Community Request Thread for the next version after 4.0BC

[Kymaera K1ng]

I really like the collisions because it makes doubles more whacky and adds an element of strategy (I definitely let lots of stuff fly in Melee teams as Link because if a teammate hits it, they're saved, and if an enemy hits it, combo extension! While this isn't exactly the same thing, I think trying to hit teammates into each other is important and can even save your teammate if you use the right move.)

More practically, I *thoroughly* enjoy that throw animations can hit people [see Mario bthrow] and heavily suspect that removing the collisions removes that too. If so, BOO! BOO! BOO! That mechanic leads to lots of crazy and awesome moments [Marss Pugwest M2K Ally had M2K score a double limit climhazzard KO because he got hit away, Ally got a bthrow that launched both players away to nearly the same spot, and M2K nailed 'em both] and also makes throws much, much less awful in 2v1s.

Mid air collisions and throw hitboxs have nothing to do with each other. Smash four has no mid air collisions, and niether does melee, but you can still hit others with throws.

Also, if they gave wolf triple lazer that would be great. I assumed there was a big problem with it that made the dev team take it out in the first place.

 

[Thor]

Mid air collisions and throw hitboxs have nothing to do with each other. Smash four has no mid air collisions, and niether does melee, but you can still hit others with throws.

Also, if they gave wolf triple lazer that would be great. I assumed there was a big problem with it that made the dev team take it out in the first place.

IIRC each laser did 5% or something absurd like that, making it do entirely too much damage [press B for 15% and the gun hitbox up close, heh]. I think they also used to have a paralyze effect?

If each bullet did 3% with no paralyze effect, I think that would be quite fair. If 3% is too much per laser, 2.5% or 2% would still seem fine to me. If the fear is that it takes 3 moves out of the stale moves queue at once... is the freshness bonus really THAT big a deal? [Moves don't stale.]

I still find mid-air collisions hilarious for a variety of reasons [and in Melee you can crash into Fly Guys, see "Fly Guy DI"], but if you can still hit characters with other characters during the throw I'm less opposed to the removal.

Still feels Minus-y to me though, and I still feel it has a definite element of strategy that makes me overall against removing it [but not as strongly as I was in the previous post].

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

IIRC each laser did 5% or something absurd like that, making it do entirely too much damage [press B for 15% and the gun hitbox up close, heh]. I think they also used to have a paralyze effect?

If each bullet did 3% with no paralyze effect, I think that would be quite fair. If 3% is too much per laser, 2.5% or 2% would still seem fine to me. If the fear is that it takes 3 moves out of the stale moves queue at once... is the freshness bonus really THAT big a deal? [Moves don't stale.]

I still find mid-air collisions hilarious for a variety of reasons [and in Melee you can crash into Fly Guys, see "Fly Guy DI"], but if you can still hit characters with other characters during the throw I'm less opposed to the removal.

Still feels Minus-y to me though, and I still feel it has a definite element of strategy that makes me overall against removing it [but not as strongly as I was in the previous post].

the general point o want to make about lasers of that they're too unsafe right now and too rewarding before. I personally think a cancel wild be better, simply necause triple lazer would be harder to balance around. Currently, lasers arent rewarding and can be punished from spawn points on smash ville and some other stages. Para lazers would be insane.

Fly guys are a gimmick, and completely unrelated since that equally effects teams and singles. Also, removing air collisions would make team combos easier for newer players., especially with characters with not a lot of range.
One option witch I would really like is having mid air collisions affect only your teammates, not the other team. That could be hard to program tough.

Another issue I want to address is footstools. They're good in teams, but not nearly as good in singles. I suggest making them untechable like in smash 4. However, I suggest this very cautiously, since it's minus and you never really know.

 

[Thor]

the general point o want to make about lasers of that they're too unsafe right now and too rewarding before. I personally think a cancel wild be better, simply necause triple lazer would be harder to balance around. Currently, lasers arent rewarding and can be punished from spawn points on smash ville and some other stages. Para lazers would be insane.

Fly guys are a gimmick, and completely unrelated since that equally effects teams and singles. Also, removing air collisions would make team combos easier for newer players., especially with characters with not a lot of range.
One option witch I would really like is having mid air collisions affect only your teammates, not the other team. That could be hard to program tough.

Another issue I want to address is footstools. They're good in teams, but not nearly as good in singles. I suggest making them untechable like in smash 4. However, I suggest this very cautiously, since it's minus and you never really know.

Triple laser still has risk [running jumps over it]. It just does more on hit [more percent, harder to spotdodge or roll through].

I don't think making the game easier around a teams thing that's honestly not that hard to play around most of the time is a focus of the dev team. I might be wrong though.

Your solution sounds like it would be team-attack dependent.

Untechable footstools will almost certainly somehow lead to infinites. Like with Ice Climbers or something. I think footstools being techable is just fine.

 

[Bent 00]

Added:

---
Make Wolf's Blaster fire three lasers again. If they were too strong before, making them do 2% or 3% each would be a fair trade-off. [Thor]
---
Footstools are good in teams, but not in singles. I suggest making them untechable, like in Smash 4. [Kymaera K1ng]
---

I never liked having the 3-round burst on Wolf's Blaster, personally. Didn't they used to travel slowly and grow in size, too? Overkill.

I think Wolf's lasers should be about as useful as Mario's Fireballs. Two shots per use might be OK if no Cancel is added.

Speaking of lasers, anyone else feel like Falco can fire his Blaster too fast?
Considering that they Flinch and can Laser-Lock... they must be one of the best projectiles in the game, no?

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

the general point o want to make about lasers of that they're too unsafe right now and too rewarding before. I personally think a cancel wild be better, simply necause triple lazer would be harder to balance around.

Fly guys are a gimmick. Also, removing air collisions would make team combos easier for newer players.
One option witch I would really like is having mid air collisions affect only your teammates, not the other team. That could be hard to program tough.

Added:



I never liked having the 3-round burst on Wolf's Blaster, personally. Didn't they used to travel slowly and grow in size, too? Overkill.

I think Wolf's lasers should be about as useful as Mario's Fireballs. Two shots per use might be OK if no Cancel is added.

Speaking of lasers, anyone else feel like Falco can fire his Blaster too fast?
Considering that they Flinch and can Laser-Lock... they must be one of the best projectiles in the game, no?

They most certainty are a bit busted. How many falcos were at special fall again?

Anyway, Wolf's lasers were dumb to fight before and dumb to use now. I think a cancel would be better than, but if they find another way to make it work, that would be cool. Giving it a grounded jump cancel would be neat, since you'd have to wavedash out of it. That would be pretty unique, but it would be better if wolf could melee air dodge.

 

[Mimsy]

SUGGESTION: I would really appreciate if falcon's projectile immunity was brought back in his side B.
1) Falcon is victim to all characters with projectiles without it, and his side B is extremely punishable.
2) His side be is useless for combos. Since simply DI ing away grants you enough time to leave hit-stun.
3) It has become a move that I never use. I think Minus Max version was the last time projectile immunity was applied.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

SUGGESTION: I would really appreciate if falcon's projectile immunity was brought back in his side B.
1) Falcon is victim to all characters with projectiles without it, and his side B is extremely punishable.
2) His side be is useless for combos. Since simply DI ing away grants you enough time to leave hit-stun.
3) It has become a move that I never use. I think Minus Max version was the last time projectile immunity was applied.

I agree. Maybe the window could be just at the beginning of the dev team is that reluctant, but no move should be completely useless.

 

[Thor]

Added:



I never liked having the 3-round burst on Wolf's Blaster, personally. Didn't they used to travel slowly and grow in size, too? Overkill.

I think Wolf's lasers should be about as useful as Mario's Fireballs. Two shots per use might be OK if no Cancel is added.

Speaking of lasers, anyone else feel like Falco can fire his Blaster too fast?
Considering that they Flinch and can Laser-Lock... they must be one of the best projectiles in the game, no?

I seem to recall Wolf lasers not doing that [sounds like Ice Climber blocks?]. I also wouldn't want that part to return, just the fact that three fired.

Falco's blaster fire speed seems to be the same in all games. It is really good in Minus however.

SUGGESTION: I would really appreciate if falcon's projectile immunity was brought back in his side B.
1) Falcon is victim to all characters with projectiles without it, and his side B is extremely punishable.
2) His side be is useless for combos. Since simply DI ing away grants you enough time to leave hit-stun.
3) It has become a move that I never use. I think Minus Max version was the last time projectile immunity was applied.

IIRC It true combos into uair or knee on most characters at 0, and it... eventually KOs... but I'll agree that this move isn't that useful. It looks cool, but that's not related to utility [which is rather low past like 10%].

I seem to recall projectile immunity being full immunity. Perhaps 3% armor would get the job done? Would still lose to some things, but it would go through the suggested wolf lasers, Falco lasers, and a few other things.

 

[666DAMAGE]

Spoiler: narration

*sigh* what happened. I know Elliot can make better narrations than that. I realize I'll get flack for this, but I feel this should be addressed. Some of the Character selection clips sound to forced and/or don't mesh well with other lines like "The winner is...". I know it's hard to set this stuff up, but don't just turn in your first draft and expect an A, as the saying goes.

More details please!

Also I'm going to assume you mean "this game's winner is..." I emphasized "winner" because no one else ever has. One of my main goals (falco aside) was to sound totally unique from 64/melee and this line really challenged that rule. I thought it would be cool to emphasize because it's really the most important word in the phrase, a lot of arcade games get away with just saying "winner" or "you win" so I thought it played out well with that too.

If you mean that line lining up with the character names.... that just wasn't gonna happen. It never does in this sort of setup because it's all cut and paste but we actually did sort of one up the system because a lot of them match up so well there's no awkward pause between "is" and the character name on a lot of them.

I did find myself dissatisfied with some due to small issues so it's not like we're leaving it as is for the final. Expect some revisions here and there.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

I seem to recall Wolf lasers not doing that [sounds like Ice Climber blocks?]. I also wouldn't want that part to return, just the fact that three fired.

Falco's blaster fire speed seems to be the same in all games. It is really good in Minus however.


IIRC It true combos into uair or knee on most characters at 0, and it... eventually KOs... but I'll agree that this move isn't that useful. It looks cool, but that's not related to utility [which is rather low past like 10%].

I seem to recall projectile immunity being full immunity. Perhaps 3% armor would get the job done? Would still lose to some things, but it would go through the suggested wolf lasers, Falco lasers, and a few other things.

It was never full immunity. That would be so dumb. If you don't belive me, you can look at the 4.0b change-log. I think it should be projectile immune at the beggining and middle, but not have the punch at the end. It could also have a cooldown.

Also elliot, you can emphisize the pause between the "is" and shouting the chacter name in order to make it seem more natural, like in smash four. In order to compensate for the pause, just roll the audio back farther into the victory screen.

 

[ALLCAPS]

Fix his recovery mostly talking about the reversed one when you do it you just lose all your horizontal momentum this makes edge guarding with Falcon unnecessarily difficult the recovery itself is already really punishable and that small thing just makes his recovery downright awful plz fix

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Fix his recovery mostly talking about the reversed one when you do it you just lose all your horizontal momentum this makes edge guarding with Falcon unnecessarily difficult the recovery itself is already really punishable and that small thing just makes his recovery downright awful plz fix

I completely agree. I belive momentum is properly reversed for Gannon, so why not falcon?

I would also like to bring up a Lucario change. When canceling up special, he will always be facing right, regardless of the direction he was facing previously. I don't know if this is a glitch or not tbh, but regardless please fix it by making him always face forward or keep the direction he was facing previously.

 

[Neville]

I feel like double team hasn't been nerfed sufficiently. It's still a really good combo breaker on a character that's already hard to combo and is nearly impossible to punish on a whiff or shield. I think it should have the same property as Missile so when it hits a shield Lucario gets less momentum through so he can actually be punished.

 

[Farkus]

I like the new gandouken that Bent posted, I don't think it needs to be purple though, Ganon shot a lot of yellow balls in his time. What could be cool would be if it split into 8 smaller weaker and faster balls if hit by an attack like the blue balls in a Link to the past shot by Aganim...(is that how you spell it), but i dont even know if that is possible. I also think the customized nameplates would be totally awesome.

 

[Bent 00]

...no move should be completely useless.

Spoiler

I seem to recall projectile immunity being full immunity.

It was indeed full Intangibility, from frame 10 until the punch came out, on the grounded version only.

This Intangibility was removed in Brawl Minus 4.0b:

Side B
All intangibility removed.
Falcon's one weakness would normally have been considered projectiles, having immunity to them in a move was a bit much considering he already has the mobility to maneuver around them. In addition to this, it technically wasn't "projectile invulnerability" as advertised, it just made the whole motion (that stops when he comes in contact with a foe) invincible, which also allowed him to get past some disjointed hitboxes and hit the attacker as well.

Perhaps 3% armor would get the job done? Would still lose to some things, but it would go through the suggested wolf lasers, Falco lasers, and a few other things.

That would be better than nothing, but I'd recommend at least 6% damage-based armor instead of a mere 3%. Maybe even 7-10%.

Also, with damage-based armor, Raptor Boost wouldn't go through projectiles -- it would eat them, with Falcon taking the damage, but no knockback. I'd rather see full Intangibility restored, or at least Invincibility, returned to grounded Raptor Boost... especially if it is not Buffed in any other way. It's so weak now, it only deals 7% damage (!) and can't K.O. until high percents.

It was never full immunity. That would be so dumb. If you don't believe me, you can look at the 4.0b change-log. I think it should be projectile immune at the beginning and middle, but not have the punch at the end. It could also have a cooldown.

AFAIK, "immunity only to projectiles" is not possible. For phasing through projectiles, there's only Intangibility, which makes everything unable to hit you. Raptor Boost with Intangibilty wasn't dumb at all in my opinion, but the Devs deemed it unnecessary, saying "everyone should have a weakness, and getting zoned by projectiles is one of Falcon's". Also...

Spoiler: Raptor Boost without a punch at the end?!

What could be cool would be if [Energy Ball Gandouken] split into 8 smaller weaker and faster balls if hit by an attack like the blue balls in a Link to the past shot by Agahnim, but i dont even know if that is possible.

Spoiler: Closest thing to that I've seen is this...

Brawl Minus has BronzeGreekGod's permission to use Project Ganondorf...

Added the following:

Captain Falcon:

---
Raptor Boost should K.O. at 90-100%. As-is, it only deals 7% damage, and doesn't K.O. until high percents. Falcon BUFF, please! [SunderStorm]
---
Return intangibility frames to Raptor Boost, since it is so punishable and useless for combos. Falcon is too weak against projectiles! [Mimsy]
---
Please make reverse Falcon Dive grant the same amount of horizontal momentum as the non-reversed version does. Falcon's recovery is awful. [ALLCAPS]
---

Lucario:

---
Canceled ExtremeSpeed will always leave Lucario facing right, regardless of the direction it was facing previously. Please make Lucario keep the direction it was facing previously. [Kymaera K1ng]
---
Double Team hasn't been Nerfed enough. It's still a really good combo breaker on a character that's already hard to combo, and is nearly impossible to punish on a whiff or Shield. When Double Team hits a Shield, Lucario should get less momentum going through, so it can actually be punished. [Longbottom]
---

Lemme know if I missed anything, or if I worded your Request incorrectly.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

bent stop responding to me with memes...

Also, is seemingly everyone wants project ganondorf in B-, why isn't it in? does pin not like it or something?

 

[666DAMAGE]

Also elliot, you can emphisize the pause between the "is" and shouting the chacter name in order to make it seem more natural, like in smash four. In order to compensate for the pause, just roll the audio back farther into the victory screen.

Smash 4 has the graphics to back that up. In Smash 4 Minus we're definitely going to take advantage of it.

I don't think we can roll the start of the clip back any further than it is by default but that could help? Maybe?

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

If sm4sh minus becomes a thing i'm getting a wii u for sure

 

[666DAMAGE]

If sm4sh minus becomes a thing i'm getting a wii u for sure

Dude, what do you mean IF?

 

[Neville]

Dude, what do you mean IF?

I can't wait to see the magical flying Little Mac.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Time to save money I guess...

Actually do it on the NX launch of tr4sh please

 

[666DAMAGE]

Waluigi needs more dialogue and he needs to be at normal volume on Lavender Town.

 

[Pin Clock]

This is the biggest laundry list

More characters will be getting alt costumes, stay tuned later for more information.
The legal stage list has been updated, if we can take that off the list that'd be cool.
Giga Bowser/Wario Man: They sound fun and perfectly fitting for Minus. Unsure about our implementation methods but we'll figure something out.
Tone down death cries: This is actually a vBrawl function, we just supplied the removed sounds.
Project Ganondorf: We will not be taking requests for new characters, or including Bat Ness-esque transformations.
uTilt: Did you hit Falco right? Our testing confirmed Falco dies to Ganon uTilt from the center of FD at around 55%
Raptor Boost: We will look into buffing its damage for sure (7% is way too low) and possibly knockback properties, but we will not be restoring its projectile immunity or buffing its armor.
Reverse Raptor Dive Horizontal: We can make it match the normal variant.
Blast Burn in the air: Stalling him for the first use seems fair and like it could be both strategic and save lives.
Throw Combos: DK is already a monster even without a huge throw game. It is very unlikely he will get buffed in this regard.
Buff Air Speed: We feel this would be fun
MAX dThrow: dThrow Sing called, it said oh god no please
Nerf his air powers: Most of this comes from bAir, but yes Wario will receive some attention in this regard.
Power Bomb concerns: We can for sure change the sound, maybe the GFX it's a little trickier.
Extreme Speed canceling make him face right: Sammi: Huh? I never noticed if this was a thing. If it is, I'll look into it.

 

[Ludacario]

any word on my falco shorten post?