Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

[NEWB]

There is not much to do about stage spiking with pit's upb either. Even if you tech it, pit can just fly away, or attack you for another potential stage spike, or maybe even just ledge snap to safety.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees how crazy Pit can be. lol

As for Bowser, I don't find much trouble against those characters since his dash and crouch have enough armor to tank many projectiles.

Pit is really the only difficulty considering I'll do something like Royal Rampage into Pit's side-b, resulting in my being tossed offstage, leaving me to grab the ledge to avoid his aerials, landing me in a great place for a stage spike or an inescapable ledge side-b from Pit.

 

[Valravn]

Characters can actually deal with that effectively. Air camping has holes.

Meta Knight's air chasing game has fewer holes than most, I think. Not sure what constitutes 'air camping'.

 

[Thor]

Meta Knight's air chasing game has fewer holes than most, I think. Not sure what constitutes 'air camping'.

Meta Knight is meant to rule the air [alongside Jigglypuff]. It's not obnoxious that he just chases you forever because that's how he's designed, and has drawbacks to compensate [featherweight, easily combo'd, slow airspeed, etc.].

If you're trying to say MK is broken, I'm disagreeing, because as convenient as it sounds to just chase someone in the air forever, he has to actually set that up, which is no cakewalk [although I'll admit Mach Tornado and Drill Rush are still really good]. If you're saying something else, I think we got our wires crossed somewhere.

 

[Valravn]

I didn't say anything about Meta Knight being broken in the air, I think he's a perfectly fine character that I have fun playing. I don't know where you got that impression.

He's probably one of the most 'balanced' characters in the game at the moment, I think. He has tons of good options, and his movement can be pretty technical if you want it to be. Even better, you can easily SDI out of a lot of his combo moves, so when you're playing him you get to constantly make meaningful decisions on how to follow up. (As opposed to a character like Sheik in melee, who for a lot of matchups can follow a pretty clear flowchart to get kills.)

What I was meaning to say: if you want a character who can deal with Pit in the air, Meta Knight is a good option. (It helps that he's fun as fuck.)

 

[Gold_TSG]

I wouldn't call MK balanced by any means, but he's certainly not vbrawl broken. The only issues I personally have with his lack of balance is the easykill up throw and how he has 4 means of recovery, all of which can be used in succession before he goes into helpless.

 

[Thor]

I wouldn't call MK balanced by any means, but he's certainly not vbrawl broken. The only issues I personally have with his lack of balance is the easykill up throw and how he has 4 means of recovery, all of which can be used in succession before he goes into helpless.

I think this just means MK is not meant to be gimped ever - he can back from anywhere with just those 4 moves, so the user must make a mistake in order to die off the bottom. You can still meteor smash him out of all of them though.

I think uthrow is mostly fine, but I see why many think it's broken.

For the record, I think Mario is well-balanced. And I tend to think Falcon is, but I'm not sure if that's actually true or just me wanting him to be [yes everything leads to knee, but almost every move can lead to a huge combo on Falcon]. I also tend to think Ness, Pikachu, and Marth are well-made [although the super armor on PK Thunder still seems a little silly to me, it's hardly broken].

 

[Valravn]

In practice, his up throw is just as likely to kill him as his opponent, and Meta Knight is light enough to die first a lot of the time. As for his recovery, I'd say it's more flexible than most but the distance of it is pretty irrelevant. Lots of characters can recover from practically any of the blast lines.

Marth cracks me up because of how silly looking his tipper hits are. You freeze in the air and then suddenly wobble off to the blast zone. You can practically SDI through him before you start moving. Falcon is a walking combo video; which side of the combo he's on depends largely on who gets the first hit.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Also curious as to whether Ike will keep his Aetherial Eruption, and whether it will be considered part of NSM, or a stored eruption. I don't mind seeing Razing Eruption go, though Aetherial Eruption was actually an incredibly efficient way to kill in my eyes, considering a few incidental Aethers will build it, and Aether otherwise leaves Ike open at the very end, with little follow-up.

I also thought it'd be fun for him to have the official FE Aether, where he has a strike on his way up from the final downward strike. It could be something like how Link can attack out of a forward roll, though this one would be a vertical retreating strike as opposed to a horizontal approaching strike. If he gets this move, Aetherial Eruption can be forfeitted altogether.

 

[Gold_TSG]

MK only needs to be a stock ahead for his uthrow to be dumb, regardless of its chances to kill him. It's an easier-to-land version of Bowser's and Dorf's suicide grabs.

 

[Valravn]

It's easier to land, but most of the time he'll die first. Ganondorf can cancel his and still get kills, and Bowser (iirc) always takes the stock first. MK's up throw is also not an instant kill. A Ganondorf at 150% can nab a kill on an incautious 0% character. A 150% MK will die and just do 45% damage.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You're only talking about what it does on paper, not how it would be used by someone who isn't an idiot. MK doesn't exactly have a hard time getting most chars to death %, let alone gimping them endlessly for the first stock. He only needs to deal what... 50ish% to make uthrow kill? Maybe a bit more depending on weight? Think about how easy that is for someone like him. Now combine that with how easy it is to get that grab. Dorf can cancel, sure. Bowser gets the first kill, sure. But neither of them can guarantee a kill out of theirs at any % unless they suicide. As long as MK stays below roughly 30% and away from stage edges (and DIs properly), he can survive his own throw and still get that kill.

 

[NEWB]

That is to say, he can uthrow someone so that they are closer to one side of the blastline, while MK has much more room to DI on the other side, right?

 

[Thor]

You're only talking about what it does on paper, not how it would be used by someone who isn't an idiot. MK doesn't exactly have a hard time getting most chars to death %, let alone gimping them endlessly for the first stock. He only needs to deal what... 50ish% to make uthrow kill? Maybe a bit more depending on weight? Think about how easy that is for someone like him. Now combine that with how easy it is to get that grab. Dorf can cancel, sure. Bowser gets the first kill, sure. But neither of them can guarantee a kill out of theirs at any % unless they suicide. As long as MK stays below roughly 30% and away from stage edges (and DIs properly), he can survive his own throw and still get that kill.

Double uthrow KOs lightweights [I believe it KOs Falco]. So if you get the lead of a stock, uthrow them once they get off the revival platform and then when you spawn you just need one grab to be up 45% on your stock to 0% on their next.

I also happen to think uthrow is fine, but I'm only one person, and I think many disagree.

That is to say, he can uthrow someone so that they are closer to one side of the blastline, while MK has much more room to DI on the other side, right?

I swear I've seen people fly both away from him and toward him from uthrow KB, so unless I'm mistaken, you can sorta control which direction you're knocked back. Not positive though.

 

[NEWB]

I think it's kind of random because that's how bombs work. I think uthrow is partly fine but needs tweaking or removing. I don't like the idea that you just win as long as they have one stock left and you have at least two. It dulls the matchup a lot imo.

 

[Thor]

I think it's kind of random because that's how bombs work. I think uthrow is partly fine but needs tweaking or removing. I don't like the idea that you just win as long as they have one stock left and you have at least two. It dulls the matchup a lot imo.

I mean it's part of how the MU is defined. I personally think MK is the easiest character to KO in the entire game - maybe Jiggs or Squirtle is lighter and Jiggs falls slower, but MK is combo food yet still ridiculously lightweight. It's part of his design - he's very swing-y as of now, and uthrow helps him stabilize a little [albeit in an extreme way].

 

[NEWB]

How is he still light weight? Wasn't he made heavier so his jumps would get nerfed?

And I have serious doubts that the intention was that his entire entire character would be designed around the uthrow. That's just stupid.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Weight doesn't affect jumps. MK was made lighter and his jump height was reduced.

 

[Valravn]

I swear I've seen people fly both away from him and toward him from uthrow KB, so unless I'm mistaken, you can sorta control which direction you're knocked back. Not positive though.

You can QCSDI (read: mash the c stick every which way) the attack after the actual grab box ends, and that will somewhat change your direction. Depending on where you're at you can tech it and not die at all.

I don't think he's an extraordinarily difficult character to kill. If you're behind and you think your opponent is a trashcan MK player who wants to up throw you twice per stock for an easy win, it's as simple as not getting grabbed and punishing him when he comes in to do it. Ganondorf can 1HKO anyone with warlock punch, but it doesn't make him overpowered because you can just not get hit by warlock punch. MK's grab box doesn't stay out for very long, you can even spot dodge it. If you're getting pressured by his side B into grab, you can SDI through him when he comes in and unless he pivots he won't be able to grab you. (For some reason the Brawl engine doesn't let reverse grabs happen.)

I don't think there's anything wrong with MK, though I've never played against someone who spammed up throw and actually won with it. I wouldn't be overly miffed if the up throw were changed into something else, but I don't think it's a necessary change. (The SFX on the throw are pretty good for ending a match, you have to give it that.) Maybe his up throw would have him carry someone up into the air and do a weak hit so that both characters end up in the air, where he can follow up with aerials and whatnot? Could be spiffy, especially if you manage to do a catch-grab and throw them before they can refresh their jumps.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Mentioning a hard to land OHKO attack that can be seen coming from miles away is a terrible example. By that logic, Link can do it too (and he stands still and takes longer to perform his), and the same rule applies. (Why would you even waste time on the punch when nearly any other Dorf attack will have virtually the same effect after like 20%?)

We aren't talking about a player who spams uthrow either. We're talking about someone who can beast you with MK normally, then keep securing kills with suicides the same way Dorf and Bowser can. MK has enormous grab range, and is quick on his feet (wings?). Against anyone who can't challenge his speed, it isn't hard to get the first kill, then start pressuring the remaining stocks for suicide kills, just like Dorf, Bowser and Kirby (and DK to some degree). It's simply an easier to land, more braindead version of existing strategies.

 

[Valravn]

Why would you even waste time on the punch when nearly any other Dorf attack will have virtually the same effect after like 20?

Hyperbole for effect.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Is the problem that the up throw makes it artificially easier to lose to a Meta Knight that can already beat you without up throw? I think the move would be a real problem if it allowed a Meta Knight that couldn't already beat you to cheese you to death if they managed to get a stock up through a SD or whatever.

 

[NEWB]

There is a big difference between just beating someone handily with combos, mindgames, and generally outplaying them in neutral then just doing an uthrow instead of that. So what if they would win normaly? That just means that they don't have to work as hard for the win. Getting a lead at anytime doesn't merit a victory: it just eliminates (not completely) a comeback from the other person. That's just dumb.

 

[Valravn]

I'd be more convinced of that if it weren't such an obvious move on the MK's part. If you know he's fishing for grabs, you're already a step ahead. It just means you have to change your plan a little bit against that character. In Melee, a lot of fast-fallers die to Jigglypuff's up-throw rest or up-tilt rest depending on percent. That doesn't mean they lose stocks as soon as they get to 15-20%. (When Rest starts to KO.) You just have to mind where you stand and not get grabbed. It won't work all the time, but it helps a lot.

 

[Thor]

I'd be more convinced of that if it weren't such an obvious move on the MK's part. If you know he's fishing for grabs, you're already a step ahead. It just means you have to change your plan a little bit against that character. In Melee, a lot of fast-fallers die to Jigglypuff's up-throw rest or up-tilt rest depending on percent. That doesn't mean they lose stocks as soon as they get to 15-20%. (When Rest starts to KO.) You just have to mind where you stand and not get grabbed. It won't work all the time, but it helps a lot.

Similarly, Ice Climbers have a 20-death out of a grab in Melee and an excellent wavedash to quickly cover space, making a grab in a 1/3 of a second a threat from anywhere within a wide radius on the ground. That's why people play differently against ICs as well.

Incidentally, MK is also among the easiest characters in the game to lose a lead with [against Falcon, if he loses 4 times in the neutral game it may very well be GG - especially when you notice that a lot of his moves are now outranged or outprioritized by specific counters due to buffs that've occured]. I think uthrow is designed as a sort of counterbalance to this, in that if you can build and maintain a lead, you can extend that lead to a full stock [or a stock with a bunch of percent on it].

Besides, they already said in the first patch notes release that MK uthrow is getting damage nerfed anyway, so I don't know why people want further nerfs.

 

[Kien]

You guys mentioning uthrow without talking about his pummel? The move that heals him, you know? That he can do every time he grabs you at least twice. Let's say that this MK isn't "fishing for grabs." Let's say that he's a defensive player who only punishes. You can challenge him in the air if you want to, but I don't know how you're gonna outprioritize or out speed him. Fighting him without projectiles or disjointed hitboxes pretty much means you'll lose the trade. MK specializes in the air, so challenging his strength isn't something most characters can pull off. If we want to be theoretical then let's say that someone is an exceptionally well timed MK who knows when to dodge and how to space perfectly. This will ensure that if he ever gets a lead (Not a stock lead) that he can hold that lead forever, regardless of taking combos to the face, all because he has a move that heals him that he can land repeatedly or combo into.