Community Request Thread for the next version after 4.0BC

[player_03]

How'd you record that?

First I played a match with only one player (this is allowed in time matches). While watching the replay, I pressed R to make the camera follow ZSS, and then used X and Y to get a good zoom level. To improve video quality, I slowed the emulation to 50% speed, and then recorded using OBS classic. Finally, I used Blender for editing.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Lucis. For future reference your posts do kind of take up a good portion of the thread pages. Please condense using spoilers. The character faces can be found under the emoji tab under Minus. The Spoiler option can be found the Insert tab and is rather self-explanatory to use.

I avoided doing so this time around to ensure that my suggestion be seen. In general I've learned to do so, however. As you can see I used it in my reply to player_03 right after, and have used it since you first pointed it out to me.

 

[EpicNonBread]

I avoided doing so this time around to ensure that my suggestion be seen.

That's really inconsiderate considering most of your posts on here has been rather long. Ludacario's post has been receiving good amounts of feedback and all he did was post a link to a google doc. Your walls of text don't need to be forced in our way to scroll through just to be read. People who are engaged and interested in suggestion related discussion will click on your spoiler, just label it appropriately.

 

[Survivian]

Alright. I have a couple of requests for Pit.

Spoiler: Side Special

If at all possible, could Pit's Side Special have a crouch cancel of sorts added on to it? The reason I ask this is because all the other Side Specials that can cancel (Ike, Fox, Yoshi, etc.) all have multiple options when acting out of their Side Specials. The fact that Pit only is able to grab seems a bit tacked on to me. Maybe not even a crouch cancel. Maybe it could just have the ability to shield out of it for some ways to increase pressure and close the distance. He really needs all the help he can get.

Spoiler: Up Air

This I am not as adamant about, but maybe Pit Up-Air could have a sort of windbox (tiny. Maybe like a G&W tall above the bow) that pulls opponents down? Make the bow act like an actual helicopter by pulling down enemies into it. It would make consecutive Up-Airs link into each other.

Maybe still you could decrease the knockback on it so that it leads into other aerials (Treat this request as separate from the above Up-Air changes). In the experiences that I've had with Pit, Up-Air has been a below average counter aerial considering how it sends the opponent too high into the air for any follow ups, can be beaten out by any other move with a disjoint, and is a terrible kill move. Having a reliable juggling move that still has some reasonable weaknesses would make Pit's air game more than just "Will I hit Fair/Bair this time?" That would fit in to the whole idea that Pit is an angel who supposedly excels at sky combat.

Spoiler: Neutral Air

Just a small change for this. Reduce the amount of times it hits and make the hits link into themselves better. Also the endlag is a bit long for any reliable followups. Maybe tweak that by a couple of frames (2-4, maybe? I've never been good at estimating frames).

That's all the requests for now. Later!

 

[Darxmarx]

Maybe it could just have the ability to shield out of it for some ways to increase pressure and close the distance. He really needs all the help he can get.

I don't mean to shoot down your idea (who knows, it might be added), but in previous versions, Pit's sideB actually did have a shield cancel. It was removed to force Pit to make the decision to go after the enemy.

 

[Darxmarx]

Before I begin, sorry for this double-post! ;~; I'm just putting this separately to clearly show that this is a request post and not simply a response to someone else.

Spoiler: Smash 4 Styled Team Battles

In case not all of you are aware, it is now possible to use colored outlines to represent your team color rather than being forced to choose one of 3 different costumes (or Wario's 6). Could the Minus team please get permission to implement this cool feature into Minus? This style of team costumes is one of the coolest features of Smash 4, and honestly, I like how the outlines look in in Brawl's engine even more. Plus, this code complements the upcoming cBliss support very well!

Spoiler: Kirby Final Smash Buff

A much less important request here, but I figured I'd share anyway. Multiple Final Smashes in Minus have been buffed noticeably (Luigi's being my favorite as of this version), but Kirby's, one of the most easily avoidable as well as one of the weakest, has not been buffed at all. Could Kirby's Final Smash could be made more powerful in some way, whether it be simply increasing its damage and knockback, making it harder to dodge, or some combination of these suggestions?

Thank you very much!

 

[Dusk]

Zero Suit Samus should have the ability to choose whether or not she spawns with item pieces. I know some players don't like using her items so they just throw them off stage for the few seconds. If not there opponent takes advantage of the items. If an option is given, it doesn't hinder the players that use her items to glide toss, rack up damage with them, or that actually prefer using them.

 

[EpicNonBread]

Zero Suit Samus should have the ability to choose whether or not she spawns with item pieces.

Personally I don't really understand not wanting to utilize such a strong tool of hers, but more optional/toggle-able things couldn't hurt.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Idt there's a need to assign footstooling to the d-pad, as it means that you can no longer DI in the moment that you lift your finger off the analog stick in order to footstool. That and footstooling is a lot more applicable imo the way it is.

 

[EpicNonBread]

as it means that you can no longer DI in the moment that you lift your finger off the analog stick in order to footstool

Could you go a little more in-depth with this? I don't think I understand what you mean.

As it stands right now accidental footstooling is a bit inconvenient as it essentially punishes you for jumping while being directly above your opponent.

 

[Gold_TSG]

We could just remove footstooling... Just puttin that out there.

 

[MelonKeepR]

We could just remove footstooling... Just puttin that out there.

Personally, I wouldn't mind this (in fact, I'd prefer if that were the way it was), but with certain characters (Puff, Mario, etc.) being able to use their footstool to kill/combo, I think it makes sense to keep it in.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Personally, I wouldn't mind this (in fact, I'd prefer if that were the way it was), but with certain characters (Puff, Mario, etc.) being able to use their footstool to kill/combo, I think it makes sense to keep it in.

It's just situational stuff that could easily be replaced with better options, honestly. If footstools were used more strategically for combo extensions like they have been getting in Smash 4 (and even then, not everyone can utilize them that well for such), then it wouldn't be a big deal to keep them, but using "canonical reference" as a reason to keep it on one or two chars isn't really a good one. I personally would rather the smash games take out the mechanic entirely and refine the combo system to a better, more universally accessible state where not just high-top tier chars can do more than a 2-hit combo (mods are excluded from this for obvious reasons).

 

[Bent 00]

Idt there's a need to assign footstooling to the d-pad, as it means that you can no longer DI in the moment that you lift your finger off the analog stick in order to footstool. That and footstooling is a lot more applicable imo the way it is.

Once the "Taunts = Footstool" codes by Magus and ds22 are implemented, you will be able to assign Taunt to an input you don't use much (I use L myself), and use safe Footstools without taking your thumb off of the Control Stick.

I don't think there's any good reason for removing Footstools.

Could you go a little more in-depth with this? I don't think I understand what you mean.

As it stands right now accidental footstooling is a bit inconvenient as it essentially punishes you for jumping while being directly above your opponent.

Assuming the Devs are going with the Type 3 implementation of the "Taunts = Footstool" codes, this will still be a thing; Jumps will still be Footstools if executed right above an opponent's head. Back when this was first discussed, Type 1 / Project M Footstools -- which are tied exclusively to Taunts, not Jumps -- were not as popular among Minus players, compared to being able to Footstool the usual way, via Jump.

The "Taunts = Footstool" thread is here, for reference.

 

[EpicNonBread]

Can you go into detail a little more on Type 3 footstooling? Is there a way for players to deactivate it from the jump input and only have it tied to another button while using this type? If not then the problems that Tybis outlined are still present (assuming Type 3 is what is implemented).

What's the point of having footstool be activatable by anything besides its own input, exclusive from jump? Regular jumps and footstools are each useful in separate ways, but their usefulness is undermined when they interfere with each other. The way I see it, the whole reason the footstool code was made in the first place was to alleviate 2 problems;
1) Prevent footstools from happening when you want to do a regular jump.
2) Prevent regular jumping from happening when you want to do a footstool.

The "Type 1" version of this code, the one PM uses, fixes BOTH problems. The other types only fix one. You'd be able to footstool without risking accidentally doing a regular jump, but you wouldn't be able to jump next to an opponent without running the risk of accidentally doing a footstool instead.

 

[Bent 00]

Is there a way for players to deactivate it from the jump input and only have it tied to another button while using this type? If not then the problems that Tybis outlined are still present (assuming Type 3 is what is implemented).

Only if we go with Type 1 / Project M style Footstools.

Last time I polled about this, Type 3 was more popular among Minus players.

Type 1 would make competitive players happier, but might make casuals sad that they can't Footstool with Jump anymore.
Plenty of players like accidental Footstools -- they find them funny, I guess?

Type 3 wouldn't make competitive players as happy as Type 1 would, but still gives them a fix for one of the two problems Tybis mentioned, and doesn't take anything away from people who like Jump Footstools.

If you ask me, Type 3 seems more "Minus" style, but Type 1 could work.

 

[EpicNonBread]

If you ask me, Type 3 seems more "Minus" style, but Type 1 could work.

It's really whatever kind of design Minus is leaning towards (which god, I still don't even know anymore). I'm definitely biased in this situation, but I almost find accidental footstooling comparable to vBrawl's random tripping even though the footstool isn't actually random, but is still punishing for those who happen to do an action while in a specific spot. In a competitive sense, accidental footstooling pretty much only serves to hinder gameplay, however I do acknowledge that people can just play around this and not jump directly above there opponent. In the end, Type 3 wouldn't be bad, as it would give us more options for landing intentional footstools, but my main beef with it is not being able to "hover" around your opponent without the possible accidental footstool.

 

[Kboomers1918]

Spoiler

Lucis. For future reference your posts do kind of take up a good portion of the thread pages. Please condense using spoilers. The character faces can be found under the emoji tab under Minus. The Spoiler option can be found the Insert tab and is rather self-explanatory to use.

Please put this in a spoiler to prevent taking up space, thanks

 

[Survivian]

Still on the topic of footstools...

Spoiler: Unrelated

Why does vBrawl have the controls set up where it's like Up-Taunt/Footstool, etc. even though that isn't actually implemented in the game?

Spoiler: My Preference

I, as a casual, would much rather have Type 3 footstools as opposed to Type 1. Really, I would much rather there be a sort of code where it makes footstool it's own separate control option. While it may not really happen that much in the grand scheme of things, if the taunt/footstool button were executed on the ground, (Insert "Top 10 Taunt-to-Get-Bodied Combos" video here). If such a thing were to exist, I'd be all on board for that. If not, I'd prefer Type 3. There's also the issue with jump height. Unless this feature doesn't exist in Brawl, varying jump heights off of a footstool are pretty important. If jumping for footstools was completely removed, a large amount of skill and strategy would be lost (at least for the combo game). If at all possible, do Type 3 instead.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Could you go a little more in-depth with this? I don't think I understand what you mean.

As it stands right now accidental footstooling is a bit inconvenient as it essentially punishes you for jumping while being directly above your opponent.

Spoiler: Here's a spoiler

You raise a good point. But just as how a-sticking makes it so that you can DI while executing a move, to remap the footstool to the d-pad means that you need to stop DIin in order to footstool. Though I see your point, jumping while you are over your opponent, be it resulting in a footstool or a normal jump, will still result in a jump for you, it just means your opponent may not be where you expected them to be. I myself have never had this issue, though have successfully implemented footstooling as-is plenty of times for the kill. Once just fastfalling as Ike on a recovering Roy and hitting jump at the right time, knowing that the worst that could happen for me is just a normal double jump, resulted in my gimping Roy as he didn't expect such maneuvers from Ike. However with footstooling set to the d-pad, I would then need to time the d-pad input along with a regular jump to give myself the same type of safety. I also wouldn't be able to fastfall in the same way to obtain this result. It would require more skill with the d-pad being set to footstool, however I feel it would also lose some of its applicability. If anything, I think there should be some sort of in-game function for setting footstools to normal jump or to any other button, but I feel that may be impossible.

 

[player_03]

just as how a-sticking makes it so that you can DI while executing a move, to remap the footstool to the d-pad means that you need to stop DIin in order to footstool.

I think there should be some sort of in-game function for setting footstools to normal jump or to any other button, but I feel that may be impossible.

Bent 00 already addressed both of these.

Spoiler: Solution

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Bent 00 already addressed both of these.

Spoiler: Solution

View attachment 277

I'm aware. I was agreeing for the most part.

 

[Survivian]

So... no one wants to listen to the words of the casual crowd?
I see how it is.

 

[memahalo]

I agree with Survivian that the casual crowd has a big impact on this, especially since brawl minus is viewed by most people as less competitive.

I think of changing the footstool to taunt, at least to me, is kinda changing a small part of the game. I have to change my muscle memory of how I go for footstools. Instead of just pressing jump, a button close to where your right hand is, you have to move your left hand down or give up a button and still change your reaction.
Some may say just to adapt, but my counter-argument is why didn't nintendo just force competitive players to use the pro controller? it is similar to the gamecube controller.
For casuals, it mostly remove footstools from the game and for more serious players, it forces a change in muscle memory.

 

[simsims2800]

For footstools, to make footstools useful, why not make them untechable like in Smash 4? Everyone loves a super hype footstool combo, and it would make some cool stuff usable without relying on tech mindgames! (My personal favorite: Diddy turning into Captain Falcon with FS --> dair --> FS --> dair --> rinse and repeat.)