Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!
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Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Nerds.
?0123456789?
Well-Known Member
This didn't work for me either. I don't know what to do if this works for everyone else. Maybe something else is wrong? I tried with different Wiis and different SD cards and neither worked.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Maybe you should give me one.
You know, so I can see the problem.
You know, so I can see the problem.
SunderStorm
Active Member
I've had the opinion for an long time that TL is actively making this game worse. He's just straight up infuriating. I see hardly any counter-play against his arrows unless you have a reflector. You're forced to tiptoe around his arrows and whenever you get hit by one he'll just put down another. Snake is fine because at least he has to spend time putting down his traps and that he's put in danger himself by them. If we had to keep TLs arrows like this I'd just buff the arrows individually and make it a max 1 count. I imagine TLplayers just having an all right time doing whatever they're doing while the players that they're playing against have no fun at all.
I'm just gonna divulge my Falcon game here because I'm bored
Offensive Tools (neutral game):
- Dash->Crouch->Sliding Jabs: Covers sidesteps completely but is punished by shield. Good for catching your opponent off guard because mach speed jabs op.
- Dash->Crouch->Grab: Covers shield but is beat if they call you out and just put out a good hitbox for you to run into.
- Dash Attack: Generally unsafe on block but if you space it correctly, you can end up behind them and they won't be able to punish you. The caveat is that if you consistently delay your dash attack to do this and they call you out on it, they can call you out and just hit you.
- Dash->Shorthop uair/nair: Both mostly serve the same purpose but cover different areas. Loses to shield. Can beat or get beaten by sidestep depending on timing. Not too different from dash attack, but is nice just as another tool to get in.
- Dash Dancing: Just run around like an idiot and wait for your opponent to freak and and be an idiot and then tackle him.
- Falcon Kick: Big damage and kill potential if they're high enough %. Use when they're not expecting it and you don't think they can react to it. You can be shield grabbed out of this. They can also tech the ending of it, denying you your follow up. Follow ups is usually dair, but bair works too if they're DIing behind you. Falcon Kick-> Knee works on bigger targets if they dont DI behind you, like Bowser/DK (and is also pretty damn sick to just see in general). Falcon Kick -> Usmash works too but is hard to hit.
- Raptor boost: Pretty simple, punish a projectile or kill them if they're at high %. Careful though, for a lot of characters and depending on your spacing even if they throw a projectile and you intend to punish with this move, they can just block and then punish you back. The rule of thumb is that if they expect raptor boost, don't use it because it won't work.
- Raptor Boost: If you can sideb to get back onto the ledge or stage without being punished, do it.
- Falcon Kick: If you're offstage and being actively threatened and you can Falcon Kick without killing yourself, do it then jump and up-b. Likely they won't be able to hit you and you'll make it back.
- Uair: You can try this to get them off your ass offstage, but beware if it trades with a meteor you're pretty done (damn you Falco).
- Utilt: *mostly* safe and can net you an easy kill if they get hit by it. Use to call them out on dropping off the ledge and jumping back on.
- Runoff bair: Most of the time they expect a dair so this can catch them off guard and stage spike them if they're not ready for it.
- Dair: If you're opponent is smart they'll recover low so you won't get to use this but otherwise go for it.
- Against some characters (cough cough Falco), edge guarding (especially if you go ham and go down there with them) is extremely dangerous and probably more trouble than it's worth.
- Utilt true comboes into your jab3 which leads into your bnb so if for whatever reason you can manage to hit this attack go for it.
- Downsmash is surprisingly more useful than it first seems. Pretty much safe on block but punishable otherwise.
- Pivot Fsmash can be used to straight up call dash attacks and some other things. You should be dash dancing a lot so there may be opportunities to get this in.
- Dash-> Sliding Usmash is a thing but I wouldn't advise using it often.
So you want to be on the offensive (as you do in general in this game imo). Use your offensive tools to mixup your opponent. Most if not all of them lead into your bnb, which is some combination of tackles, nairs, uairs, and knee(s). With all the hitstun at your disposal, you can basically freestyle however you like after you've hit them with something. Run around a lot, because if you didn't notice half the tools I listed up there involve dashing. More or less there's an advantage triangle between the defensive options your opponent has and your offensive options. You basically choose an options based on if you think they're going to sidestep, shield, or attack.
Weaknesses:
Falcon is the perfect weight to get comboed, so either he's doing the comboes or he's getting comboed. It's pretty easy for him to eat a string that gets him off the stage and then mercilessly gimped/meteor smashed. Learn to pocket your jump if you want to survive in these situations. Despite having raptor boost, Falcon still has not much of an answer to projectile zoning so you kind of just have to take it up the butt until they mess up and you can get in.
Falcon Punch:
Falcon Punch.
Bad matchups:
I don't know most of the matchup chart for what I do know:
Sheik: Will ftilt you for years and then fair chain you to death. Is hard to catch and when she catches you you're pretty much done.
Falco: Will dair chain you if you're caught offstage for deaths no matter what % you're at. You don't have a good answer to his lasers or reflector, or most of the time his side-b.
Toon Link: Most of your game revolves around mobility, and his arrows completely shut this down. Do not play Falcon against this character.
Pit: I haven't explicitly played this but I feel like Pit has all the tools to gimp Falcon to hell and back.
Gripes:
Falcon's jump cancel on Falcon Kick is problematic. This attack is hard to react to, hard to punish (albiet possible), and has a lot of payoff. The risk/reward is simply not there (and I feel like this is present in a lot of characters in Brawl Minus). I would change the jump cancel to be on hit so at least he can't just jump out of it when he misses.
Falcon Punch charge taunt is silly and it makes Captain Falcon stronger than he needs to be because of a random gimmick. I just don't find this necessary. Admittedly, part of this is that I'm too lazy to input the stupid taunt so if this needs to be there I'd appreciate it if it was at least a bit easier to do. I feel like there shouldn't be an arbitrary execution barrier here.
Usmash: I feel like there's little reason to use Usmash. The hitbox on this attack is just pathetic now. I wouldn't say revert it to pre-nerf levels because that was silly, but perhaps (before+after)/2? I would trade Falcon Kick to only on hit jump cancel and Falcon's charge taunt for a better Usmash.
Last edited by a moderator:
Glyph
Moderator
I don't know much about falcon, but TL's arrows are super easy to just dtilt away. They clang just like any other projectile of their nature, so its a lot more about taking away his stage control and less about trying to dance around it.
Or, just pick bowser and crawl/dash everywhere. Arrows won't matter at all then.
Or, just pick bowser and crawl/dash everywhere. Arrows won't matter at all then.
SunderStorm
Active Member
The problem is that when you're dilting his arrows you're not fighting TL, which leaves him open to be doing whatever he damn pleases, which might be putting another arrow, throwing a bomb, or throwing a boomerang. If he's good, he'll just peg you with a boomerang while you're busy with his arrows and then proceed to combo you from there. Even if you manage to do it without getting punished for it, the act of removing said arrows basically removes any rush momentum you have on TL, which is what (I think) you should be doing to beat characters of his archetype.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I think 2 arrows that are buffed more would be great, if he could lay one bomb and laying the bomb extends the fuse to make it 20 seconds. But that's just me.
Also I can see that you don't like my Falco or Sheik Sunderstorm XD
I still think Falco should have back that extended charge animation with Firebird - reversing the flame and non-flame hitboxes would be cool (if workable) and adding in the saying is amazing, but really it's that you NEED ledge i-frames as most characters to hit him out of this attack at all (Captain Falcon) and that makes Falco almost ungimpable [Puff CAN gimp him via taunt but it's not foolproof (would be with the nerf actually...) and if you don't have i-frames you need an INSANE disjoint or else a projectile to stop his firebird - and if you hit him with a projectile he can just firebird again, unless it's a well-placed Luigi fireball, and even then he can often survive and firebird anyway].
Also I can see that you don't like my Falco or Sheik Sunderstorm XD
I still think Falco should have back that extended charge animation with Firebird - reversing the flame and non-flame hitboxes would be cool (if workable) and adding in the saying is amazing, but really it's that you NEED ledge i-frames as most characters to hit him out of this attack at all (Captain Falcon) and that makes Falco almost ungimpable [Puff CAN gimp him via taunt but it's not foolproof (would be with the nerf actually...) and if you don't have i-frames you need an INSANE disjoint or else a projectile to stop his firebird - and if you hit him with a projectile he can just firebird again, unless it's a well-placed Luigi fireball, and even then he can often survive and firebird anyway].
SunderStorm
Active Member
Well if you're just throwing barrels 24/7 then yeah that's kinda annoying. Otherwise even shenanigans like stage spike cargo throws is acceptable to me.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Falcon is nearly perfect as-is IMO. The Falcon Kick Jump Cancel doesn't need to be made on-hit only, and the Instant Falcon Punch super taunt should definitely not be removed. If anything, more characters should get such great secret taunts.
I would like to see Falcon's super taunt made easier to execute, like Lucario's. If you hit Up Taunt and Down Taunt too fast, Falcon will just twitch uselessly. Not a big problem at all, but it could be better.
I would like to see Falcon's super taunt made easier to execute, like Lucario's. If you hit Up Taunt and Down Taunt too fast, Falcon will just twitch uselessly. Not a big problem at all, but it could be better.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Well, I mean in exchange, we could slightly buff the range on his Usmash. The reason on making the falcon kick on hit only JC is the same reason why other attacks have been losing their auto cancel: those moves are too safe and have less counter play.
But I would agree as most do that falcon is pretty much perfect, with exception to making sure dthrow doesn't chain throw people endlessly.
If I recall, the reason why it's not a huge problem that falcon chain throws is because he is limited by the amount of stage he has. Then again, zamus could do the same thing with her dash attack and that was nerfed so...... Shouldn't falcons be by the same logic?
But I would agree as most do that falcon is pretty much perfect, with exception to making sure dthrow doesn't chain throw people endlessly.
If I recall, the reason why it's not a huge problem that falcon chain throws is because he is limited by the amount of stage he has. Then again, zamus could do the same thing with her dash attack and that was nerfed so...... Shouldn't falcons be by the same logic?
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Who throws barrels 24/7? You can't win that way with him. I just combo you til you die. Lmao
Ask anyone that has faced me.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
I am so tempted to say that I completely dominated Gold_TSG with my Ike and Ness, but I won't. Also, yeah, Gold is the DK combo master.
SunderStorm
Active Member
Hey would you mind writing a bit on how to play DK like what I did for Falcon? I'm curious to know what DKs general options are. I just use dash attack and his tilts a lot.
Also the reason I said that is because I'm in conflict with one of my friends on how DK "should" be played. I more or less play him as rushdown pressure, taking advantage of his big offensive hitboxes while my friend just wants to throw barrels 24/7. He swears that he's playing it optimally.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I prolly could at some point. What you need to remember is that barrels can be hit back at him, so they're far from optimal to spam. DK has an incredible combo game for a heavyweight, and he is only hard countered by one character that I've seen thus far, and that is Yoshi. Honestly, you'd get a far better idea of how great he is if you faced me and saw firsthand, cause he has so many options that require more visual explanation than than textual.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Sunderstorm is rather like me - any tactic that isn't explicitly a glitch (IDC) is legit (including ledge-hogging). So he might be frustrated (like I am) but I doubt he'll hate it (like I don't).
Also I'm learning to play Wolf to better deal with fast combo machines like Captain Falcon, and I'm improving my Falco utilt combos. Expect more combos from my Falco (if I ever get Wi-Fi setup access
].Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing secret taunt removed in exchange for a stronger (single hit, 25%) version of his Smash 64 Falcon Punch - awesome combo finisher and much more usable than the current one sans secret taunt. But that's just me. Also I've never had the twitching issue, but whatever.
What... what does Yoshi do to beat DK?
Also Olimar is not exactly the easiest for DK... and I think Pikachu isn't fun either (but I never tried him against you). Wolf has potential since they'll just combo each other back and forth forever, and I think Wolf probably can win the neutral via smart lasers and spacing DK about the same as DK spaces Wolf, probably even. Also what about MAX ROB?
Also, for this so-called dthrow CG Falcon has, I want whoever is testing it to mash nair on Yoshi while doing the CG - Sunderstorm and I tried it and we couldn't get the regrab (even via grab armor) if Yoshi was trying to nair ASAP.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Hard counter. I can beat good Falcos, Pikachus and I juggle Wolf for days. I came close to beating Glyph's Rob as well. I have yet to fight a good Olimar.
BC's Yoshi is the first to hard counter my DK because of the zoning power of those eggs. The fact that they linger and out-prioritize pretty much everything DK has makes them an insane problem, not to mention his superior grab range and jumps. DK simply doesn't have many answers to Yoshi like he tends to against others (and I suppose I don't have the best experience in matches against good Yoshis).
BC's Yoshi is the first to hard counter my DK because of the zoning power of those eggs. The fact that they linger and out-prioritize pretty much everything DK has makes them an insane problem, not to mention his superior grab range and jumps. DK simply doesn't have many answers to Yoshi like he tends to against others (and I suppose I don't have the best experience in matches against good Yoshis).
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Uh...
Is Lucario programmed to teabag after a kill?
He teabagged me 5 times in 1 match.
FIVE GODDAM TIMES.
Is Lucario programmed to teabag after a kill?
He teabagged me 5 times in 1 match.
FIVE GODDAM TIMES.
Maybe you're just very teabag-able?
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
I'm pretending I didn't notice that.
?0123456789?
Well-Known Member
Is there a new release with bug fixes supposedly coming out any time soon? Being in the dark about releases kinda sucks. I always have this strange feeling that one day I'm gonna come here and find out that this mod is dead.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
I worry about that too.
Who's even working on Minus anymore? The only Staff Members officially listed under "Members" are Pin, Sammi, and Thunda, and I haven't seen the latter two around in a long time. Thunda is done with Minus IIRC. Sammi was working on Subspace Emissary stuff last I heard, and it seemed promising...
Kienamaru is still around, but seems to be working on a custom build more than the next official one.
Glyph and Gold_TSG quit the Minus Backroom. Glitch retired from Minus long ago...
I haven't heard anything from SAHunterMech in a long time, either.
@Pin Clock: What's going on? Don't just let Minus stagnate and die. Please hand the reins over to someone who's willing to put in the time and effort to move Minus forward, if you no longer can or just don't want to. You've done a great job so far, but maybe it's time to put someone else in charge.
@Kienamaru obviously cares a lot about Minus, and he's the most active developer on this board. I think he deserves to be the next head of Minus, if he wants the job.