Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

[Gold_TSG]

The fact that he can cheese you in more ways than one makes it bad design. MK can do fine without it, as it has been said, so that begs the question of why he needs it to begin with? I don't even remember why it was added in the first place outside of "you gais this would be so cool." It doesn't benefit him in any way that he couldn't be buffed elsewhere to compensate for the loss (regardless of how dumb it is). Nothing about a powerful kill throw on a speedy character says "perfectly balanced." Just because he lost what made him broken in brawl doesn't mean you give him cheese to make up for it.

 

[Neville]

I believe Meta knight's uthrow is getting nerfed to do 25% but heal pummel is stupid.

 

[Valravn]

Let's say that he's a defensive player who only punishes.

Roll call, does anyone know anyone that does this in Minus? I've played against dozens of people at my weekly tournament, and you're describing some kind of unicorn. Maybe there's some guy who only plays Minus to win no matter what, and all he does is shield grab and zip around as Meta Knight. That would surprise me.

Nothing about a powerful kill throw on a speedy character says "perfectly balanced."

I don't think that was the aim, at least not at the time. The throw is really cool, but it could do something different and still be cool. A throw that actually carries someone up into the air would be legit.

 

[Thor]

You guys mentioning uthrow without talking about his pummel? The move that heals him, you know? That he can do every time he grabs you at least twice. Let's say that this MK isn't "fishing for grabs." Let's say that he's a defensive player who only punishes. You can challenge him in the air if you want to, but I don't know how you're gonna outprioritize or out speed him. Fighting him without projectiles or disjointed hitboxes pretty much means you'll lose the trade. MK specializes in the air, so challenging his strength isn't something most characters can pull off. If we want to be theoretical then let's say that someone is an exceptionally well timed MK who knows when to dodge and how to space perfectly. This will ensure that if he ever gets a lead (Not a stock lead) that he can hold that lead forever, regardless of taking combos to the face, all because he has a move that heals him that he can land repeatedly or combo into.

If you have any mashing skills whatsoever he doesn't get 2 pummels until at least 60+% unless you're only talking about pummels and not a throw followup, at which point he just got either 4 or 6% - that's soooooo devastating in Minus, when Falcon Kick -> dair -> knee does 40+% [and leads into another knee and the stock if they don't DI it right].

If you're getting 3 pummels, they're over 100% or bad - that thing is possibly the slowest pummel in the game.

Challenging him in the air is easy for most characters with a good bair or really good fair - see Link [zair/fair], Lucario [bair], Zelda [lol], Sheik [bair], Ness [fair], Lucas [fair], Falco [bair], Fox [side+b -> nair], Mario [bair], Falcon [bair], and so on. The key is to force him to retreat so that he has to be way offstage and then do it - it's jockeying and baiting in the air, but if you can force him to retreat he has to give up stage, giving you an advantage, or go above you where he now has to land [and dair is good but not THAT good].

You're grossly overexaggerating his pummel - it's very useful right in that 30% range when uthrow is about to KO you for saving your butt by like 1%, but it's not going to ever heal you enough to be substantial. I'd like you [or anyone] to prove me wrong because I've used the pummel and I've concluded it's only good for what I've said above [and at extremely high percents for getting back enough health to tank a sourspot KO move].

The fact that he can cheese you in more ways than one makes it bad design. MK can do fine without it, as it has been said, so that begs the question of why he needs it to begin with? I don't even remember why it was added in the first place outside of "you gais this would be so cool." It doesn't benefit him in any way that he couldn't be buffed elsewhere to compensate for the loss (regardless of how dumb it is). Nothing about a powerful kill throw on a speedy character says "perfectly balanced." Just because he lost what made him broken in brawl doesn't mean you give him cheese to make up for it.

I think it had to do with bat/vampire status or else somehow canon.

Powerful kill throws on speedy characters are broken? What do you call Falcon dthrow? Or is hitting a guaranteed followup really enough to justify it not being stupid? Or how about Sonic bthrow? Squirtle throws?

People on these boards get salty at the smallest things... then defend things that are legitimately unintended and broken as somehow good for the game. I don't understand you people at all.

 

[Neville]

People on these boards get salty at the smallest things... then defend things that are legitimately unintended and broken as somehow good for the game. I don't understand you people at all.

This.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Salt has nothing to do with anything with what I'm trying to explain. In my minus days, I have never once had an issue with MK, least of all with Dorf (complete role reversal). This is principal. Mentioning Falco for the billionth time has no relevance here because I'm not talking about follow ups or such things, which are silly in their own right, but I don't care as much. Falco's dthrow is not a kill throw, which is the topic of this discussion.

I don't understand how anyone can defend something that is so fundamentally broken and easy to abuse in the right hands. Explain to me exactly why he NEEDS this explosive kill throw over literally ANYTHING ELSE MORE APPROPRIATE.

 

[NEWB]

It IS being nerfed to only 25% unless plans have changed. There is that.

 

[Valravn]

Explain to me exactly why he NEEDS this explosive kill throw over literally ANYTHING ELSE MORE APPROPRIATE.

I don't think anyone is saying that he needs it. This debate appears to be between 'this move is broken' and 'this move is good but it doesn't make meta knight broken'.

 

[Thor]

Salt has nothing to do with anything with what I'm trying to explain. In my minus days, I have never once had an issue with MK, least of all with Dorf (complete role reversal). This is principal. Mentioning Falco for the billionth time has no relevance here because I'm not talking about follow ups or such things, which are silly in their own right, but I don't care as much. Falco's dthrow is not a kill throw, which is the topic of this discussion.

I don't understand how anyone can defend something that is so fundamentally broken and easy to abuse in the right hands. Explain to me exactly why he NEEDS this explosive kill throw over literally ANYTHING ELSE MORE APPROPRIATE.

I don't... what?

Falco's dthrow was never intended as a kill move? Did you mean Falcon dthrow and typo'd or what?

I've said it before - he's probably the easiest to kill character in the entire game and very swingy, and this helps him solidify leads slightly [but he's still liable to just up and die from 0% - dat Melee Falco syndrome]. It's also already being nerfed to do 25%, meaning this shouldn't KO until at least 50+% now. And it may the strongest KO throw, but it hurts him too, and as was mentioned earlier, if one is careful and practices they can tech it.

Followups are silly? So... we should just remove combos???

 

[Valravn]

My favorite part about this game is the almost 64 levels of combo. You can zero to death any character with any other character if you read them right. There's regular DI (instead of just SDI) and some more tech options in this game though, so the combos aren't quite as guaranteed.

 

[Gold_TSG]

The Falco thing is my bad. I was sleepy.

And no, I never said combos should be removed. Where you came up with that is beyond me. I said follow ups are silly, in the sense that a lot of chars have guaranteed combos that can kill. I grew to hate them in minus as much as I hate them in smash 4. If it doesn't feel earned, I don't like it. Mind you its not as prevalent in 4 outside of a few chars, but it's there.

 

[NEWB]

You mean like luigi's dthrow in smash 4? Yeah, I can almost forgive the insane follow ups after that, if not for the fact it leads into downb as well. If I had a nickel for every time I've seen Luigi kill from dthrow downb on YouTube. Jeez.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Pretty much, yeah. DI doesn't even help you in that situation cause the throw always puts you into position for something at all %s. It's brain dead, just like hoo-hah was and still is.

 

[NEWB]

For those that don't know, gold isn't joking. Luigi's dthrow is literally that stupid. Can get at least two attacks after a dthrow on any weight class regardless of how you DI. To be fair, down b after dthrow does take a little precision to get all and the final hit but even if you can manage to Di out of downb, you don't get to punish Luigi.

 

[Valravn]

Out of curiosity, what combos are absolutely guaranteed in Minus? So far I haven't found any that aren't escapable. Can't speak for Smash 4, haven't played it much and don't intend to.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I wish I had time or patience to list them all, but I'll give you a few: Dorf dthrow into wizkick (the reason it was nerfed in power), Ness dthrow into aerials, DK dthrow into jab (at low) or dash attack (mid to high) into aerials/punch. There's plenty more out there, so I'm sure the other members will help fill you in on those while I'm at work.

 

[NEWB]

I feel it's okay for some things to be guaranteed. There is just a very tricky line as to where too much is too much. Minus struggles with that, since it's trying to be on the more combo oriented end of that.

 

[Thor]

Incidentally, Luigi has guaranteed aerial shoryuken on the entire cast in Smash 4, but it's a percent-specific range [I believe it starts at 107%], at least according to one Luigi main on Smashboards.

Guaranteed stuff is bad? Oh c'mon, if you get hit by the setup move your opponent earned it. You might feel it's "cheap" or whatever but it's part of the game. Luigi dthrow down+b might piss you off, but he has pathetic airspeed, exploitable recovery, ridiculously low traction [I'm not sure he can actually punish long-range Pikachu fsmash on shield... I haven't seen any do it to me], and while he has a projectile, it's slow, telegraphed, and has enough endlag to exploit if he's read. And Luigi's down+B setup shouldn't even KO until over 110% [way higher if he's not operating on rage - I've survived it at 130% as Pikachu thanks to frantically tapping down then holding sideways for the final hit].

Would you just opt to remove kill throws entirely? That is, would you rather everyone "earn it" through some means other than a grab, whether the throw or the followup from the throw kills them?

Also Link Minus bombs must really piss you off [those things just KO at like 110%... I think they should KO at least 20% later personally, and 40% later would strike me as a lot more fair].

Kirby's dthrow into aerials is inescapable [except maybe at obscenely high percents], but you have to do fair or bair based on which way they DI [easy to do on reaction though]. Raptor Boost -> uair at zero percent is also completely unescapable [and he can knee most of the cast after raptor boost at zero, although he has to use his double jump versus most of the cast so he's not usually able to follow up].

I believe a perfectly executed dthrow uair as Falcon is guaranteed on everyone, but I can't say for certain [I know it's tricky for me to dthrow knee a Peach or Yoshi mashing nair, if I can hit it at all]. I'm unsure if Falcon uthrow actually combos or just pretend combos [it's another thing like Fox uthrow that feels like it doesn't function properly at all], but it might true combo with uair as well.

Falco's gatling combo is guaranteed as well, but I really don't think that's what Valravn is looking for.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Luigi is in the top 8 in smash 4 according to ZeRo's analysis of his records in tournaments, so that should tell you what he's capable of. As long as there's at least one thing to exploit, it'll give that char a serious edge. As for "extremely telegraphed," Luigi's fireballs are an excellent zoning tool, forcing you to do what he wants or to get hit and take more damage, bringing you ever so closer to that area of % where dthrow > d-B will get you. Not to mention people forget that his aerial u-B was nerfed in one of the patches, so it doesn't kill as early as the grounded version. Meanwhile, d-B drags you up towards the blast line before shooting you off. He's really pretty damn capable in 4. Can't say the same about Falco, sadly, try as I might to make him good.

 

[NEWB]

Gold, do you know about his Dair cancel, where if you land Falco's DAIR on frame one and immediately land afterwards, it auto cancels. This doesn't really help him since he can't setup for it well, just curious if you know.

Also, Luigi has decent enough recovery as long as he has his double jump. If anyone wants to see a competitive Luigi beat the shit out of everyone, there is always youtube.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I actually did not know about that. It doesn't sound like it helps him at all because it's next to impossible to connect it on frame one, and why are you using that laggy thing onstage anyway?

 

[NEWB]

I don't play falco, I just say it in a video. He gets guaranteed follow ups off it of course but I think the only setup for it is if they don't tech dthrow or something.

 

[Kien]

Let me steer this back on track and away from Smash 4. Minus is too safe. The majority of characters don't have to work for their KOs. Early KO throws on speedy characters is a bad design choice unless that character has horrible grab range (Peach) or horrible priority. (Sonic)

Typically, smaller characters are combo machines who can't survive long. They have easier to pull off followups but rarely do they lead into guaranteed KOs. There are some instances of lightweight combo characters in Minus who can do guaranteed combos into kills, Kirby, Squirtle, Sonic, and Zelda just to name a few. I think Sonic has the hardest time doing this though, as his combos require what basically amounts to extreme precision and luck outside of landing a dair after a bthrow HA. Zelda's require you to know her spacing and teleports well which take quick reaction times as well as reading DI. Kirby and Squirtle are just given free KOs off of some guaranteed setups, like many others in the cast. However, it does take some skill to pull off Kirby's combos from what I've seen as I couldn't perform them. Squirtle on the other hand is pretty easy bake. His wall of pains are easy and can lead into KOs regardless off your DI. Air control allows him to be unpunishable for the most part so he can just throw them out, and all of his moves are pretty stellar. Throws that kill unreasonably early or set up into high damage combos, KO moves that hit like mid power characters, he pretty much has it all. Then there's nair. But we already know about that.

I'd say that Falcon is a problem character simply because all of his combos are either going to lead to massive damage (40%+) or kill unless you DI it the ONE WAY that works. These combos are not only easy to setup, but guaranteed damage regardless of percent. It's lame to see that he can start a stock and end a stock with the same few moves. Falcon kick, Dthrow, gentlemen, dash attack. He doesn't really care about other combo starters. Falcon is supposed to be a stylish pick up and play character from what I gather. He seems far too safe and stale for his combos to be stylish though. If you aren't putting any risk into your actions then no one will be impressed to see it. If all your combos end the same way, then it loses cool factor sooner than later. It just becomes, "Oh I wonder how he's gonna knee me this time." or "Oh look, another dair combo."

 

[Thor]

Let me steer this back on track and away from Smash 4. Minus is too safe. The majority of characters don't have to work for their KOs. Early KO throws on speedy characters is a bad design choice unless that character has horrible grab range (Peach) or horrible priority. (Sonic)

Typically, smaller characters are combo machines who can't survive long. They have easier to pull off followups but rarely do they lead into guaranteed KOs. There are some instances of lightweight combo characters in Minus who can do guaranteed combos into kills, Kirby, Squirtle, Sonic, and Zelda just to name a few. I think Sonic has the hardest time doing this though, as his combos require what basically amounts to extreme precision and luck outside of landing a dair after a bthrow HA. Zelda's require you to know her spacing and teleports well which take quick reaction times as well as reading DI. Kirby and Squirtle are just given free KOs off of some guaranteed setups, like many others in the cast. However, it does take some skill to pull off Kirby's combos from what I've seen as I couldn't perform them. Squirtle on the other hand is pretty easy bake. His wall of pains are easy and can lead into KOs regardless off your DI. Air control allows him to be unpunishable for the most part so he can just throw them out, and all of his moves are pretty stellar. Throws that kill unreasonably early or set up into high damage combos, KO moves that hit like mid power characters, he pretty much has it all. Then there's nair. But we already know about that.

I'd say that Falcon is a problem character simply because all of his combos are either going to lead to massive damage (40%+) or kill unless you DI it the ONE WAY that works. These combos are not only easy to setup, but guaranteed damage regardless of percent. It's lame to see that he can start a stock and end a stock with the same few moves. Falcon kick, Dthrow, gentlemen, dash attack. He doesn't really care about other combo starters. Falcon is supposed to be a stylish pick up and play character from what I gather. He seems far too safe and stale for his combos to be stylish though. If you aren't putting any risk into your actions then no one will be impressed to see it. If all your combos end the same way, then it loses cool factor sooner than later. It just becomes, "Oh I wonder how he's gonna knee me this time." or "Oh look, another dair combo."

I got a double uair -> utilt -> dair -> falcon kick -> dair -> knee on BC [or something like that].

Minus being "too safe" is purely a matter of opinion. There are people who feel Melee is too safe, at least if you're playing a spacie [mash da shine button if you can force them to shield and if they're not a spacie GG, or something like that], and some think Smash 4 is very risky [although from what I can tell that group by and large plays Ganondorf or can't space]. I don't think Minus is too safe, given that the best style to play is generally with offense in mind [a few notable exceptions exist, but they are exceptions, not rules]. If the game made it too hard to punish, people would never get hit, since they could just throw stuff out and be fine, but outside of Sheik's up+B there's really nothing like that. There are many times when it's better to shield and look for an opening after than to actually outright contest with an aerial, suggesting there is plenty of risk involved.

Sonic's priority is fine, he just seems to have bad priority because people run into outstretched legs/fists with boost instead of spacing stuff. People love Boost in neutral but I've always thought of it as a combo/punish tool - and if it's used like that, you'll notice his bair and fsmash have plenty of range, while his fair's priority is no worse than Falco's [which isn't great but it's far from horrific].

I can't do Squirtle combos for the life of me, but Kirby's strike me as very intuitive. To each their own I guess.

A lot of uthrows in this game just don't work right [Fox, Falcon, Puff, Falco, Sheik's feels awkward to me when fthrow and bthrow work so well, there's more] so that reliable throw [dthrow] on Falcon is rather expected to be used a lot more than his other seemingly combo-oriented throw. And I can show you that he can do some cool stuff [I've seen dair -> nair -> uair -> reverse bair -> knee - and to see him combo all his aerials into each other is pretty sick], but it's often optimal to just use those moves [in effect, the issue Lucario suffers from]. He also has this awkward thing where nearly all his moves KO. This is why in another thread I suggested 64 usmash, 64 Falcon Punch, and [if I didn't say it, I'll say it now] knee being able to launch both ways - it'd lend itself to some flashier stuff, and also require a bit more precision.

 

[NEWB]

It's easy to say what we think minus is when the player base is as microscopic as it is. I steer closer to kien's opinion a bit but if that's the case, minus would need some overhauling again. This of course, may or may not be happening in 4.0.