Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!

Thor

Well-Known Member
And again, you're missing my point. I mentioned at several points that it would require TAS-level inputs to do many of the things I was talking about. Please try to read what I'm writing without putting words in my mouth. If something doesn't make sense, I'll clarify.

Fox isn't faster than Sonic in the air by just spamming side B. Of course. He is almost as fast with a good shine glide. Not faster, and not by spamming illusion.

He's still stuck in shine the entire time and has to commit to a jump to do anything meaningful out of the shine slide.

Don't make me screenshot the page, but you said earlier:

Fox is can move nearly as quickly as Sonic on the ground, and faster in the air

Alright. A shine glide is literally just illusion into reflector. You hit side B, and then you hold down B. If you don't already, I highly recommend using it against any Toon Link or Charizard. They simply can't use stage hazards against you. (They remain on the field and will hurt your opponent if touched.)

As for the 'two frame grab hitbox duration', I think you misunderstand how one should usually grab out of illusion. You don't break off the slide partway through or space for a grab, you hold a trigger button as you use side B. Here's an example.

Slide, do some damage, get free grab. I don't believe you can meaningfully SDI out of it with any character.

I'm not sure why shine gliding exists, given that shine is supposed to kill off momentum... hm...

Looks highly SDIable but I'm not sure... and in any case, you're still slowly moving in for the grab, not warping in at high speed.

Your post implies that I think Fox is overpowered or in any way stronger than he should be. I don't. He's fine. I'm not going to go into the machinations of Fox's moves with you. Maybe they secretly changed since we messed around with TAS in 3.Q. If you don't think you can wavedash out of shine and start a dash attack in the first few frames, you're welcome to that, because it will literally never be applicable in a match. No human will ever be able to hold the stick vertically on one frame and then at a shallow downward angle on the next. My point was merely to show that Fox is capable of extremely technical things in this game, not to waffle about it. That's why I tried to make it so abundantly clear that I was referring to the upper bounds of the character. Not what the average Fox player can pull off at the drop of a hat.

You can just do a dash, then c-stick down. There was a shieldstun decrease in 4.0, so this should be even less feasible, but the real issue is why wavedashing has less landing lag than it's supposed to.

You do strike me as that sort of player.

Given that this is a mod, I'd push for that to be nerfed, or everyone else to be buffed, and these days, nerfs are a lot easier to get than buffs sadly.

I've been meaning to upload this match to better explain why I think Sonic vs. Falcon is a very even or Falcon-favored matchup. I won't go into it fully now, but here's some stuff:

I have a tendency to leave a spring at the ledge to force my opponent into doing an aerial or otherwise going around the spring, lest they be meteor smashed by the bouncing spring. It worked a bit in this match, but it didn't work every time. But it does kill Falcon every time he messed up and ran into it. Should it be nerfed? I really don't think so. He could avoid it every time if he were more careful.

You might also notice that I got zero Dair kills in this match. That's pretty standard. Daft is pretty aware of that option, and takes care not to blindly jump offstage when I'm not in hitstun or already far below him. 'Good' options are often balanced by the other person knowing that they're good options. If it were safer for me to go for the Dair, maybe I'd try it anyway. I think it's in a good spot with this level of gravity. It's a bit stronger than a shine spike, though less risky, and weaker than Ganon's up-B, though riskier. (Weaker in the sense that you can just get out of the way with an airdodge; both are lethal if landed.)

Almost every time I am seriously hit in this match above 40%, I die within seconds. Do I think Falcon's attacks should impart lower knockback, or that Sonic should be a much heavier character? No. That's just how the game is, and sometimes I just want to sit down and figure it out and try to excel at the game instead of trying to mold it to fit my needs. It's a lot more fun that way.

I'll probably expand more on the match analysis in another thread tomorrow.

Tendancy? More like a habit. You can go offstage and hit Falcon, then spring him when he's in a much worse spot, but you opt not to... I'd say that's just poor edgeguarding really.

I'd have to recheck, but at some point fthrow boost dair could kill people at zero... you only go for uthrow [and a killing bthrow as far as I see], but you don't seem to focus on putting Falcon offstage and killing him.

You're implying I somehow don't lab MUs or something. I look at a lot of stuff, and you'll notice I almost never push for a nerf on anything, even characters that frustrate me [as many times as Darxmarx gets the better of me (and there are more than I'd like to admit lol), I will NEVER understand Kien's obsession with nerfing a lightweight with low range and average KO power, just because he can actually do combos like everyone else and has a kill throw]. The fact is, you shouldn't be able to hit a Sonic with unlimited boost if someone actually puts time into spacing their DD and boosting carefully, and that's awful game design, plain and simple [awful stage design is why many stages aren't legal... you can't hit a Fox laser camping on Temple in Melee with basically anyone in the cast besides another Fox, which is one huge reason why it's banned (among several). Sonic's boost, if unlimited, lets him do this on every stage except possibly like Yoshi's, and even then it should be difficult because he can use the platforms to land and can walljump then boost to ledge].

I'm not asking for Sonic's dair to do less knockback, I'm asking for an angle change so it follows the rules that every other downward sending move follows. Heck, buff the damage AND knockback on his dair, as long as the angle changes. As for Boost, there's a difference between "I have to play better" and "I literally can't hit this character unless they mess up." The former is perfectly fine and definitely something I work on. The latter is a reason to quit a game.

Sonic utterly destroys Falcon in 3.Q. With the nerfs it's probably closer to even, but it should still be Sonic favored. The video did show me you have pretty bad DI, and also that neither of you is terribly proficient at meteor cancelling [unless you can't cancel the spring either, which should then also be fixed].

EDIT:
Because there is no penalty from landing from an airdodge in this game, Fox only has (checks PSA) 3 frames of landing lag normally, meaning he has only three frames of lag off a wavedash. This is why rolls/spot dodges are sometimes buffered from a wavedash. Doesn't ake away from your argument, since I think wavedash is better to combo out of shine with (although waveshines are dead because of the hit stun decrease) rather than a movement option.

Airdodges are supposed to have 6 frames of landing lag as far as I know, but I'm surprised [and a little disappointed] that the dev team didn't make a wavedash 10 frames of landing lag, consistent with Melee. Then again, he can't [or definitely couldn't, maybe can now] uthrow uair...
 

Neville

GG M8s
Minus Backroom
Airdodges are supposed to have 6 frames of landing lag as far as I know, but I'm surprised [and a little disappointed] that the dev team didn't make a wavedash 10 frames of landing lag, consistent with Melee. Then again, he can't [or definitely couldn't, maybe can now] uthrow uair...
It would actually be better if there were 10 frames of lag because that would make it impossible to cancel a wavedash into an immediate spot dodge or roll.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Alright. These books you guys are writing to each other about Sonic and Fox are getting ridiculous. If you wanna argue/debate semantics over characters, please take it to PMs. This topic is supposed to be focused on the release of the beta, as well as discussion about it as a whole, not on two characters and what they can do in however many frames.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
It would actually be better if there were 10 frames of lag because that would make it impossible to cancel a wavedash into an immediate spot dodge or roll.

It also weakens his shield pressure. Seems like a win-win.

MK dair seems a little silly if I haven't said as much already... it chains into itself quite easily from when I played.

Also can we make raptor boost either stronger or weaker? Right now the move is one of Falcon's least rewarding, offering positional advantage and little else [you get uair or knee at zero on some people but you have to double jump so you can't get much after that], and it doesn't kill for a very long time. At least it still looks cool.

Any plans with gravity? I'm curious what combos people lose in this hitstun + 3.Q gravity [as that was cited as one reason gravity was raised], and I can't imagine those combos actually being integral to anyone's combo game either... I miss the game feeling mostly like Brawl in the air, now it feels just plain weird.
 

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
Any plans with gravity? I'm curious what combos people lose in this hitstun + 3.Q gravity [as that was cited as one reason gravity was raised]
Gravity was increased to buff combos to balance out the nerfs they got in decreased hitstun.

Gravity is probably here to stay.
 

Mawootad

Minus Backroom
About the only thing we can do with changing landlag from air dodge is to force heavy landing, Brawl doesn't actually have air dodge landing animations and thus doesn't have specific air dodge landing lag.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Also can we make raptor boost either stronger or weaker? Right now the move is one of Falcon's least rewarding, offering positional advantage and little else [you get uair or knee at zero on some people but you have to double jump so you can't get much after that], and it doesn't kill for a very long time. At least it still looks cool.

Why not give it a power increase like it got in Smash 4?
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Why not give it a power increase like it got in Smash 4?

I don't care if it gets more KB or less, I jus think it's not useful as is. Totally down for a power increase as a KO move, or a power decrease as a combo starter. But picking one or the other would be better than where it is now.

With respect to Bent's inquiry, Snake nair, Pikachu dair are two pivotal moves horribly affected, and other characters have moves with tighter spacing/timing that may be lost entirely [I didn't check Marth double fair but I should have]. I sincerely doubt that the increase in gravity actually significantly offsets combo ability loss, and it makes some [several?] moves not work right. It also is another way that drags us slowly closer to PM/Melee/etc. Gravity change was a sad day for Minus...
 

Mawootad

Minus Backroom
Figured out what to do with Snake's N-Air yet? Are any other long moves like that affected?
We haven't quite figured out what to do with it yet. There are a currently a couple of gravity/hitstun related things we're looking to fix that we need to debate on the best method for solving, like Puff's standing infinite chain grab on DDD and Dorf's total inability to get onto the stage without using a ledge getup option.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Could just go back to the drawing board about the whole gravity thing, since the entire game was designed around the default. You're talking about needing to rebalance/fix everything affected by that change, known and unknown.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Pichu and Puff's dThrows were broken by the hitstun decrease, not by gravity changes.

I assume lower hitstun = less ability to tech it [and thus it actually chaingrabs]? That's what seemed to be the case with Brawl Falco dthrow...

speaking of which... I wonder if the new changes let Falco boost grab CG again? I know myself and owo both confirmed they were impossible in 3.Q [or 3.3 or whatever, and it didn't change from there] via trying to CG each other and having the other DI hard away [CGs were confirmed if you DI'd in hard at low percents, i.e. like no one who has any understanding of how to DI would want to DI], but if this makes Pichu more able to chaingrab...
 

Mawootad

Minus Backroom
It's not really that it makes you less able to tech, when you take less than a certain amount of hitstun attacks don't knock you down (eg Falco lasers). When you don't get knocked down you get no grab immunity, plus you can't tech so you can't really choose where you end up.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
If it matters, I'd also like to express my interest in a debug mode. Especially if this is to be the last version, I want to have better tools to theorycraft with in the future. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help bring it about!
 

Mawootad

Minus Backroom
So basically of you want to code and/or do the research to develop debug mode we'll do debug mode otherwise we probably won't. If I get time I'll take a quick look into the necessary requirements, but unless it turns out to be incredibly simple or someone on the team already knows exactly what to do it probably won't be finished.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
Hmm, looking into the Project M debug mode development process, it took Magus (who is a much better coder than I) several years to get it to work properly. Unlike Melee, Brawl didn't ship with a mostly-hidden debug mode already on the disc. I doubt I'd get it to work on my own within any meaningful timeframe.

I could see about contacting the PMDT to see if we can re-use some of their stuff, but of course I'd like to hear opinions on that from y'all first.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
I could see about contacting the PMDT to see if we can re-use some of their stuff, but of course I'd like to hear opinions on that from y'all first.
Contact them if you want. You don't need the permission of anyone here to ask them any questions.

I went to Magus and ds22 directly to ask for their Taunt=Footstool codes, and that worked out well.

Just be very polite!
 

rezzollution

New Member
Is there anyone that can help install Brawl Minus? I've been using the normal way without homebrew and whenever I load stage builder, nothing happens. Am I missing something?
 
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