Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

Thor

Well-Known Member
I'm not that great with Vbrawl MK Thor, but I can face you with him in Minus if you'd like. I'm confident that he is still OP, even if he can't beat the Minus top tiers. Also, Link's only transcendant attacks are zair and aerial spin attack if I'm not wrong.

If aerial spin attack and zair can't hit a Mario fireball or Luigi fireball, then they are transcendent - if they can clank those out, then they are not transcendent (but the animation continues because even if things are in the priority range in midair, the animations are not cancelled out). Also apparently the initial hitbox (only the initial one) on Link's grounded spin attack is transcendent. That said, I had forgotten about zair when I stated that (but I don't know if it is or isn't), and I don't THINK his aerial spin attack is transcendent but I can't test right now so whatever. That said, his A-button moves (zair is z-button) are not transcendent.

Deal. I would have asked for this much sooner, but my parents were like "NO BRINGING YOUR WII TO COLLEGE [at least for first term]!" and no one here has Minus and Wi-Fi compatibility - otherwise I'd have just challenged Sneak (or someone) to fight me with vBrawl MK (or let me fight them with him, although my MK is also substandard so people might just say I was sandbagging to try to make a point) at the start of all this.

I'm going home for Thanksgiving (or so my dad has told me) so I should be able to play around then. If you care, you could practice up with him to show me what he's made of in Minus.

Also someone will have to explain to me what to change about Minus on my SD card to make vBrawl MK fit in there, but since I don't have my SD card either, I suppose we can burn that bridge when we come to it.
 

Baby_Sneak

Well-Known Member
Those projectiles all are normal priority. That's why they clang.

There are only two types of priority - normal priority and transcendent priority. Normal priority follows the law of high and low priority and is different in the air and the ground. Transcendent priority ignores the other priority rules. Projectiles that are not transcendent follow grounded priority rules. The law of high and low priority - if a move deals at least 9% more damage than another move, it will be outprioritzed and the weaker move will not affect the stronger move. Otherwise they clang.

So MK's attacks (minus a few) are transcendent.
Samus charge shot acts as a non-transcendent projectile (you can clank out a fully charged one with Bowser's later half of fsmash, or with Ganondorf fair, but not Marth dtilt).
Falco lasers are a transcendent projectile [as are Fox's].
Every projectile you named above is a non-transcendent projectile (that's why they follow the law of high and low priority and are clankable).
Link's attacks are (I believe entirely) not transcendent.
Marth's moveset is not transcendent.

Mach tornado is a little weird, as are a few other notable attacks, but everything you've listed here follows the rules I've given.

Don't believe me? Here's an article on it - you can do some of the tests they explain the results of (Bowser fsmash versus charge shot, Marth fsmash versus charge shot, etc.) if you don't believe the article from which I've pulled what I know: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority

I'm also still waiting for Glyph to do actual arguing instead of simply trying to make arguments from authority and dismiss what I say without any explanation because he doesn't agree [I want him to explain why he thinks I'm wrong].




First things first, if we are putting Minus characters in vBrawl MK can pack up and go home, there is zero chance in hell of him beating Minus Falco in a vBrawl engine. But if we're putting him in the Minus engine, he can't momentum cancel because the game engine doesn't allow it - you can't have your cake and eat it too. So he's a lightweight like intended here. UNLESS everyone's been saying the whole time "If MK could airdodge out of hitstun and abuse Minus hitstun on everyone else, he'd win", and ok, well DUH!!! That's not what I've been arguing about though [and if that's what people were saying, well then pack up my arguments because we were never on the same topic to start).

Pikachu gets in in the vBrawl engine and Pikachu has a much better approach game in Minus with a few of its new tricks - MK can't even shut down Pikachu's approach in vBrawl from top players (See ESAM vs Ally at SKTAR 3), shutting down Minus Pikachu wouldn't happen at all. Pikachu's t-jolt is also much better for both camping and getting in, and for Thunder I was talking about edgeguarding and jab reset stuff - the meteor makes it useful more often then the old Thunder walls to stop his recovery, and the JC lets Pikachu use it with relative impunity as compared to vBrawl. His QA recovery is also much better because you don't have to QA directly onstage (the thing has a single frame of landing lag last I checked).

Falco getting gimped? LOL He's not even gimped that often in vBrawl if the Falco is good (go watch DEHF play, or maybe Bloodcross [he's not as good I don't think]) and he's got a pair of extra jumps to burn and a better firebird. MK isn't some god - he has slow airspeed and he can't cover all those options as easily as you make it out (And Falco can also just jump back onstage with all those jumps - if hit high, side+B high or something - he can also mixup sideB with his walljump - heck Melee Falco can recover against Jiggs unless Jiggs makes the perfect reads so there's not a chance Minus Falco would somehow be at a disadvantage offstage versus MK unless he's WAY too predictable).

Falco's onstage game is now much more scary with his zero-deathing fair and his phantasm being usable at any time, even after double lasers - things have only gotten better for Falco and they were already really, really good considering the cast as a whole.

Bowser's dair, RR through any attacks, up+B OoS. And unless they edited Bowser's grab release animation, Bowser would still have his grab release shenanigans that would give MK headaches since they would also combo into his RR - that's be like 2 grabs = stock if done right, or maybe even one).

Olimar really only loses to MK because of the massive gimping problems and some issues with rushdown - he'd now have a better sideB, significantly less gimping issues (if there is no super armor on whistle then he'd have moved sideways I guess), and dtilt as a great option to both run away and apply his own rushdown.

All of you massively overestimate vBrawl MK relative to the new options Minus characters have. MK is good, but he's not THAT good - he had a bunch of -1 MUs in vBrawl [and an even one] and they've only improved with Minus buffs.
First off, MK isn't jigglypuff. he isn't a Middlewight, but he isn't paper. Dont underestimate his surviablilty
One match doesn't prove crap. Ally is one dude, how about ZeRo, Nairo, Otori, RAIN, M2K, ANTI, etc..? they struggle with pika getting in too? nope.\

Falco's recovery is easily gimped in all smash games and mods, thats his weakness in EVERY Smash game period. Name a falco that is taking tournies right now, there's like 0. falco has NO aerial move that outranges MK's Fair, and the fact that you think falco can recover aginst jiggs in melee makes me think you haven't played aginst a good one. Zero- deathing Fair? lol

Bowser using Dair to challenge me? XD XD XD XD XD RRing through any attack? free damage. UP OOS? oh well, you'll be in no position to capitalize on it. 2 grabs = a stock? this isn't GnW or Jiggly lol
MK never had a bad MUs in Brawl and that even one you're talking about is still heavily debated about.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
First off, MK isn't jigglypuff. he isn't a Middlewight, but he isn't paper. Dont underestimate his surviablilty
One match doesn't prove crap. Ally is one dude, how about ZeRo, Nairo, Otori, RAIN, M2K, ANTI, etc..? they struggle with pika getting in too? nope.\

Falco's recovery is easily gimped in all smash games and mods, thats his weakness in EVERY Smash game period. Name a falco that is taking tournies right now, there's like 0. falco has NO aerial move that outranges MK's Fair, and the fact that you think falco can recover aginst jiggs in melee makes me think you haven't played aginst a good one. Zero- deathing Fair? lol

Bowser using Dair to challenge me? XD XD XD XD XD RRing through any attack? free damage. UP OOS? oh well, you'll be in no position to capitalize on it. 2 grabs = a stock? this isn't GnW or Jiggly lol
MK never had a bad MUs in Brawl and that even one you're talking about is still heavily debated about.

MK is a lightweight lol, he dies earlier than Pikachu in vBrawl and has very low survivability (it's bottom 25% off the top and sides - I can link you to a chart of it if you don't believe me).

M2k lost to Anther, Nairo has lost games to ESAM, I can go digging for others too if need be (he's taken at least one game off Tyrant). Pikachu's t-jolt is now much better for approaching (KB and JC) so he can camp better and use it to get in more, and his bair can be a nice mixup, especially near their shield. His QAC game is also more powerful than ever, with QA -> fsmash doing a LOT of shield damage and if MK has taken some shield damage previously, it very well may break.

Falco's reflector outranges MK fair by a decent bit, and it's much safer now. His bair has very tight spacing but I'm pretty sure if you can mess up MK's spacing at all you can at least trade with it (I'd have to look at the exact ranges and whatnot, and I don't have the stuff to test right now as I've said above). Solo Falcos don't take tournaments because DEHF's not consistent, a bunch of the other Falcos have switched off to MK (Bloodcross), and ICs wreck Falco in Brawl. And as bad as you make it out, that MU is -1 in Brawl and Falco has buffs that improve all of his weaknesses dramatically.

Also, you need to play my Falco again - his fair is bad, but his fair chains are stupidly good (I've gotten zero-deaths on at least few people, I think I did it to Gold_TSG once and I've done it offline a fair bit against Sunderstorm since we're at the same college). I also haven't played a player in Minus who could consistently gimp my Falco, so I want to see you try.

PPMD recovers against Hbox - it has to be a more or less perfect read to gimp Falco - he has just enough options that if you don't read him, he'll get onstage. Here's a link to a match with multiple examples of this [mainly game 2 - notice how many times PPMD is offstage and how many times he's gimped]: I've also played good Jiggs - they aren't Hbox, but Falco isn't always going to die offstage versus Puff, only when they read one of your recovery choices (and there are like at least 3 or 4 - Puff CAN'T cover them all at once and she's not quite fast enough to cover them all on reaction either).

If you nado in neutral, dair will cut through it like a hot knife through butter (heck, Quick Attack will knock MK out of nado if you go in through the top), and if MK commits to a tilt, RR will beat it (or trade rather).

Also grab release -> grab release -> RR grab or Flying Slam -> other Bowser shenanigans - it's like 50% at least, and doing that twice and ending with the correct RR through WILL kill him. Admittedly there are better characters suited to fight him though.

Heavily debated? Ok, but when one receives buffs and the other doesn't, why do you think the other one now wins more??? I can't follow that logic.
 

Baby_Sneak

Well-Known Member
MK is a lightweight lol, he dies earlier than Pikachu in vBrawl and has very low survivability (it's bottom 25% off the top and sides - I can link you to a chart of it if you don't believe me).

M2k lost to Anther, Nairo has lost games to ESAM, I can go digging for others too if need be (he's taken at least one game off Tyrant). Pikachu's t-jolt is now much better for approaching (KB and JC) so he can camp better and use it to get in more, and his bair can be a nice mixup, especially near their shield. His QAC game is also more powerful than ever, with QA -> fsmash doing a LOT of shield damage and if MK has taken some shield damage previously, it very well may break.

Falco's reflector outranges MK fair by a decent bit, and it's much safer now. His bair has very tight spacing but I'm pretty sure if you can mess up MK's spacing at all you can at least trade with it (I'd have to look at the exact ranges and whatnot, and I don't have the stuff to test right now as I've said above). Solo Falcos don't take tournaments because DEHF's not consistent, a bunch of the other Falcos have switched off to MK (Bloodcross), and ICs wreck Falco in Brawl. And as bad as you make it out, that MU is -1 in Brawl and Falco has buffs that improve all of his weaknesses dramatically.

Also, you need to play my Falco again - his fair is bad, but his fair chains are stupidly good (I've gotten zero-deaths on at least few people, I think I did it to Gold_TSG once and I've done it offline a fair bit against Sunderstorm since we're at the same college). I also haven't played a player in Minus who could consistently gimp my Falco, so I want to see you try.

PPMD recovers against Hbox - it has to be a more or less perfect read to gimp Falco - he has just enough options that if you don't read him, he'll get onstage. Here's a link to a match with multiple examples of this [mainly game 2 - notice how many times PPMD is offstage and how many times he's gimped]: I've also played good Jiggs - they aren't Hbox, but Falco isn't always going to die offstage versus Puff, only when they read one of your recovery choices (and there are like at least 3 or 4 - Puff CAN'T cover them all at once and she's not quite fast enough to cover them all on reaction either).

If you nado in neutral, dair will cut through it like a hot knife through butter (heck, Quick Attack will knock MK out of nado if you go in through the top), and if MK commits to a tilt, RR will beat it (or trade rather).

Also grab release -> grab release -> RR grab or Flying Slam -> other Bowser shenanigans - it's like 50% at least, and doing that twice and ending with the correct RR through WILL kill him. Admittedly there are better characters suited to fight him though.

Heavily debated? Ok, but when one receives buffs and the other doesn't, why do you think the other one now wins more??? I can't follow that logic.
Points taken, but I just wantedmake my point clear: you're
Using mostly high and top tier chars to compete against a char who is not even truely broken, and can scrape the mess out of the lower tier chars. All I'm truely asking is that we have more brokenness goin on because it's really dry right now (Falco, one of the best characters, just has basic stuff. Like no gun changing mechanic , no rapid fire laser, no Manuel assist call to call slippy, fox, Krystal etc... And rob has nothing truely interesting either. No fully controllable robo booster, assist caller for the SSE emissary ROBs, no huge laser, or anything lie that.)
 

Neville

GG M8s
Minus Backroom
Points taken, but I just wantedmake my point clear: you're
Using mostly high and top tier chars to compete against a char who is not even truely broken, and can scrape the mess out of the lower tier chars. All I'm truely asking is that we have more brokenness goin on because it's really dry right now (Falco, one of the best characters, just has basic stuff. Like no gun changing mechanic , no rapid fire laser, no Manuel assist call to call slippy, fox, Krystal etc... And rob has nothing truely interesting either. No fully controllable robo booster, assist caller for the SSE emissary ROBs, no huge laser, or anything lie that.)
I agree that a lot of the minus chars are really vanilla and boring. Although calling in support characters does sound like over kill and is D3's thing.
 

Baby_Sneak

Well-Known Member
I agree that a lot of the minus chars are really vanilla and boring. Although calling in support characters does sound like over kill and is D3's thing.
No, d3's thing with the waddle dees are more controlling puppets more than assist. The assist I'm talking about is you call a char, they attack and leave.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
That's why marvel v capcom exists. That would look REALLY weird to see characters summon other characters like that.

Characters are feeling more vanilla now because the dev team has spent a little too much time trying to balance or do whatever with the current roster. Granted it is all necessary work, the last two patches haven't really done a whole lot except fix Roy. I would expect awesome stuff coming our way next patch for this reason, as it's about time to move on and help some other characters in the roster or even add someone.....
 

Baby_Sneak

Well-Known Member
That's why marvel v capcom exists. That would look REALLY weird to see characters summon other characters like that.

Characters are feeling more vanilla now because the dev team has spent a little too much time trying to balance or do whatever with the current roster. Granted it is all necessary work, the last two patches haven't really done a whole lot except fix Roy. I would expect awesome stuff coming our way next patch for this reason, as it's about time to move on and help some other characters in the roster or even add someone.....
its all in implementation, there are numerous ways to do it. It could be summoned by hit confirming a move, dying, throws, etc... but i wont fight for it, im just giving suggestions. Heck, i thought up total character rewrites for some characters. i could post them if yall want me to
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Points taken, but I just wantedmake my point clear: you're
Using mostly high and top tier chars to compete against a char who is not even truely broken, and can scrape the mess out of the lower tier chars. All I'm truely asking is that we have more brokenness goin on because it's really dry right now (Falco, one of the best characters, just has basic stuff. Like no gun changing mechanic , no rapid fire laser, no Manuel assist call to call slippy, fox, Krystal etc... And rob has nothing truely interesting either. No fully controllable robo booster, assist caller for the SSE emissary ROBs, no huge laser, or anything lie that.)

I can agree some are boring, but they are broken (just broken in a bland way I guess). Lucario can do cool things, but his cool stuff wasn't matched by the rest of the cast so it's been toned down, DDD has sort of coolish stuff but his ftilt got toned down because he's way too strong, etc.

I think some low tiers could beat him too (Squirtle armor), and others could be evenish, but some might still lose to him (Peach perhaps? Luigi?) and I agree that's rather lame.

That said, it's still the most exciting mod of them all by a lot in terms of characters flying around, combos forever, and doing really cool stuff (Although Zeus has more powerup taunts so maybe they're cooler?)
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Called Luigi a low tier. I'm done.

Unless cancelled cyclone is really that good (if it is, sorry), how does Luigi get in???

This was a massive problem for him in vBrawl and I don't think it was fixed... does it have to do with crawldashing???

I also didn't state Luigi DID lose, only that he MIGHT. Also most people seem to think Luigi > Squirtle, yet Squirtle's armor will help him out a lot around vBrawl MK (Bash fighting Squirtle as Puff he says is very tough), but I don't think Luigi's lack of traction helps him punish MK anything that hits his shield (more or less - maybe he can punish badly placed dairs).
 
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NEWB

Well-Known Member
Luigi has some amazing combos and gimps with fireballs. He is definetly not low tier. Skilled players don't have a lot of problems starting things if they are good at reading the opponent.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Canceled cyclone IS really good. But there's also that his fireballs and high jumps can force approaches. He has more KO options than anyone on the roster that I can recall, and he's relatively safe and fast. Let's not forget fair which is basically an offstage KO from 60 and up, if he wants to go offstage.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
1410155098663.png


Luigi is a terror in skilled hands.
 
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Darxmarx

The Learning Star Warrior
I was gonna say stuff about Luigi, but what I wanted to say had already been said.
all Luigi needs is the ability to win by doing absolutely nothing consistently
Squirtle is wack and amazing at the same time.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say he has more KO options than the rest of the roster....

Fair, close range rocket, sweet spot upb, fsmash, maybe dsmash or Usmash if they kill early, Nair kills, footstool, fireballs, thunderbrand....

So that's 8 or 10 options right there. His combos rack up damage so.....
 

Glyph

Moderator
One day there will arise a Luigi main and we'll all be sorry, until then the closest thing we've got is Powerup's Mario/everyone he plays.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Canceled cyclone IS really good. But there's also that his fireballs and high jumps can force approaches. He has more KO options than anyone on the roster that I can recall, and he's relatively safe and fast. Let's not forget fair which is basically an offstage KO from 60 and up, if he wants to go offstage.

Seriously, what da heck is up with people here?!? People are assuming Luigi can get in against vBrawl MK in the first place!!!

vBrawl MK has one of the best zoning games pretty much in all the Smash games ever (ok Pikachu uair in 64 was broken but whatever). Luigi fireballs are fine (ish - if his ftilt was not transcendent MK would just laugh at them) but high jumps won't force approaches unless you're baiting MK to uair you which is a terrible idea because uair -> uair or uair -> shuttle loop if you airdodge. He has to actually start comboing MK to get a KO move, and he's not that fast (outside of cancelled cyclone, crawldash, and I guess missile, he's really slow actually). Fair KOs? Sure you combo into it (I guess maybe), but if it's not almost frame-perfect, you're eating a fair or uair and now are in crazy [S/]DI mode since you're offstage against MK.

This MU was hard in vBrawl for a reason - Luigi could combo MK, but he struggled mightily to get in. If you were to tell me "His approach game is too good now" ok, but really??? No Luigi just likely still gets zoned out.

And you're also trying to tell me he outranges and beats Falco - you're claiming a tractionless character who has to powershield everything to punish has a good combo game so he'd beat vBrawl MK, but someone who already ran about even on FD in vBrawl, now armed with a slew of buffs and fixes to all his weak points, wouldn't??? I can't follow anyone's logic here -_-

Also fireballs don't gimp - drill rush will let him recover from way low, and someone said "with minus recovery" and if that's true, dimensional cape straight up -> drill rush upward -> nado or shuttle loop will get him out of any sticky situations.
 
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Thor

Well-Known Member
That's a lot of posts... this thread is pretty long then.
 
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