that boosts Ganondorf's damage-based armor on Warlock Punch from 5% to 7%. The SOWPv0.5b files are also included for comparison.

Download link: Safe Offstage Warlock Punch v0.7b

These both work in Brawl- 3.Q.

Keep in mind that these are for unofficial use only. The Brawl Minus developers have decided they do not like the idea of Warlock Punch being safe to use offstage, and they do not want to see any advocation for it being included in an official build. Don't even talk about it outside of this thread, or you're asking for trouble. :/ Feel free to discuss it (for private use) in here, though!

Please ignore the poll.

Spoiler: original (outdated) post

Devs: I know you're against this, so I'm NOT asking you to bring back Warlock Punch's Cancel in the next version of Minus here.

This thread is for making a custom offshoot of 3.5 Ganondorf for use by my local group and anyone else who misses the Cancel. Our 'Dorf mains like the Warlock Punch Cancel (W.P.C.) too much to give it up.

I'd like some feedback on which version of the W.P.C. should be used, out of these options:

I.) Complex: Both versions of W.P. available via different timing of "B"
II.) Simple: Trade Uncancellable O.H.K.O. for Cancellable vBrawl Warlock Punch
III.) Taunt-Switched Modes: Side Taunt switches between Cancellable vBrawl W.P. and U.C. O.H.K.O.
IV.) Taunt Power Up: Cancellable vBrawl W.P. is default; Side Taunt switches to U.C. O.H.K.O. for one use.
V.) Taunt Power Down: U.C. O.H.K.O. is default; Side Taunt makes next W.P. Cancellable vBrawl W.P.
VI.) Taunt Gives Cancel: U.C. OH.K.O. is default; Side Taunt makes the next O.H.K.O. W.P. Cancellable
VII.) Aerial Cancel Only: Grounded O.H.K.O. remains U.C., aerial O.H.K.O. Cancellable as it was in MAX 1.01
VIII.) Taunt-Switched Modes EX: Default Cancellable W.P. stuns, has medium damage, low knockback. Side Taunt switches to Uncancellable O.H.K.O. mode.

General Notes:
- All versions ignore shields, and are not reflectable by them.
- All versions retain the Gandouken projectile option, which is never Cancellable.
- In all Cancellable versions of Aerial Warlock Punch, the Cancel window is the same as it was in MAX 1.01.
- In all Cancellable versions of Grounded Warlock Punch, the Cancel window opens a few frames later in the move than it did in MAX 1.01 -- just enough so that an opponent who sidestep dodges the Punch has enough time to grab 'Dorf before he can react.

Detailed explanations of each version:

Spoiler: I.) Complex

Two versions of Warlock Punch in one, plus Gandouken
1.) Hold B: Uncancellable O.H.K.O. version. Instakill, but much more punishable.
2.) Tap B: Cancellable version, but much weaker (vBrawl damage and knockback).
Gandouken: Tap B (LET GO OF B), then have B held when the W.P. fires; Uncancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch will only trigger if B is held the ENTIRE windup time.

The two could be differentiated by graphics (faint purple flashing on full-power version, perhaps) and/or SFX (different voice clips, etc.).

Spoiler: II.) Simple

Warlock Punch becomes Cancellable once again, but it now deals vBrawl levels of damage and knockback. Ganondorf no longer has a guaranteed O.H.K.O. move.

Spoiler: III.) Taunt-Switched Modes

Side Taunt switches between default Cancellable vBrawl-strength Warlock Punch and Uncancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch.

Spoiler: IV.) Taunt Power Up

Cancellable vBrawl-strength Warlock Punch is default; Side Taunt switches to Uncancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch for one use.

Spoiler: V.) Taunt Power Down

Uncancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch is default; Side Taunt switches to Cancellable vBrawl-strength Warlock Punch for one use.

Spoiler: VI.) Taunt Gives Cancel

Uncancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch is default; Side Taunt makes the next O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch Cancellable, like it was in MAX 1.01 (except it ignores shields now).

Spoiler: VII.) Aerial Cancel Only

Grounded O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch remains Uncancellable, while Aerial O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch regains its MAX 1.01 Cancel.

Spoiler: VIII.) Taunt-Switched Modes EX

Default Cancellable Warlock Punch is no longer a kill move; it sets up other moves instead. It retains the same animation and hitbox, but it now deals only moderate (I'm thinking 15-20%) damage, and it stuns victims for about 2 seconds (like Ike's No Sympathy Mode Counter did in MAX 1.01) instead of launching them far away. While his foe is stunned, Ganondorf can follow up with any move except Up Tilt or another Warlock Punch; the stun effect will wear off of the opponent before those moves can complete. If Ganondorf lets the stun effect wear off, the opponent will be popped up in the air a short distance. This distance is constant; it does not change based on damage. The victim can influence his or her trajectory with D.I., but Ganondorf can follow up with an aerial attack if he predicts this.

If two Ganondorf players coordinate perfectly, they can team up and keep using this version of Cancellable Warlock Punch to keep a single opponent locked in stun while piling on damage.

Side Taunt switches to Uncancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch mode and back.

Version VIII is my newest idea for bringing back the W.P.C., and I really like the sound of it. I also like Versions I, III, and IV a lot.

Please vote for which ones you like the best, and post feedback. If you'd like to help bring back the W.P.C., let me know -- I currently know very little of PSA, so your assistance would be appreciated. If you're against bringing back the W.P.C., this isn't the place to say so.

Reasons why I want the W.P.C. to return? Read this thread. I want it to return because it allowed Ganondorf to do several things he can't do without it...

Bait & Punish Playstyle and Mixup Tool

With the Brawl Minus MAX 3.3 update, Ganondorf has lost his best (and only) fakeout and mixup move, a vital tool for an entire style of playing him: Bait and Punish. Since he has lost the ability to cancel Warlock Punch into something unpredictable, he can no longer punish foes who easily evade the attack. Now he's just wide-open for a beating whenever he misses with Warlock Punch, so this move will rarely be used anymore. Before, it was a challenge for both Ganondorf and his foe to see who would take advantage of a missed Punch -- but now, a decent opponent will always come out on top. Ganondorf was a predictable and easy-to-punish character even before the cancel was removed from Warlock Punch; now he's even more so. Having the Punch power through shields isn't a fair tradeoff because no good player would try to shield it. Anything less than a perfect shield would usually result in trading stocks, so sidestep dodging then punishing was always the better option. Besides that, there's already an unblockable super punch, Falcon's PAWNCH. The cancel and the pressure it created made Warlock Punch a unique and fun move to use, and one worth using often. Now it's just a slow, instant-kill Falcon Punch that is too punishable to ever be reliable in a serious match.

Ganondorf is now too easy to read and punish with these changes. He can't effectively bait anymore without the ability to punish afterward.

I know that its likelihood of hitting hasn't changed. What has changed is how likely you are to get punished for using Warlock Punch.

In MAX 1.01 it was like this:

> Opponent coming your way? Need a mixup to throw them off 'Dorf's otherwise predictable game?
> Jump away and reverse a Warlock Punch in midair. Reversing the Punch allows you to control your trajectory.
> Control where you land to try and Punch your opponent if they continue to approach.
> If you think you're unlikely to land the Punch, cancel it into...
--- Gandouken (if your foe is a good distance in front of you),
--- Up Smash or Up B (if your foe is jumping over you),
--- reverse F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Tilt, or D-Tilt (if your foe is rolling behind you),
--- Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke (if your foe is close, but out of range of the Punch, or they are good enough to predict and punish you if you Punch),
--- jab, followed up by another attack (if your other attack options are too slow), or
--- shield, spot dodge, or roll (if an attack is coming and will beat any attack you could cancel into).

In MAX 3.3 it's like this:

> Opponent still alive?
> Better not use Warlock Punch unless (s)he's stunned/defenseless, or you'll most likely miss and take a beating.

Flying Warlock Punch
It's impractical, and very obvious, but it's fun and very satisfying to land. The cancel allowed Ganondorf to survive and return to the stage; without it, the F.W.P. is always a guaranteed suicide move. This issue could be fixed by itself simply by giving only the aerial version of W.P. its cancel back. This would not bring 'Dorf getting reflected by shields back into the game; the aerial W.P. never had that problem.

Even if the current un-cancellable Warlock Punch healed Ganondorf completely on-hit, what good would it be if it will never land in a serious match? It's practically a joke move at this point, and I think all main Smashes and Specials (every non-taunt move, ideally) should be useful in some way.

If Warlock Punch has to be nerfed, I would rather see its power level reduced to just above that of a Falcon Punch, than to have its cancel remain absent. At least then it would be safe to attempt it more often. The cancel made Warlock Punch into such a unique and fun move to use. I wouldn't mind if the cancel window began a few (1-5 or so) frames later than it does in MAX 1.01, either -- a foe who sidesteps a Warlock Punch should be able to grab 'Dorf before he can react. "But Warlock Punch being an instakill, 666% damage attack is too iconic to minus", you say? If this suggestion was taken, it would still K.O. more often than not on-hit, and the move would become much more useful and less stupidly punishable.

NOTICE: This is not for discussing the Warlock Punch Cancel for official versions of Brawl Minus, just this custom build.

 

[Bent 00]

By the way, if anyone thinks that bringing the damage and knockback down to vBrawl levels isn't enough of a price to pay to get the Cancel back, think of the Versions that mention this as having their damage and knockback levels brought down to whatever level is fair.

 

[Glyph]

Moved to Off-Topic since its not pertaining to the BRoom released versions

 

[Bent 00]

Fair enough.

 

[NEWB]

I'm not sure one is possible, but what do I know about input windows.

Vbrawl warlock punch seems like a fair trade for getting the cancel back. I would rather have weak cancelable or strong no cancelable, for consistency.

Honestly, may as well make aerial punch cancelable, as it is very impractical. Or just less endlag?

Your new idea for a rework, 8, is totally your call. Still don't like him having both versions though. I would prefer the taunt powering up the punch to give it the cancel back with epic animations if that is your route.

 

[Kien]

VI.) Taunt Gives Cancel: U.C. OH.K.O. is default; Side Taunt makes the next O.H.K.O. W.P. Cancellable
VII.) Aerial Cancel Only: Grounded O.H.K.O. remains U.C., aerial O.H.K.O. Cancellable as it was in MAX 1.01

These seem to be the only ones even considerable. I still don't know why anyone would try to warlock punch off stage though.

 

[Bent 00]

VI.) Taunt Gives Cancel: U.C. OH.K.O. is default; Side Taunt makes the next O.H.K.O. W.P. Cancellable
VII.) Aerial Cancel Only: Grounded O.H.K.O. remains U.C., aerial O.H.K.O. Cancellable as it was in MAX 1.01

These seem to be the only ones even considerable.

Why do you think the other options aren't worth considering?

Why does the dev team insist on Warlock Punch being a very hard to land O.H.K.O.? It would be much more useful as a weaker, cancellable punch.

I still don't know why anyone would try to warlock punch off stage though.

"It's impractical, and very obvious, but it's fun and very satisfying to land."

Not everything has to be "serious business". Some things are just for fun.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I honestly think a better question here is, why do you insist that the cancel makes or breaks Dorf? Why should he lose an amazing kill tool for the sake of baits that will never work on anyone? What exactly is the benefit of weakening for a cancel over a guaranteed kill if it hits in either situation? You might as well just make it a completely different move.

 

[Lightning]

Why does the dev team insist on Warlock Punch being a very hard to land O.H.K.O.? It would be much more useful as a weaker, cancellable punch.

Why would you not get punished for using the most powerful, instant kill move in the game? It makes no sense to throw out warlock punches like it's confetti.

 

[Kien]

Why would you not get punished for using the most powerful, instant kill move in the game? It makes no sense to throw out warlock punches like it's confetti.

Now I think I'm going to make a joke PSA where Ganon has his cancel and shoots out confetti every time you do it.

 

[Kien]

Why do you think the other options aren't worth considering?

Why does the dev team insist on Warlock Punch being a very hard to land O.H.K.O.? It would be much more useful as a weaker, cancellable punch.


"It's impractical, and very obvious, but it's fun and very satisfying to land."

Not everything has to be "serious business". Some things are just for fun.

Because they're ridiculous and game breaking. Not only that, but they also make the Falcon and Warlock punches pretty much the same thing.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Now I think I'm going to make a joke PSA where Ganon has his cancel and shoots out confetti every time you do it.

Please make this a thing. Even if it's like some whacky taunt thing or some obscure button combo.
I just want this to BE.

 

[Lightning]

Now I think I'm going to make a joke PSA where Ganon has his cancel and shoots out confetti every time you do it.

DO IT.

Spoiler

Bonus: If you upload it to Brawl Vault and make it somewhat balanced, I'll feature it on their blog.

 

[Bent 00]

I honestly think a better question here is, why do you insist that the cancel makes or breaks Dorf?

I never said the W.P.C. "makes or breaks" 'Dorf. It was more useful in MAX 1.01, and I want to see that utility restored.

Why should he lose an amazing kill tool for the sake of baits that will never work on anyone? What exactly is the benefit of weakening for a cancel over a guaranteed kill if it hits in either situation? You might as well just make it a completely different move.

Warlock Punch's Cancel made it more versatile, interesting, and fun IMO. It's been too predictable and boring since 3.3.

Why would you not get punished for using the most powerful, instant kill move in the game? It makes no sense to throw out warlock punches like it's confetti.

Did you even read my first post? None of the O.H.K.O. versions would be Cancellable (except VI, which requires you to Side Taunt for it each time), and the Cancellable versions would all be weakened as a trade-off for getting the Cancel back.

 

[Lightning]

Did you even read my first post? None of the O.H.K.O. versions would be Cancellable (except VI, which requires you to Side Taunt for it each time), and the Cancellable versions would all be weakened as a trade-off for getting the Cancel back.

I was simply talking about 1.01 Ganondorf..
And yes, I did. It was very detailed.

 

[Bent 00]

I was simply talking about 1.01 Ganondorf..
And yes, I did. It was very detailed.

If you did read it, then why would you ask that about the MAX 1.01 version of Warlock Punch? It should be obvious that I don't want to bring that exact version back; I want to restore the useful Cancel it had, while keeping the new version balanced.

You three are being rude now, come on. I created this topic to bring back a part of Minus my group liked, that was removed. I said in the first post, "If you're against bringing back the W.P.C., this isn't the place to say so". I did ask Kienamaru for his reasons against including the W.P.C. in Minus officially, but I didn't ask for any of you to poke fun at this subject. I've put a lot of thought into this; it's important to me. If you can't respect that, then don't post in here.

That said, confetti on a very obscure button combo would be kinda funny. Like the Joker's "BANG!" flag joke pistol.

Spoiler

 

[Kien]

You could learn how to PSA the move back... it wouldn't take more than 5 minutes tops for anyone who has even the slightest idea how to do it. For someone just starting to learn it you'd still be able to copy paste or just duplicate what you see in like.. 15 or less.

 

[Lightning]

I have every right to post my opinion.

The warlock cancel may be useful to you, but it's not balanced. It's over-powered and unfair. That's why I made my post.

Why would you not get punished for using the most powerful, instant kill move in the game? It makes no sense to throw out warlock punches like it's confetti.

Do you honestly think it's fair for someone who isn't playing Ganondorf to have an instant kill move thrown at you without being able to punish it? Seriously, I know you and your group love 1.01 Ganondorf, but he was not balanced. I think he was broken and I'm 100% with the Brawl Minus Team for removing the warlock punch cancel and making it ignore shields instead. You shouldn't be able to cancel the most powerful move in Minus.

 

[Bent 00]

You could learn how to PSA the move back... it wouldn't take more than 5 minutes tops for anyone who has even the slightest idea how to do it. For someone just starting to learn it you'd still be able to copy paste or just duplicate what you see in like.. 15 or less.

Care to recommend any specific tutorials for a PSA newbie? I work full-time, so I haven't had time to find any myself yet.

I have every right to post my opinion.

The warlock cancel may be useful to you, but it's not balanced. It's over-powered and unfair. That's why I made my post.

Do you honestly think it's fair for someone who isn't playing Ganondorf to have an instant kill move thrown at you without being able to punish it? Seriously, I know you and your group love 1.01 Ganondorf, but he was not balanced. I think he was broken and I'm 100% with the Brawl Minus Team for removing the warlock punch cancel and making it ignore shields instead. You shouldn't be able to cancel the most powerful move in Minus.

Lightning... I'll say it again:

None of the O.H.K.O. versions [of Warlock Punch which I have proposed in the first post of thie thread] would be Cancellable (except VI, which requires you to Side Taunt for [the single Cancel] each time), and the Cancellable versions would all be [severely] weakened as a trade-off for getting the Cancel back.

It should be obvious that I don't want to bring that exact version back; I want to restore the useful Cancel it had, while keeping the new version balanced.

There was no reason to bring up why the MAX 1.01 Warlock Punch shouldn't be Cancellable, since that's not the exact version I want to bring back. I agree that no O.H.K.O. should be as safe to spam as the MAX 1.01 Cancellable Warlock Punch was. I want to restore the Cancel to 3.5 Warlock Punch while keeping it balanced. ALL of the different versions I proposed in the first post are attempts at organizing the balanced return of the W.P.C..

 

[NEWB]

He said that this is only for his play group too. There shouldn't be any problem here. Nothing that couldn't be solved with private messaging and not looking ridiculous to everyone.

Bent.... Add the confetti punch to the vote..... lol

 

[Bent 00]

Because they're ridiculous and game breaking. Not only that, but they also make the Falcon and Warlock punches pretty much the same thing.

Hmm, I'm not seeing how Versions I-V and VIII are "ridiculous and game-breaking". You read the detailed descriptions of them? There's an advantage and a weakness in each one.

As for being too similar to Falcon Punch? That's a big part of the problem in the current 3.5 version!

- Both punch through shields
- Both are K.O. moves
- Both leave you wide open if you miss
- Both are very predictable
- Neither can be cancelled

Most of my proposed versions of Cancellable Warlock Punch only have the first item on that list in common with the PAWNCH.

 

[Thor]

Ya know what, I'm sick of this debate.

And after playing as and against Ganondorf, and against the cancel due to a Kirby glitch/non-update that makes Kirby have the cancel, I realized something.

If you get hit by the Punch, you deserve to die. Either your shield was broken, you missed a Rest, misspaced a super laggy move (like Falcon Punch or a current Warlock Punch), or you're not very good at dodging moves, since sweetspotting recoveries is easy and you can always run away, shoot a projectile, or just hit him.

So more likely than not, if you got hit by the Punch, you're very unlucky. If you are hit by the Punch with any regularity, you desperately need practice avoiding it or respecting it so that you don't get hit by it. If you practice and still get hit with any level of consistency, you're just bad at this game.

The cancel is a joke. Give it back, and don't nerf the Punch either - the move is still going to be unusable at any high level of play (Falco, Lucario, ROB, and Dedede can just laugh at the Punch and shoot something at Ganondorf, among numerous others), so calling it "broken and overpowered" is a gross exaggeration - it's like calling vBrawl Ike "overpowered" because people don't know what shielding and dodging are.

Also, personal opinion, Warlock Punch shouldn't be a punish to Warlock Punch (but can punish Falcon Punch, and Falcon Punches can punish each other).

So make it cancellable, ignoring shields, OHKO, with Gandouken option. We don't need this "nerf it, it's not fair like that" crap, when the move is [probably] Ganondorf's worst option anyway in nearly every situation (again, it's not when your opponent is very unlucky, gets punished for a bad whiff, has no respect, or is bad at the game).

"Oh no, a super strong move with no endlag!" And 72 frames of startup. I can (by the numbers/frame data I have) FULLY CHARGE MK DSMASH and hit with it FIRST if we each start our move at the same time - THAT'S how laggy the startup is. No endlag is only a reason it might be amusing to use at long-range, for hitting someone too eager to beat a Gandouken who also misspaces (Again, bad or unlucky or disrespecting the move), nothing more.

 

[Kien]

The problem was Thor, that the move isn't actually his worst option at all times. You can gandouken and instantly rush into it with a wizard's foot or flame choke. This let's ganon get past his own projectile before it gets to the enemy. And in the situation that you actually manage to grab someone and they get hit by it, he can KO from one gandouken followup if you know your combos. Not too many other people (none that I can think of) are able to always combo into a kill. This is the reason why Link's mortal draw was returned to suck. Even though I loved the fast one. It had like 70 frames to hit with. Pretty sure it's at 120 now.

While it is true that getting hit by the punch means you were either unlucky or playing with items or someone else who combod you into it, it's not really fair to use your strongest attack and instantly get out of it. No matter how you look at it. It's like if Link could fully charge a great spin and as soon as he hits you OR a shield, he'd be able to cancel the rest of his spins. That would be unfair. He could throw a rang instantly, or go from a move that kills at 50 with range on both sides to jumping or firing a projectile. You see what I'm getting at here?

Hmm, I'm not seeing how Versions I-V and VIII are "ridiculous and game-breaking". You read the detailed descriptions of them? There's an advantage and a weakness in each one.

As for being too similar to Falcon Punch? That's a big part of the problem in the current 3.5 version!

- Both punch through shields
- Both are K.O. moves
- Both leave you wide open if you miss
- Both are very predictable
- Neither can be cancelled

Most of my proposed versions of Cancellable Warlock Punch only have the first item on that list in common with the PAWNCH.

You could say this about all long start up attacks that aren't smashes... Whatever point you're trying to make isn't being made. The point of an instakill attack is to destroy or ignore shields if they are up, to KO someone from 0 (which Falcon punch does not, unless it was buffed hard), have punishable start and ending which makes them predictable, and canceling them is only a thing in Pikachu's case where he would kill himself guaranteed.

 

[Bent 00]

Thor, the MAX 1.01 O.H.K.O. Cancellable Warlock Punch was too safe to use, considering it was the strongest attack in the game. The only critical weakness it had was projectiles, IMO. I thought getting reflected by shields was a somewhat fun mechanic, but it wasn't enough of a drawback. A good 'Dorf would always leave room behind him to save himself with in case he got his Punch reflected.

Guaranteed O.H.K.O. moves should not be Cancellable. Pikachu's max-charge Skull Bash is the only exception.

That said, I'm tired of hearing it. I'd rather have a useful, versatile move over a O.H.K.O. that almost never hits.

You can gandouken and instantly rush into it with a wizard's foot or flame choke. This let's ganon get past his own projectile before it gets to the enemy.

Are you saying that Gandouken was Cancellable in MAX 1.01? It was not. I didn't mention this in the first post, because I consider Gandouken a separate move essentially, but NONE of the Cancellable Warlock Punch versions I proposed would also allow Gandouken to be Cancellable as well. That move has never been Cancellable, not should it be. 'Dorf can follow up into it well enough without a Cancel.

[Ganondorf] can KO from one gandouken followup if you know your combos. Not too many other people (none that I can think of) are able to always combo into a kill. This is the reason why Link's mortal draw was returned to suck. Even though I loved the fast one. It had like 70 frames to hit with. Pretty sure it's at 120 now.

It's true you can combo Gandouken into Warlock Punch if your opponent gets stuck in the projectile soon after it's fired. This isn't a guaranteed combo like Link's Gale Boomerang > fast Mortal Draw was, though; it only works occasionally.

While it is true that getting hit by the punch means you were either unlucky or playing with items or someone else who combod you into it, it's not really fair to use your strongest attack and instantly get out of it. No matter how you look at it. It's like if Link could fully charge a great spin and as soon as he hits you OR a shield, he'd be able to cancel the rest of his spins. That would be unfair. He could throw a rang instantly, or go from a move that kills at 50 with range on both sides to jumping or firing a projectile. You see what I'm getting at here?

You could say this about all long start up attacks that aren't smashes... Whatever point you're trying to make isn't being made. The point of an instakill attack is to destroy or ignore shields if they are up, to KO someone from 0 (which Falcon punch does not, unless it was buffed hard), have punishable start and ending which makes them predictable, and canceling them is only a thing in Pikachu's case where he would kill himself guaranteed.

You're repeating yourself. Yes, very strong moves should not be so safe to use. I addressed this already:

By the way, if anyone thinks that bringing the damage and knockback down to vBrawl levels isn't enough of a price to pay to get the Cancel back, think of the Versions that mention this as having their damage and knockback levels brought down to whatever level is fair.

When the Cancel returns to Warlock Punch, it will come at a price, such as a major reduction to damage and knockback.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Bent I landed a warlock punch on newb to get my RU spot and saved the replay. Is that not enough to satisfy you?