Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
But is this actually possible?
Oh god melee sheik the chain grabbing destroyer of mid-tier in Minus. MFox vs -Fox.
Oh god melee sheik the chain grabbing destroyer of mid-tier in Minus. MFox vs -Fox.
Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
MFox vs PMFox
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
^Mfox wins. Most pm characters shitty versions of their melee selfs.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
So Ike is better in Melee?
Ike wasn't in Melee
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Great, now I suppose you're going to tell me Snake wasn't either?
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
WHY IS THE WORLD SO CREUL?
Thor
Well-Known Member
Bowser can literally armor through everything and punish nado hardcore, if Ganon gets a hit in MK is so light he's gonna die, 'Zard has his insane nair and stealth rocks (and Fly OoS is sooo good), Mario isn't so gimpable which was half his issue in vBrawl (plus his FLUDD can let him mess with Tornado and so on), and his attacks have better range...
Ok first things first - Pikachu was even in vBrawl with MK. Now Pikachu's Thunder meteors, which makes it INSANE for edgeguards, as does his dair. His t-jolt is even better for camping, his dash attack is MUCH better, skull bash is better, and QA is much better. Pikachu beats vBrawl MK in more or less a landslide.
Samus I don't know about, ZSS probably wins with recovery buffs and her insane power boosts.
Also, Falco would utterly destroy vBrawl MK - all his old strengths except the CG, none of the weaknesses. Lucario would wreck him with his better recovery and great moveset still, and Sheik would crush him in a landslide. He would also be throughouhly beaten in by Squirtle's armor, I should think.
You seem to think vBrawl MK is this amazing entity - he's good, but Minus has buffed these characters FAR beyond what vBrawl MK could handle now, even if he copied over his Minus recovery and got to have the extra hitstun [he'd be affected by it himself too much].
And don't get me started on ROB.
Thor
Well-Known Member
That's just not true, but I have class now so if you don't believe me I'll try to explain but this is quick.
Also, he'd die from being hit once by like half the cast - and if he only has Minus recovery, but not Minus cancels on that, his nado and drill rush are downright terrible, DC is mediocre then too - only Shuttle Loop is fine. Anyway, explaining time:
His ftilt wouldn't do much for his combos with no JC (I think Minus added one). Yeah he'd hit you but I don't think he gets real followups from it - if he does then group ftilt with my explanation of his other tilts.
His uair adds a lot of percent, but if he doesn't get the off-the-top via nado (Which I believe can be escaped), he has to fall all the way down AND get 34 frames of lag while most characters can fastfall down faster and punish. His uair -> shuttle loop would just get him extra percent and stuff would go to neutral.
His fair and bair aren't any worse than Jigg's really, and you can SDI them and punish his endlag. Nair is just nair, KO move at high percents but that's like Standard Minus. His jab sucks, though his usmash, dtilt, and utilt could start combos, but he wouldn't have the KO power to finish them as zero-deaths unless you have terrible DI - or unless he juggles you way offstage, but he won't be able to chase far enough if you DI well (his air speed is slow outside of jumps). So I guess he MIGHT be able to juggle you off every time, IF he gets the right combo starter AND reads your DI well every single time - that's hard to do. His smashes are also weak for Minus levels (except maybe dsmash, but that won't combo to anything and isn't easy to combo into).
He has good dair gimps with his vBrawl dair though.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
You are right that ftilts do little more than have range and up the foes damage. Jab is also certainly useless as anything else but maybe an edge gaurd. And fsmash is simply outclassed by dsmash.
I don't think that you can be allowed to assume that the opponent will just DI out of all his attacks though, as I've hardly ever seen that happen with my encounters or usage of MK. I've seen it done but never consistently since fair and bair come out fast and link quickly. The only reason they escaped is because they basically at the edge of he attack already. Even if this isn't true, I have better reason disagreeing with you.
Actually, his dimension cape should be even better in vbrawl than minus as a recovery. Recall that MK has lost jump height in minus and his air speed has been adjusted to be a little slower I believe. I know for certain that he is also heavier in minus. His air game is much better in vbrawl than in minus for this same reason, as is his recovery. Dimension cape also gets that stupid glitch back.
Why are we talking about this again? Hypothetical situations is much gay.
I don't think that you can be allowed to assume that the opponent will just DI out of all his attacks though, as I've hardly ever seen that happen with my encounters or usage of MK. I've seen it done but never consistently since fair and bair come out fast and link quickly. The only reason they escaped is because they basically at the edge of he attack already. Even if this isn't true, I have better reason disagreeing with you.
Actually, his dimension cape should be even better in vbrawl than minus as a recovery. Recall that MK has lost jump height in minus and his air speed has been adjusted to be a little slower I believe. I know for certain that he is also heavier in minus. His air game is much better in vbrawl than in minus for this same reason, as is his recovery. Dimension cape also gets that stupid glitch back.
Why are we talking about this again? Hypothetical situations is much gay.
Last edited by a moderator:
You could always test this theory... just remove Metaknight's .pac and motiobetc from his folder...
Should we... Should we tell him?
Thor
Well-Known Member
Because you all play vBrawl and enter tournaments in it like me.
Oh wait...
I understand what he can do - he'd be outranged, outprioritized, and beat down in Minus. He'd certainly be a strong character in Minus, but he would in no way beat most of the cast, unlike Sneak's claim (Seriously Pikachu would beat the crap out of him, as would Falco, Lucario, ROB, and Sheik - no idea about Dedede because I don't know enough about Minus Dedede - oh and Link would beat him badly too).
Or else, when I finally get my Wi-Fi-compatible Wii back, someone fight me in vBrawl with MK. Nothing Minusy in the whole game - just X as MK and me as one of my vBrawl mains. Because I need to see someone walk the walk if they're gonna talk the talk about a game I think most people besides me here don't play.
NEWB said:
Maybe he falls faster in Minus (that would improve his vertical durability) but he lost weight in the transition, he's heavier in vBrawl. Glitch is banned in all real tournaments (or he is in a few) and that's not counted for any of his metagame - if someone's telling me that's the reason vBrawl MK would win, well no crap that's like telling me why Melee Sheik would beat everyone if she had Dedede's grab range and her CG worked on all characters lol.
Glyph
Moderator
Thor don't get mad no one takes your opinions seriously when you present them all as certain facts and you've given us no reason to trust your opinions other than 'i enter vbrawl tournaments'. Link me to a tourney you topped at with real competitive players or otherwise back up your credibility, otherwise your claims of MK being not that bad are gunna get laughed off as they have been already.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Let's talk about something REALLY important:
How the Backroom is going to add Cole in Minus 4.0.
How the Backroom is going to add Cole in Minus 4.0.
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
.....At least I'm in class, so I miss all the conversations that honestly lead to an abyss....
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Who said anything about jokes?
Thor
Well-Known Member
I should stop using the word priority entirely, because people don't understand what it really means. Do yo understand what priority is? This isn't a facetious question but a real concern. Here's what I understand the term priority to mean.
There are r3 types of priority: normal/aerial/transcendant which is directly related to the law of high/low priority which both have zero relationship to range [and which people mistake for priority - often along with hitbox placement]. MK having transcendent priority on most of his stuff has already been shown to be a drawback (TL arrows, Link any projectile, he can't clank them except with his DA), and his range isn't really as helpful in a game where everyone else has landing lag matched to his [and at last check, Marth fair outranges his own fair, much as Pikachu fsmash outranges his ftilt and I believe fsmash as well]. He'd be outprioritized because his non-transcendent hitboxes (namely nado) are much easier to outprioritze via the law of high and low priority [attack buffs], so it would be much easier for certain attacks to kick him out of nado (Turnips, bombs I believe would work, some other grounded normals (I think Falcon ftilt would have the strength to hit him out of nado now).
As for my claim about MUs: Falco can now do everything he could in vBrawl to hurt MK, except he's not going to get gimped and he can teleport in - he also has a stronger fsmash, stronger usmash, and a MUCH better fair and reflector which means unlike in vBrawl [though fair still is bad for trying to attack someone who also has hitboxes out], which means he's able to safely be in the air facing forward against MK and KO him faster. He can also actually try to gimp MK much more safely now, and he can also use all kinds of tricks with Phantasm. It wouldn't be a fair fight, for vBrawl MK. At BEST it would be even, because MK would have a strong combo game, but Falco still would be able to always be able to mash jump if they aren't frame-perfect (true) combos, and he has his own damage-racking tools that already make him a solid character in Minus suited well to beat MK.
I've also explained Pikachu, who has buffs on certain moves and key buffs on t-jolt and thunder that would allow Pikachu to once again beat or go even with vBrawl MK.
Also if people want to do that, when I get back I'll fight someone's vBrawl MK, either ported into Minus (so susceptible to Minus hitstun but otherwise the same) or in vBrawl (where I won't be using characters who are buffed up and he would be the best character).
If you disagree with how I think the MU would play out, tell me what's wrong with the pictures I paint.
Considering you've given me nothing either, I can see why this will go nowhere. But I've said it above and I'll say it again - whenever I can finally get my Wii back (bleh parents not letting me bring it to college right away), I'll fight anyone's vBrawl MK, in vBrawl or in Minus.
Also, link me to a tourney you topped at with real competitive players or otherwise back up your Brawl creds, otherwise your claims of MK being so bad I'm going to keep laughing off like I have already, while continuing to cite facts and theory-craft on the actual MU instead of axiomatically reaffirming "BUT IT'S VBRAWL MK HE'S SOOOO SCARY!!!" Because none of you (except Kien, who I'm sort of assuming slings around priority as a misnomer like so many other people, but thanks because I may have misjudged) have provided real reasons except "HE CAN ZERO-DEATH!" So can Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, ROB, Jiggs, and other Minus characters, but people don't point them out. And I think debating the theory (or playing it out, if I only had a Wii) is much better than saying "I'm M2K so I'm right!" I've pointed out why the MUs would have improved from Brawl - if you believe he would still dominate, explain to me why they haven't improved or would now be worse.
I live in MN, we don't have much in the way of Brawl competition and no one before I left cared to record our Brawl stuff, but I have taken a game or two off the top MK in our PR and took 5th at the one tournament I could make (I could find the SWF results - me beating the guy was in friendlies though so it wouldn't help much).
Oh wait I'm not allowed to hold people to the same standards they try to hold me, is that it? Well I've made various claims to support my stance, you are just like "MK is hard" - if he's really so bad [strong], then surely you can explain to me in no uncertain terms why my theorycraft is wrong and how the MU actually looks?