Can I see where they stated this? It might make an interesting read.
Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
Alright. Send me a message, I'll send you the files.Whaat?! I'd really like to try that version, even if it's incomplete.
Oddly enough, that's a lot more complicated from a PSA standpoint...
This is another part of why I don't play Minus anymore. Sonic's boost just made him a ton of fun.
This is what happens when I check the forums twice a month. I have to reply to everyone in a row, and I bet this thread is looking crazy right about now...
I thought of having his boost work the opposite. He can boost dash on the ground but only gets one air boost per jump. Probably a bad idea, but it's closer to canon and would make air boost more of a recovery tool while also limiting his aerial pressure for juggling.
It's possible... it'd just be a bigger pain than NSM and magic arrows with psuedo aura mechanics combined.
Just gonna say that I have some plans of my own for Smash 4. Not sure who'll be following my ideals though. They're kind of ambitious...
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Lucis Perficio
Radiant Hero of Blue Flames
Let's talk.
Welp, LB and I have discovered a chain grab with Jiggs, which only works on Bowser and DDD. Jiggs can infinitely Down throw chain them, as they do not fall down from the throw, and around 100%, she can true combo Down throw into a Rest.
We tested this, and LB was unable to DI out of both the chain, and the combo into Rest. Possible fix, please?
We tested this, and LB was unable to DI out of both the chain, and the combo into Rest. Possible fix, please?
Thor
Well-Known Member
Remember how Bent was complaining about Sonic being annoying and you said your attempt to make Sonic fun and interactive and not annoying got you kicked out of the backroom?
If your plan involved Sonic keeping his old Boost, your vision of Sonic was one of the least interactive and most annoying characters in the game.
Sonic having unlimited boost is incompatible with Sonic being anything other than a massively frustrating bore/nightmare to play against, depending on who you main.
Valravn
Well-Known Member
I have heard people on here complain about Sonic being...
...though mostly just Thor. When I play with people locally, their first impression of Sonic is "Whoa, what the fuck! He's so fast!". Then we proceed to play Minus for a few hours. Everyone enjoys themselves and tries new ideas if they're getting destroyed by a certain character or a certain tactic. Someone's playing Toon Link and platform camping with arrows? Pick any character with a reflection mechanic, or other way to power through the arrows. I haven't met anyone yet who has asked me to stop playing Sonic. I really don't get that mentality.
To me, Minus is all about the crazy stuff. The broken stuff. If something is so nuts that you have to go find something equally overpowered to beat it, it's working properly. Can't wall Sonic out with Zelda? Play Bowser and armor through everything. Play Marth and wall him out with shorter range but stronger hitboxes. Play Falcon and outmaneuver him on the ground. If you're just having too much fun playing Zelda, try to be more cautious and play reactively instead of walling. Do anything other than stay the course and keep losing to a character you're not having fun losing to. It's not hard to pick up a second character, or a third, or a fourth. I play ten characters in Minus pretty regularly, and dabble in the rest.
Solo-maining a character in Melee isn't the norm anymore. It's not common in Project M. I don't know anything about Smash 4! The point is that it seems ridiculous to try and play any smash game competitively - with the sole exception of 64 - with the expectation of having fair and even matchups across the whole roster. The game has too many variables. It's not hard to find a single secondary to cover your weak matchups. That's standard practice in every smash community I've ever been a part of. I don't know what the Minus back room is precisely aiming for, but I highly doubt it's a roster where any character has 40:60 odds or better in every matchup. Bowser will always struggle against Fox unless one or the other changes on a fundamental level.
...though mostly just Thor. When I play with people locally, their first impression of Sonic is "Whoa, what the fuck! He's so fast!". Then we proceed to play Minus for a few hours. Everyone enjoys themselves and tries new ideas if they're getting destroyed by a certain character or a certain tactic. Someone's playing Toon Link and platform camping with arrows? Pick any character with a reflection mechanic, or other way to power through the arrows. I haven't met anyone yet who has asked me to stop playing Sonic. I really don't get that mentality.
To me, Minus is all about the crazy stuff. The broken stuff. If something is so nuts that you have to go find something equally overpowered to beat it, it's working properly. Can't wall Sonic out with Zelda? Play Bowser and armor through everything. Play Marth and wall him out with shorter range but stronger hitboxes. Play Falcon and outmaneuver him on the ground. If you're just having too much fun playing Zelda, try to be more cautious and play reactively instead of walling. Do anything other than stay the course and keep losing to a character you're not having fun losing to. It's not hard to pick up a second character, or a third, or a fourth. I play ten characters in Minus pretty regularly, and dabble in the rest.
Solo-maining a character in Melee isn't the norm anymore. It's not common in Project M. I don't know anything about Smash 4! The point is that it seems ridiculous to try and play any smash game competitively - with the sole exception of 64 - with the expectation of having fair and even matchups across the whole roster. The game has too many variables. It's not hard to find a single secondary to cover your weak matchups. That's standard practice in every smash community I've ever been a part of. I don't know what the Minus back room is precisely aiming for, but I highly doubt it's a roster where any character has 40:60 odds or better in every matchup. Bowser will always struggle against Fox unless one or the other changes on a fundamental level.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
It should be more about playing your favorite character and enjoying yourself, not picking the characters that win. When I played minus, I played about 30 characters to at least a competent degree, but I still focused on the ones that I had the most fun using.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
That's just it tho. I never played to win, but people always thought otherwise because I could use so many so well. Character balance should be the focus to creating more viable choices to pick from when you want to win, instead of limiting yourself to the select few that just plain do best.
Glyph
Moderator
There isn't a single character in minus history I think that could be called 'unviable'. Some characters are better but never by such a huge degree that it couldn't be overcome by being a better player. This isn't accounting for niche MUs of course.
Minus' balance mentality has been poisoned by this idea that its not fair to have some characters that end up being better, and even moreso by a failure to identify a target audience. Balancing for free for alls is different than balancing for low level play is different than balancing for high level play is different than balancing for tournament play. Take poor Kirby this last patch. He got absolutely OBLITERATED because of logic like 'now you'll need actual skill to play this character instead of just hitting them to win'. Darx is, to my knowledge, far and beyond the most talented Kirby main we have and even then he's not beating everyone all the time. Hell I played a lot of Kirby and mine was never even in the same league as his. If Kirby was half as overpowered as this patch made him out to be, I would have never dropped games with him but instead he was super inconsistent thanks to a well defined area of strength (being a combo monster) while still having pronounced weaknesses (weight and reach).
Kirby, to a player on the lower end of the skill spectrum, would seem completely overwhelming. He'd get in on you and combo you for days and then suddenly you'd be dead and kind of lost as to what happened. Instead of having the 'wow that was rough, maybe I can mix up my DI or zone harder' mentality, we end up with 'wow Kirby is too easy and cheap'. Its not the player's fault for losing, it's Kirby's. Now a character that I doubt was even in the top 10, man I'd even say he might not be top 20, that's taken a huge hit to his effectiveness at a high level for the sake of making things easier for people who didn't want to deal with it. And that's really sad.
Oh also, taking Kirby's inhale cancel away is a terrible move. If people want to inhale powers, they still -can-, but the grab option was there to make the move useful in literally every matchup. Now you're in a MU where the copy ability isn't one that really helps you or you just aren't familiar with? Too bad, enjoy like 10-15% on them and a move you don't want. The explanation I've been given for this was 'to make the character truer to its core games', or something to that effect. Kirby's identity is that guy who eats people, I can get that. But if I wanted that, I would pick up a Kirby game. I'm playing a smash game here, and a command grab is 9 times out of 10 going to be a better option. Again, option. No one can stop you from copying powers if you want to.
I can't understand how you guys would give G&W a bucket charge on taunt and take this away in the same patch.
Sorry about the tone of this post, especially since I'm not touching on the stuff I did like in the update but these are pretty grievous problems that could use some discussion.
Minus' balance mentality has been poisoned by this idea that its not fair to have some characters that end up being better, and even moreso by a failure to identify a target audience. Balancing for free for alls is different than balancing for low level play is different than balancing for high level play is different than balancing for tournament play. Take poor Kirby this last patch. He got absolutely OBLITERATED because of logic like 'now you'll need actual skill to play this character instead of just hitting them to win'. Darx is, to my knowledge, far and beyond the most talented Kirby main we have and even then he's not beating everyone all the time. Hell I played a lot of Kirby and mine was never even in the same league as his. If Kirby was half as overpowered as this patch made him out to be, I would have never dropped games with him but instead he was super inconsistent thanks to a well defined area of strength (being a combo monster) while still having pronounced weaknesses (weight and reach).
Kirby, to a player on the lower end of the skill spectrum, would seem completely overwhelming. He'd get in on you and combo you for days and then suddenly you'd be dead and kind of lost as to what happened. Instead of having the 'wow that was rough, maybe I can mix up my DI or zone harder' mentality, we end up with 'wow Kirby is too easy and cheap'. Its not the player's fault for losing, it's Kirby's. Now a character that I doubt was even in the top 10, man I'd even say he might not be top 20, that's taken a huge hit to his effectiveness at a high level for the sake of making things easier for people who didn't want to deal with it. And that's really sad.
Oh also, taking Kirby's inhale cancel away is a terrible move. If people want to inhale powers, they still -can-, but the grab option was there to make the move useful in literally every matchup. Now you're in a MU where the copy ability isn't one that really helps you or you just aren't familiar with? Too bad, enjoy like 10-15% on them and a move you don't want. The explanation I've been given for this was 'to make the character truer to its core games', or something to that effect. Kirby's identity is that guy who eats people, I can get that. But if I wanted that, I would pick up a Kirby game. I'm playing a smash game here, and a command grab is 9 times out of 10 going to be a better option. Again, option. No one can stop you from copying powers if you want to.
I can't understand how you guys would give G&W a bucket charge on taunt and take this away in the same patch.
Sorry about the tone of this post, especially since I'm not touching on the stuff I did like in the update but these are pretty grievous problems that could use some discussion.
Mawootad
Minus Backroom
The feedback is definitely appreciated. Kirby's hats were supposed to have been overhauled for 4.0 to make them universally useful, but that never ended up happening due to a combination lack of time and ideas. The end result is that because hats suck just like they always have in Smash and inhale is no longer good by itself the move is hugely weaker. We would like to solve at least one of those issues by 4.0 full.
Momurderer
Bazooka Koopa
So do any of these recent posts help Sonic get his old Boost back?
Thanks for the reply Kien. I do like you're idea of limiting Sonic's air boosting ability. One Boost per jump might be a little harsh. The cooldown on air boost isn't that bad for combos, by the time Sonic pulls off some hits the cooldown timer is up and he can still chase through the air and follow up which is one of my favorite things about Sonic, but air boost cooldown does limit the crazy approaching options and fake outs that Sonic has. The only reason I even thought of different ways to change boost was because of the gripes. It may be annoying but I think pikmin are annoying as hell too and they haven't got nerfed hardly at all. Still annoying and do make for some bad MUs but well over half the cast can still work around them although it takes some doing. People who just spam Pikmin are the worst, just blindly throwing a wall of them at you with just the random hope that they stick and do their ridiculous damage and knockback and at the same time people who just spam boost back and forth all the live long day are annoying too. Anything can be annoying if it's spammed but if it's done in rapid succession with a goal in mind then that's not really spamming, it's using a good move to get what you want.
Thanks for the reply Kien. I do like you're idea of limiting Sonic's air boosting ability. One Boost per jump might be a little harsh. The cooldown on air boost isn't that bad for combos, by the time Sonic pulls off some hits the cooldown timer is up and he can still chase through the air and follow up which is one of my favorite things about Sonic, but air boost cooldown does limit the crazy approaching options and fake outs that Sonic has. The only reason I even thought of different ways to change boost was because of the gripes. It may be annoying but I think pikmin are annoying as hell too and they haven't got nerfed hardly at all. Still annoying and do make for some bad MUs but well over half the cast can still work around them although it takes some doing. People who just spam Pikmin are the worst, just blindly throwing a wall of them at you with just the random hope that they stick and do their ridiculous damage and knockback and at the same time people who just spam boost back and forth all the live long day are annoying too. Anything can be annoying if it's spammed but if it's done in rapid succession with a goal in mind then that's not really spamming, it's using a good move to get what you want.
BeepBoopWAH
Wah, wah, HYUHH
Please tell me Brawl- will recieve ASL, like Project M
Brawl Minus is incompatible with ASL. It will instead be receiving the Stage Expansion Pack.
This may be nitpicking, but 3Q Pichu was almost as viable as Melee Pichu, which is to say, not at all. As for Kirby, the only thing I think needed removing was his inhale grab, but w/e.
Mawootad
Minus Backroom
No. Boost dancing is fundamentally broken and is not coming back.
Will he ever have the hitbox on his boost? It was stated it was going to be in the game, but it wasn't there, with absolutely no forewarning or explanation.
The condition for the hitbox on Boost was a much longer cooldown than the one that is in 4.0b, and we found that not being able to boost for so long took a lot away from what made Sonic fun to play as.
Lucis Perficio
Radiant Hero of Blue Flames
I feel like if Kirby were to have any more inhale options, it would be something other than a grab-cancel; perhaps something more like a special-cancel or normal-cancel? Or perhaps his copy abilities could be tailored to help him in match-ups where they might not be all that helpful otherwise.
As for Sonic, it seems reasonable for his boost to have a weak, non-flinching hitbox, since otherwise he could just boost through others to damage them over time.
I think that Minus needs to be looked at more in terms of a FFA perspective considering how ridiculous some things are in such a case, like Ganon's uTilt. I like it and all, but in multiplayer it pretty much means that Ganon will be triple-teamed, as ignoring him and letting him get too far may lead to a needless 20%. It's definitely needed for Ganondorf in one-on-one matches with really fast characters, or those with a lot of projectiles, but it may need to be reworked imo. Maybe deal less damage and deal a set knockback? At least where the quake-boxes are concerned. Otherwise, the close-range portion of the move is sensible.
Take that and characters like Olimar who can still spam side-b at and pretty much hope to hit something with little to no risk, and then hit foes that his Pikmin hit towards him, though I guess he's super light so that makes sense.
As for Sonic, it seems reasonable for his boost to have a weak, non-flinching hitbox, since otherwise he could just boost through others to damage them over time.
I think that Minus needs to be looked at more in terms of a FFA perspective considering how ridiculous some things are in such a case, like Ganon's uTilt. I like it and all, but in multiplayer it pretty much means that Ganon will be triple-teamed, as ignoring him and letting him get too far may lead to a needless 20%. It's definitely needed for Ganondorf in one-on-one matches with really fast characters, or those with a lot of projectiles, but it may need to be reworked imo. Maybe deal less damage and deal a set knockback? At least where the quake-boxes are concerned. Otherwise, the close-range portion of the move is sensible.
Take that and characters like Olimar who can still spam side-b at and pretty much hope to hit something with little to no risk, and then hit foes that his Pikmin hit towards him, though I guess he's super light so that makes sense.
Mawootad
Minus Backroom
FFAs are too casual a format to be worth balancing around. If something is insanely ridiculously overpowered in FFA to the extent that it makes games not fun to play and we can fix that without significantly affecting 1v1 we'll make changes with FFA in mind, but otherwise skill differences are so large and so varied that most changes mean absolutely nothing in the end.
Sammi-husky What's your opinion on 4.0b Kirby? I don't think he was butchered. He was previously a high damage output character on his non combo moves, who killed in the early 100s like the heavy hitters, but he was also a combo monster, and gimping machine. Now he's had some of his things downgraded, but I don't think it's gone too far. It'd be nice if you and Glyph had some words, since you've faced Kirby a lot longer than I have. Personally, I think Kirby is still top 10.
Thor
Well-Known Member
> Implying 64 balanced
That's besides the point I suppose.
One of the problems I take with boost-dancing is that it's dash-dancing if dash-dancing were made as stupid as possible, and dash-dancing is already really really stupid. While smash isn't a traditional fighting game by any stretch of the word, it can destroy a lot of low-tiers on its own (as well as numerous aspects of an MU being reduced to "dash-dance harder") and make even high tiers seem unviable... to see what I am talking about, go watch Armada vs PPMD winner's semis at APEX 2015. PPMD literally only loses game 3 with Marth because he made a mistake and Armada executed a zero-to-death, but PPMD makes Armada's Peach look like a n00b-level Peach who thinks dash attack is the best move in the game and dsmash is a miracle from heaven. Boost-dancing takes that up to 11 in such a manner that the only way to reliably hit Sonic out of a boost dance is to swing for the fences... and he can do this at any point on any stage by just going up vertically and then boosting until he gets center stage to work his magic. Worse, it completely takes it covering landings out of the equation in a smash game where that's rather important for some characters [even Pikachu's landing can be covered, but boost is impossible to cover Sonic touching down].
You've thus got an unhittable, unjugglable foe in the right hands, which is, as Mawtooad said, fundamentally broken game design.
Now, it's not EASY to do this, don't get me wrong, but neither is Palutena's infinite lightweight glitch [or rather, actually controlling her during lightweight], yet I met a guy who was nearly perfect at it. My best bet in combating this was one of two options - pick Sheik and spend the entire match fair walling, then look for a bouncing fish or one grab to try to uair her [only workable because of how absurdly safe Smash 4 Sheik fair is], or pick Pikachu and spam back air because Palutena can't grab Pikachu's landing animation on bair, and her dash attack goes over it as well, leaving only super speed [inconsistent] or jab as punish options (After enough bairs, fish for usmash, fsmash, or heavy skull bash KO). The former is tedious and annoying [one mistake can spell death], while the latter is interactive in only the dumbest sense of the word. We played for several hours, and combating the man who could zero-death you off an error was frustrating difficult.
So what does Sonic have? A get out of non-perfect combos free card [boost], a land for free card [boost], and a I'm-even-harder-to-hit-than-Melee-Marth-and-Lightweight-Palutena-combined card [boost], all rolled into one move. It's poison to game design to make a character with a move that means they should fundamentally never get hit, as the rest of the cast is just too slow to keep up with them [if you can't shield out of boost, this alleviates things VERY slightly since projectiles can do a little to mitigate, but they have startup and Sonic's boost can punish anything crosstage in less than a second, so that's of dubious value... and I think he can shield out of boost, so just press R then spring out of shield and go back to boost dancing].
And quite frankly, the problem was NEVER losing to a Sonic - I played Kien and almost won just spamming Vanish [back when Vanish was STUPID broken], and have taken games (and lost them) with Falco, Sheik, and more. The problem is that this was occurring in a super laggy Wi-Fi room with a rusty Kien - if you make this game competitive and give someone who really likes Sonic a year to really nail down the intricasies of boost, they just shouldn't get hit, because they never have to commit, ever. And that's just bad game design.
If Sonic is getting walled by Marth or armored through by Bowser, he's doing it oh so very wrong. He can just boost dance around Marth's short-duration hitboxes and wait for a pattern, then strike [or hit him once and run away for 8 minutes], and he should be grabbing Bowser nearly every time. Falcon shouldn't be outmaneuvering Sonic ever.
And if people are gonna say "Well, why don't YOU break the character?" Frankly, it's not fun. I've never enjoyed playing Sonic in any game. If people really were convinced Sonic is bad [I think he was the theoretically best character in every patch with unlimited boost, although he had an extremely high skill level required to make that happen] and I had my setup on me, I'd be willing to try to break Sonic's boost enough to get him nerfed if that's what it took, but the idea is thoroughly unappealing, because attempting to show why a toxic character is toxic is not something that's fun to me.
That's besides the point I suppose.
One of the problems I take with boost-dancing is that it's dash-dancing if dash-dancing were made as stupid as possible, and dash-dancing is already really really stupid. While smash isn't a traditional fighting game by any stretch of the word, it can destroy a lot of low-tiers on its own (as well as numerous aspects of an MU being reduced to "dash-dance harder") and make even high tiers seem unviable... to see what I am talking about, go watch Armada vs PPMD winner's semis at APEX 2015. PPMD literally only loses game 3 with Marth because he made a mistake and Armada executed a zero-to-death, but PPMD makes Armada's Peach look like a n00b-level Peach who thinks dash attack is the best move in the game and dsmash is a miracle from heaven. Boost-dancing takes that up to 11 in such a manner that the only way to reliably hit Sonic out of a boost dance is to swing for the fences... and he can do this at any point on any stage by just going up vertically and then boosting until he gets center stage to work his magic. Worse, it completely takes it covering landings out of the equation in a smash game where that's rather important for some characters [even Pikachu's landing can be covered, but boost is impossible to cover Sonic touching down].
You've thus got an unhittable, unjugglable foe in the right hands, which is, as Mawtooad said, fundamentally broken game design.
Now, it's not EASY to do this, don't get me wrong, but neither is Palutena's infinite lightweight glitch [or rather, actually controlling her during lightweight], yet I met a guy who was nearly perfect at it. My best bet in combating this was one of two options - pick Sheik and spend the entire match fair walling, then look for a bouncing fish or one grab to try to uair her [only workable because of how absurdly safe Smash 4 Sheik fair is], or pick Pikachu and spam back air because Palutena can't grab Pikachu's landing animation on bair, and her dash attack goes over it as well, leaving only super speed [inconsistent] or jab as punish options (After enough bairs, fish for usmash, fsmash, or heavy skull bash KO). The former is tedious and annoying [one mistake can spell death], while the latter is interactive in only the dumbest sense of the word. We played for several hours, and combating the man who could zero-death you off an error was frustrating difficult.
So what does Sonic have? A get out of non-perfect combos free card [boost], a land for free card [boost], and a I'm-even-harder-to-hit-than-Melee-Marth-and-Lightweight-Palutena-combined card [boost], all rolled into one move. It's poison to game design to make a character with a move that means they should fundamentally never get hit, as the rest of the cast is just too slow to keep up with them [if you can't shield out of boost, this alleviates things VERY slightly since projectiles can do a little to mitigate, but they have startup and Sonic's boost can punish anything crosstage in less than a second, so that's of dubious value... and I think he can shield out of boost, so just press R then spring out of shield and go back to boost dancing].
And quite frankly, the problem was NEVER losing to a Sonic - I played Kien and almost won just spamming Vanish [back when Vanish was STUPID broken], and have taken games (and lost them) with Falco, Sheik, and more. The problem is that this was occurring in a super laggy Wi-Fi room with a rusty Kien - if you make this game competitive and give someone who really likes Sonic a year to really nail down the intricasies of boost, they just shouldn't get hit, because they never have to commit, ever. And that's just bad game design.
If Sonic is getting walled by Marth or armored through by Bowser, he's doing it oh so very wrong. He can just boost dance around Marth's short-duration hitboxes and wait for a pattern, then strike [or hit him once and run away for 8 minutes], and he should be grabbing Bowser nearly every time. Falcon shouldn't be outmaneuvering Sonic ever.
And if people are gonna say "Well, why don't YOU break the character?" Frankly, it's not fun. I've never enjoyed playing Sonic in any game. If people really were convinced Sonic is bad [I think he was the theoretically best character in every patch with unlimited boost, although he had an extremely high skill level required to make that happen] and I had my setup on me, I'd be willing to try to break Sonic's boost enough to get him nerfed if that's what it took, but the idea is thoroughly unappealing, because attempting to show why a toxic character is toxic is not something that's fun to me.
Glyph said:
3.Q Pichu?
This is reasonably fair, but people will try to discuss how much better is too much... is Melee Fox vs Peach too much? Melee Fox vs Pichu? Brawl MK vs Ganondorf? 1.00 Diddy vs 1.00 Sheik [Smash 4]? There DOES need to be a line drawn, but I think I can agree that the line may be drawn too far back.
Also, didn't realize how hard Kirby got hammered (<_<).
That's sorta how Minus works now... if it's broken, remove it and replace it with something less stupid. RIP 50% Firefox, Falco's reflector, Warlock Punch, ROB's nair, and so many more victims...
I feel like the new patch promotes Kirbycides, which I think was the opposite of the intention of the devs.
My 2 cents [take 'em or leave 'em] on top 10 characters:
Spacies Lucario Dedede are all strong top 10 candidates (5), as are Link [those bombs still kill WAY too early... yay Peach having a nigh-unwinnable-MU], MK [dair kills at zero because it chains into itself as far as I can tell], Olimar [stage hazard incarnate], Sheik [even with Vanish oddities, she's amazing], Sonic [still can kill them offstage at like 15% at ledge height with dair... ACTUAL METEOR CANCEL WHEN], Toon Link [he's just amazing and has range and combos and still great KO power, unlike Kirby who has no range], Yoshi [dunno if his usmash is still safe on shield, but it was and it was dumb], Pit [side+B!}, and maybe Falcon and Luigi. That also ignores people who I think aren't top 10, but are probably better than Kirby [Peach, Pikachu, Pichu, Marth, Mario, Wario, Ivysaur, ZSS, Samus, etc.]
ALSO, heavy hitters killing the early 100s means they're doing it wrong. Falco kills in the early-mid 100s [around 130]. Ganondorf should be KOing around 80 or earlier, Bowser should as well probably, Falcon kills around 80 if he's doing well, Fox can kill around 100, Snake can kill well before 100, Wolf can kill well before 100, I've died to Yoshi stuff when I died off the top by a triple uair combo at 61% after the third uair,... Kirby's KO power was consistent [very valuable], but it was never very early unless you hit someone with hammer or charged fsmash, at which point you earned the early kill.
My main problem with the Kirby inhale cancel that wasn't utilized very often(although Thor can back me up when I say this since I at least tried to implement this into my game) was the fact that, mid combo, Kirby could get a piss-easy regrab into his combo starter throws or his kill uthrow. I believe I once chained an uair into an inhale dthrow on a lower platform on Battlefield, into a fair, into inhale uthrow on the top platform. Inhale cancel basically gave Kirby a tether grab that worked in the air, and led into amazing throws.