Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Woah. Heel there Fido.
Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
Thor you're wrong about priority too... outside of the ones you named there's also projectile priority. Priority is based on an 8% difference between attacks. But Metaknight ignores that rule entirely as all of his attacks outside of dash attack and Mach tornado have a special transcendent priority. I'm not talking about disjoint which you seem to be placing in the discussion. MK's range has nothing to do with how well he'd do against someone like Pikachu. His tilt is outranged by his smash sure, but he can throw his second tilt before Pika's smash even comes out so... there's that scenario. But anyway, I'm not a part of this really.
Glyph
Moderator
And then Thor deflected the entire argument with the classic 'well what about YOU' argument we all know and love from our grade school days.
http://smashboards.com/members/dtj-glyphmoney.43187/
Smashboards member for ~8 years, modded OTL (online tournament listings) for around 2/3 of those. Competed regularly with the likes of Dabuz and Salem, along with a host of other guys who went on to do a lot of professional stuff. I hosted a sizable number of tournaments there as well, the experience from which I put towards my BDOT series here.
As for tourney results I don't have an abundance to point at since the old threads are long since buried, but my most notable performance was a very close set against ChuDat where I lost 2/1 after getting caught against a ledge for a jab infinite game 3. I did win the majority of the friendlies we played afterwards, and even got my Kirby friend in to play friendlies with her hero which was really fun.
So, I'm not talking out of my butt. I've been doing this pretty long time now, and since I was kind enough to elaborate on my background I'd like for you to do the same man.
http://smashboards.com/members/dtj-glyphmoney.43187/
Smashboards member for ~8 years, modded OTL (online tournament listings) for around 2/3 of those. Competed regularly with the likes of Dabuz and Salem, along with a host of other guys who went on to do a lot of professional stuff. I hosted a sizable number of tournaments there as well, the experience from which I put towards my BDOT series here.
As for tourney results I don't have an abundance to point at since the old threads are long since buried, but my most notable performance was a very close set against ChuDat where I lost 2/1 after getting caught against a ledge for a jab infinite game 3. I did win the majority of the friendlies we played afterwards, and even got my Kirby friend in to play friendlies with her hero which was really fun.
So, I'm not talking out of my butt. I've been doing this pretty long time now, and since I was kind enough to elaborate on my background I'd like for you to do the same man.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
OK. I won't be asking for that guy anymore.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Projectile priority is transcendent priority, except for special cases like Pikachu t-jolt where it's regular priority (or else name me a projectile that is not transcendent and not regular priority - such a thing does not exist).
I've already highlighted transcendent priority - it's where attacks don't clank out but pass right through - MK's ftilts will trade, but Marth ftilts will clash because of transcendent priority (I really did already talk about transcendent). Also drill rush and none of his grabs have transcendent priority. His second tilt wouldn't hit Pikachu either - Pikachu fsmash has greater range than MK's ftilt.
Well considering you had zero cred to anything for what you said before, I wanted some proof. Thanks.
You strike me as a jaded not-MK main who quit Brawl because of MK [I'd guess a ROB main, which would explain a lot]. A lot of what you say just reminds me of some of Xyro's crap.
I've watched various videos for several years and started getting into things about a year ago, and entered a few tournaments, but been unable to actually locate events and really only got to attend one, where I placed 5th of 16 (I hit the 2nd and 3rd place guys back to back, and the third place guy I probably should've beaten). I have played RRR on a fairly regular basis in Melee and Brawl and I've placed ok in a few Melee events (took 13th of 40-ish, outplacing one guy on the PR and upsetting a Sheik main in loser's bracket). If I had people to actually play Brawl with on a regular basis I would - as it is, I just do a lot of reading on the game, including MK - he has a close MU against Falco and Snake and from what I've read, he's even with Pikachu (and I've read both sides - the "50-50" side is more compelling). I don't spend time practicing any of the games, except for two days once where I practiced wavelanding for a bit, an hour where I did some DACUS's, and when I play games and try to implement stuff I learn, because I don't feel that interested in improving in Melee (very few tournaments and not my preferred game) and had no reason to practice Brawl with events being non-existent. Given that I don't really practice, my skill level is probably higher than it should be [a few people have already noted how untechnical I am elsewhere].
You've also still not addressed any of my reasoning for why MK would beat the characters I listed and explained my reasoning for - reasoning out the MU > ad-homs and arguments from authority.
Thor
Well-Known Member
No NEWB this isn't how competing in Smash actually works - Glyph just likes saying stuff without backing it up with any sort of actual argument, and I have to call him out over and over to ever get a response.
Things are usually far more civil if people will actually lay out their cases instead of saying "You're wrong because I have more experience than you" [which is a load of bullcrap - experience playing the game for along time/being good does not necessarily mean knowledge of the game and vice versa - see Prog as one example of this].
Smash players with egos? What a concept!
Glyph
Moderator
Nah it's cool, I watched some videos and read some stuff so I'm an expert on the matter. I also have placed moderately high at some local events to further establish my credibility.
Though seriously, I don't want you to get the wrong impression on how smash communities are Newb. In person tourneys are some of the most fun things you can do, and are filled with nice people (for the most part). I'm specifically referring to the forum end of things, where people will argue over most anything and in a MUCH more aggressive manner than I do. Its almost nostalgic to see people not used to that here since everyone I know from the day are prepared to do some trash talking and not at all bothered when someone else does it to them.
Though seriously, I don't want you to get the wrong impression on how smash communities are Newb. In person tourneys are some of the most fun things you can do, and are filled with nice people (for the most part). I'm specifically referring to the forum end of things, where people will argue over most anything and in a MUCH more aggressive manner than I do. Its almost nostalgic to see people not used to that here since everyone I know from the day are prepared to do some trash talking and not at all bothered when someone else does it to them.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Yeah I talk major shit on fourms and when I play but I stay nice elsewhere.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
That's what the government WANTS you to believe...
Thor
Well-Known Member
I've also played FOW's MK, something I probably should have mentioned (And if you don't know who FOW is you just lost all credibility you ever had and probably ever will have). MK's not that bad - though I guess saying that to a jaded ROB main is like telling a Fox main that ICs aren't that bad lol.
You can see MK is terrifying from the perspective of your character, sure, but he's not that bad from the perspective of other characters (Pikachu, Falco), and those two received important buffs with respect to their MK MUs.
Also Ocean's beaten M2K, the MU clearly isn't unwinnable - Olimar would also go to town on the man, as would Diddy with his buffed recovery.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
I tried adding those codes to the top of the existing NFST code in the 3.Q codeset, and moving the NFST code to the bottom of the GCT.
Result: New Footstool Triggers no longer work offline. Did not test online.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
Thor, you really don't know what MK is capable of. He would fit perfectly as a baseline for MK (as in, he would fit perfectly now, but he isnt broken enough to be called,"minusized").
Pikachu still has to get in or play hit and run as MK would slice him up w/o ever having to worry about pika gettin in because of disjoint range and never clanking priority. The down-b has and always was a risk to play as if you miss, you're mostly left open for a up-b, or combo.
Falco still would get gimped hard as heck, he can only recover in 2 ways, which is covered by mk options. Trying to up-b from below? Ledge hog ----> Nair/Up-b. Side b to the edge? Nair/ well time up-b.
Olimar, pit, Diddy kong, and others I don't know would give MK some crazy problems, but really, the cast isn't strong enough to be considered crazy broken. Heck, I'd say by representation, marvel 2, vampire Savior, jojo bizarre adventure, and guilty gear have a more broken cast.
(Caught your bowser and Ganon comment. There's like no move that they have that could challenge MK in the neutral game, and if they hit, it's to the offstage game with them which equals death. Also, MK survives well past the typical lightweight percent and goes into middleweight because of his fast aerials canceling the momentum. just saying.
Pikachu still has to get in or play hit and run as MK would slice him up w/o ever having to worry about pika gettin in because of disjoint range and never clanking priority. The down-b has and always was a risk to play as if you miss, you're mostly left open for a up-b, or combo.
Falco still would get gimped hard as heck, he can only recover in 2 ways, which is covered by mk options. Trying to up-b from below? Ledge hog ----> Nair/Up-b. Side b to the edge? Nair/ well time up-b.
Olimar, pit, Diddy kong, and others I don't know would give MK some crazy problems, but really, the cast isn't strong enough to be considered crazy broken. Heck, I'd say by representation, marvel 2, vampire Savior, jojo bizarre adventure, and guilty gear have a more broken cast.
(Caught your bowser and Ganon comment. There's like no move that they have that could challenge MK in the neutral game, and if they hit, it's to the offstage game with them which equals death. Also, MK survives well past the typical lightweight percent and goes into middleweight because of his fast aerials canceling the momentum. just saying.
Uh.. Thor. Link's projectiles clang, Mario's Fireballs clang, TL's projectiles clang, Luigi's fireballs clang, Ness's PK Thunder clangs, Lucas' PK Thunder clangs, Lucario's Aura sphere clangs... I don't think I need to keep going. I don't like tier lists, but there's a reason MK is placed on S tier in Vbrawl. Why do you feel that a smart MK would do his tilt combo out of range to hit with any of them?
Thor
Well-Known Member
Those projectiles all are normal priority. That's why they clang.
There are only two types of priority - normal priority and transcendent priority. Normal priority follows the law of high and low priority and is different in the air and the ground. Transcendent priority ignores the other priority rules. Projectiles that are not transcendent follow grounded priority rules. The law of high and low priority - if a move deals at least 9% more damage than another move, it will be outprioritzed and the weaker move will not affect the stronger move. Otherwise they clang.
So MK's attacks (minus a few) are transcendent.
Samus charge shot acts as a non-transcendent projectile (you can clank out a fully charged one with Bowser's later half of fsmash, or with Ganondorf fair, but not Marth dtilt).
Falco lasers are a transcendent projectile [as are Fox's].
Every projectile you named above is a non-transcendent projectile (that's why they follow the law of high and low priority and are clankable).
Link's attacks are (I believe entirely) not transcendent.
Marth's moveset is not transcendent.
Mach tornado is a little weird, as are a few other notable attacks, but everything you've listed here follows the rules I've given.
Don't believe me? Here's an article on it - you can do some of the tests they explain the results of (Bowser fsmash versus charge shot, Marth fsmash versus charge shot, etc.) if you don't believe the article from which I've pulled what I know: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority
I'm also still waiting for Glyph to do actual arguing instead of simply trying to make arguments from authority and dismiss what I say without any explanation because he doesn't agree [I want him to explain why he thinks I'm wrong].
First things first, if we are putting Minus characters in vBrawl MK can pack up and go home, there is zero chance in hell of him beating Minus Falco in a vBrawl engine. But if we're putting him in the Minus engine, he can't momentum cancel because the game engine doesn't allow it - you can't have your cake and eat it too. So he's a lightweight like intended here. UNLESS everyone's been saying the whole time "If MK could airdodge out of hitstun and abuse Minus hitstun on everyone else, he'd win", and ok, well DUH!!! That's not what I've been arguing about though [and if that's what people were saying, well then pack up my arguments because we were never on the same topic to start).
Pikachu gets in in the vBrawl engine and Pikachu has a much better approach game in Minus with a few of its new tricks - MK can't even shut down Pikachu's approach in vBrawl from top players (See ESAM vs Ally at SKTAR 3), shutting down Minus Pikachu wouldn't happen at all. Pikachu's t-jolt is also much better for both camping and getting in, and for Thunder I was talking about edgeguarding and jab reset stuff - the meteor makes it useful more often then the old Thunder walls to stop his recovery, and the JC lets Pikachu use it with relative impunity as compared to vBrawl. His QA recovery is also much better because you don't have to QA directly onstage (the thing has a single frame of landing lag last I checked).
Falco getting gimped? LOL He's not even gimped that often in vBrawl if the Falco is good (go watch DEHF play, or maybe Bloodcross [he's not as good I don't think]) and he's got a pair of extra jumps to burn and a better firebird. MK isn't some god - he has slow airspeed and he can't cover all those options as easily as you make it out (And Falco can also just jump back onstage with all those jumps - if hit high, side+B high or something - he can also mixup sideB with his walljump - heck Melee Falco can recover against Jiggs unless Jiggs makes the perfect reads so there's not a chance Minus Falco would somehow be at a disadvantage offstage versus MK unless he's WAY too predictable).
Falco's onstage game is now much more scary with his zero-deathing fair and his phantasm being usable at any time, even after double lasers - things have only gotten better for Falco and they were already really, really good considering the cast as a whole.
Bowser's dair, RR through any attacks, up+B OoS. And unless they edited Bowser's grab release animation, Bowser would still have his grab release shenanigans that would give MK headaches since they would also combo into his RR - that's be like 2 grabs = stock if done right, or maybe even one).
Olimar really only loses to MK because of the massive gimping problems and some issues with rushdown - he'd now have a better sideB, significantly less gimping issues (if there is no super armor on whistle then he'd have moved sideways I guess), and dtilt as a great option to both run away and apply his own rushdown.
All of you massively overestimate vBrawl MK relative to the new options Minus characters have. MK is good, but he's not THAT good - he had a bunch of -1 MUs in vBrawl [and an even one] and they've only improved with Minus buffs.
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Thor
Well-Known Member
Unable to defend your position? Explains why you haven't said anything of value about vBrawl MK in Minus this entire time.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Things just got real.
I'm not that great with Vbrawl MK Thor, but I can face you with him in Minus if you'd like. I'm confident that he is still OP, even if he can't beat the Minus top tiers. Also, Link's only transcendant attacks are zair and aerial spin attack if I'm not wrong.