Would you like Ganondorf to be restored to his MAX 1.01 self?

[Bent 00]

Am I crazy or is there like no time Ganon would ever even try to use Warlock Punch in the air? Like with his double jump he'll just land before it finishes, and to take it offstage he'd wind up falling pretty damn close to the blast line before it went off.

You'd never use it in a serious match, just to show off.

There's no way to make it back to the stage after an offstage aerial Warlock Punch in MAX 3.3.

You could make it back to the stage easily after a Flying Warlock Punch back when it was cancellable.

Last suggestion for Warlock Punch for now:
How about making it walljump-cancellable and aerially cancellable on-hit only? Would either of those open 'Dorf up to getting sent flying from shields again?

 

[Glyph]

Easily? I'm having a hard time seeing that, considering its still a pretty damn slow move. I don't think its a good idea to make a move less consistent because sometimes, in very specific situations, it would be cool looking to land.

For the time being, Ganon's sitting right where he is for the Punch. Ike's getting looked at because there's a lot of stuff that needs fine tuned, but Ganon is in a good place.

 

[Bent 00]

That's a shame IMO. The cancellable Warlock Punch was a lot of fun to use, and now it's just boring.

I'm sticking with MAX 1.01 'Dorf. This new one has nothing on him.

 

[justadood]

why not just decrease the endlag instead of having a cancel? i mean if you hit a shielded opponent before, you could cancel roll to save yourself, but if instead of a cancel there was just the shorter wait until it was over, you could only save yourself on bigger stages, while still being able to keep the shield KO from 1.01 in the game... i think pin said that so far this is impossible, but i was hoping to eventually see that ganon's warlock punch could only make him die if he hit a perfect shield... isn't there something in the game that makes it so if your shield is a little small, you can be hit by certain attacks?... what if that window was just extended more so his warlock punch would still kill most opponents who shield, but make it so if their shield is above that window, then ganon dies like before?... also, decreasing endlag instead of having the cancel would make whiffs more safe for the opponent, while the endlag on a miss would be safer for ganon if the opponent rolled away instead of spot dodging or rolling behind him... for instance...?

 

[Kien]

Before I potentially shut down this thread, I want to say that anyone who just throws out a warlock punch thinking it's a good mixup move or to bait players deserves whatever punishing they get for missing. It's an instakill that ignores shields. You have NO NEED to cancel the ending.

 

[Bent 00]

That would A. Make Ganon more predictable and B. be a huge nerf due to the fact that if a Ganon in the air hits a shield there is no way for him to save himself

It's more "Oh he's doing the warlock punch in the air, that means he's planning on cancelling into something" would make it predictable.

Yes, it would make him go flying off.

Foes could be on platforms that Ganon isn't planning on landing on.

I just tested this, and found out that if an aerial MAX 1.01 Cancellable Warlock Punch is shielded or perfect shielded by a grounded opponent, Ganondorf will not be sent flying like usual.

Does that make my suggestion to make it aerially-cancellable only more feasible?

I haven't tested the MAX 3.3 version yet. Stay tuned.

 

[NEWB]

I'm sitting at being unsure here. It's never a good idea to approach a warlock punch because gandouken. Hm....

I just need to test new Ganon. I did make use of the cancel in the past, but that was just because I could.

 

[Bent 00]

Testing results: In MAX 3.3, an aerial Warlock Punch will deal the usual 666% and send any foes, grounded or in midair, to their doom. Shields won't save them or send Ganondorf flying.

However, there's a bug: a reversed aerial Warlock Punch will only deal the damage; it won't budge or flinch the opponent at all, no matter what they're doing when they get hit. The "THOOM" hit SFX also plays twice, when it should only sound once.

After testing the now-uncancellable Warlock Punch extensively with friends tonight, the majority of us agree that the move is nearly useless as-is. It needs the cancel back.

 

[Glyph]

You and I must not have the same definition for 'useless', since a move that kills at any percentage AND deals 666% percent AND ignores shields AND can be switched at will into one of the strongest projectiles in the game (which also ignores shields just for good measure) seems to have a lot of utility to me.

I AM glad you're testing with it though, since we do need to fix that bug where the reversed one doesn't kill.

 

[Other Aether]

If he didn't have Gandouken, I'd agree with you. As is, Gandouken is plenty powerful for a mix-up option. Just don't throw out Warlock Punches if the foe can reach you before it's over. Another possibility is that he could cancel it into a daze that lasts about a second if you don't mash. That way he couldn't bait it into another attack, but he could cancel it faster if he really regretted it.

 

[Bent 00]

To be clear, I only think the Warlock Punch part of Ganondorf's Neutral B is currently nearly useless; Gandouken is very useful.

It's fine for Gandouken to be uncancellable, since it should be used at range. It also makes your opponent have to approach in a predictable way. On the other hand, Warlock Punch is as close-combat as it gets. I estimate it's going to miss a skilled player at least 95% of the time, and Ganondorf's going to get punished for using it 99% of the time. Pretty useless.

Pin Clock, since I found out that getting his Warlock Punch shielded won't reflect 'Dorf in MAX 1.01 or 3.3, why not at least make it cancellable in midair?

 

[Thor]

can be switched at will into one of the strongest projectiles in the game (which also ignores shields just for good measure)

Unless it was changed from 1.01 to 3.3, I've powershielded this once, it was hilarious to reflect it at them. I think it can be shielded, it just eats shields alive and shield pokes pretty much every character.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Warlock punch is a powerful insta-kill that ignores shields, and shouldn't be thrown out carelessly. Giving it variety makes it more broken, because you're playing around with a move that guarantees a kill no matter what if it lands. It's not something you use unless you can predict your opponent, and as such, you should play to predict if you really want to land it. It is perfect as it is, because it is a high risk, high reward move.

 

[Bent 00]

Even if the current un-cancellable Warlock Punch healed Ganondorf completely on-hit, what good would it be if it will never land in a serious match? It's practically a joke move at this point, and I think all main Smashes and Specials (every non-taunt move, ideally) should be useful in some way.

If Warlock Punch has to be nerfed, I would rather see its power level reduced to just above that of a Falcon Punch, than to have its cancel remain absent. At least then it would be safe to attempt it more often. The cancel made Warlock Punch into such a unique and fun move to use. I wouldn't mind if the cancel window began a few (1-5 or so) frames later than it does in MAX 1.01, either -- a foe who sidesteps a Warlock Punch should be able to grab 'Dorf before he can react. "But Warlock Punch being an instakill, 666% damage attack is too iconic to minus", you say? If this suggestion was taken, it would still K.O. more often than not on-hit, and the move would become much more useful and less stupidly punishable.

 

[Glyph]

Bent, the punch itself is literally exactly as likely to land as it ever has been. In fact, its MORE likely to connect now since not even shields can stop it anymore. A move that has such a massive reward (a straight up kill at any percent) SHOULD be 'stupidly punishable'. You keep bringing in new points without really acknowledging the ones we bring up about it already having a lot of uses.

Like, my biggest gripe here is you're not arguing that ganon's punch was a good move, you're arguing that the strength of the move was that people would try to hit you after it and you could 'bait' with that when they failed to hit you. And that's just bad play, to be blunt. Everyone makes mistakes in game, but if you were consistently throwing out ganon punches and having people fall for the cancel without learning they're not people we can balance a game for. You should not be able to throw out literally the strongest move in minus and ALSO be able to stop any form of punishment on it.

 

[Pin Clock]

Tap B is Warlock Punch
Hold B is Gandouken

 

[Bent 00]

Tap B is Warlock Punch
Hold B is Gandouken

Aw, you caught it right before I deleted the message. How did I forget that, ha...

Deleted message Pin responded to:

Spoiler

How about this:
Two versions of Warlock Punch in one
1.) Hold B: Un-Cancellable shield-ignoring version. Instakill, but much more punishable.
2.) Tap B: Cancellable version, but much weaker (just a little stronger than the final hit of Falcon Punch) *
* If having a cancel means possibly being sent flying by shields on the ground, so be it.

The two could be differentiated by graphics (faint purple flashing on full-power version, perhaps) and/or SFX (different voice clips, etc.).

Anyone like that idea? Two versions of Neutral B works very well on Mario and Luigi.

If you don't like that idea, how about having one version active by default, and 1 version activate via taunt / secret taunt?

Would some other alternate input work, perhaps? I'm thinking...
Two versions of Warlock Punch in one, plus Gandouken
1.) Hold B: Un-Cancellable shield-ignoring version. Instakill, but much more punishable.
2.) Tap B: Cancellable version, but much weaker (just a little stronger than the final hit of Falcon Punch) *
* If having a cancel means possibly being sent flying by shields on the ground, so be it.
Gandouken: Tap B (LET GO OF B), then start holding B again while still winding up the Punch; Un-cancellable instakill Warlock Punch would only trigger if B is held the ENTIRE windup time.

The two could be differentiated by graphics (faint purple flashing on full-power version, perhaps) and/or SFX (different voice clips, etc.).

Anyone like that idea? Two versions of Neutral B works very well on Mario and Luigi.

The latter part of that deleted post would still work, too:

How about having one version active by default, and the other version activate via taunt / secret taunt?

Un-cancellable instakill version could be default -- no confusing newbies with getting reflected from shields that way -- and cancellable mode could activate by up taunt or new secret taunt (laughing victory animation, maybe).

 

[Pin Clock]

Too complex. Press B at any time during Punch to Gandouken, let go of it to UNLEASH THE BEAST is an easy enough system to understand

 

[Bent 00]

Too complex. Press B at any time during Punch to Gandouken, let go of it to UNLEASH THE BEAST is an easy enough system to understand

Why is it so important to keep Ganondorf as simple as possible? I get that he's basically the face of Minus, but taking out an interesting and fun mechanic just to not confuse new players is detrimental to 'Dorf as a whole. Plenty of other characters (like Link) have complex techniques that newbies would be unlikely to discover on their own. That last suggestion I made would be fine for new players; you could simplify it to "Hold B for instakill, tap B for weaker cancellable Punch, double-tap for Gandouken". Would that not be a good solution for everyone?

I've only heard a few people complain about the MAX 1.01 Cancellable Warlock Punch, anyway. Not nearly as many as when players complained about pre-nerf Lucario, Ike, and Mario. Before MAX 3.3, 'Dorf was still not top tier, so IMO he should have received no changes or only buffs, if anything.

Any reason not to make Warlock Punch aerially cancellable? I don't see any reason why not.

 

[Other Aether]

What about just press A at the start of Warlock Punch to use the cancellable version. I remain unbiased on this issue, but I still contest that Gandouken/Warlock Punch is very strong, regardless of cancelling.

 

[Bent 00]

What about just press A at the start of Warlock Punch to use the cancellable version. I remain unbiased on this issue, but I still contest that Gandouken/Warlock Punch is very strong, regardless of cancelling.

With that setup, 'Dorf would have to do a jab first, or could only cancel into Smashes or Tilts. Wouldn't work well IMO; 'Dorf needs to be able to cancel it into anything, like he could in MAX 1.01.

It's not the strength of Warlock Punch that matters right now, it's the usability. What good is a powerful weapon that misses its target 95% of the time? No good at all.

 

[Glyph]

You realize the changes you want won't make it hit any more often still, it would only punish people who were trying to exploit a move that SHOULD have endlag. The move will still miss 95% of the time, and with a move that is a ONE HIT KILL it SHOULD only hit 95% of the time. Can you imagine if it hit consistently? That would be hugely broken.

The cancel is not coming back on Warlock Punch.

 

[Bent 00]

You realize the changes you want won't make it hit any more often still, it would only punish people who were trying to exploit a move that SHOULD have endlag. The move will still miss 95% of the time, and with a move that is a ONE HIT KILL it SHOULD only hit 95% of the time. Can you imagine if it hit consistently? That would be hugely broken.

The cancel is not coming back on Warlock Punch.

Why does it have to be instakill? You keep saying that 'Dorf deserves to get punished for using it "because it's an instakill", and I can see the logic behind that -- but I'd much rather have a consistently usable move instead of something that's almost always going to backfire on me. Nerf the damage or knockback on Warlock Punch, but leave the cancel.

Are there any Ganondorf mainers here that would prefer to have 'Dorfs current setup over the last one I suggested?

I still wonder what owo's opinion is on this. owo and Gold are the two best 'Dorf players I know.

I don't know if all of the Minus Team are truly set against changing Warlock Punch back to the way it was (or close to it), but if they are, I just hope they'll keep an eye on how often players use the new version. I hope they see that 'Dorf is hardly ever or never using the move, and think "this move really is worse off now. It's never worth the risk". If the poll is anything to go by, it looks like this change has divided players right down the middle -- not a good thing, that.

I've been playing vanilla Minus from the start, but this change is the first one that's actually going to push me into using a custom build, a mix of the best of MAX 1.01 and 3.3. Lucario's invincible Ultra Taunt and the fast, full-length Metal Cap almost did, but I got over those... However, this is too much. This nerf removed at least 1/3 of the fun of playing 'Dorf, for me.

 

[Bent 00]

Bent, the punch itself is literally exactly as likely to land as it ever has been. In fact, its MORE likely to connect now since not even shields can stop it anymore. A move that has such a massive reward (a straight up kill at any percent) SHOULD be 'stupidly punishable'. You keep bringing in new points without really acknowledging the ones we bring up about it already having a lot of uses.

Like, my biggest gripe here is you're not arguing that ganon's punch was a good move, you're arguing that the strength of the move was that people would try to hit you after it and you could 'bait' with that when they failed to hit you. And that's just bad play, to be blunt. Everyone makes mistakes in game, but if you were consistently throwing out ganon punches and having people fall for the cancel without learning they're not people we can balance a game for. You should not be able to throw out literally the strongest move in minus and ALSO be able to stop any form of punishment on it.

I know that its likelihood of hitting hasn't changed. What has changed is how likely you are to get punished for using Warlock Punch.

In MAX 1.01 it was like this:

> Opponent coming your way? Need a mixup to throw them off 'Dorf's otherwise predictable game?
> Jump away and reverse a Warlock Punch in midair. Reversing the Punch allows you to control your trajectory.
> Control where you land to try and Punch your opponent if they continue to approach.
> If you think you're unlikely to land the Punch, cancel it into...
--- Gandouken (if your foe is a good distance in front of you),
--- Up Smash or Up B (if your foe is jumping over you),
--- reverse F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Tilt, or D-Tilt (if your foe is rolling behind you),
--- Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke (if your foe is close, but out of range of the Punch, or they are good enough to predict and punish you if you Punch),
--- jab, followed up by another attack (if your other attack options are too slow), or
--- shield, spot dodge, or roll (if an attack is coming and will beat any attack you could cancel into).

In MAX 3.3 it's like this:

> Opponent still alive?
> Better not use Warlock Punch unless (s)he's stunned/defenseless, or you'll most likely miss and take a beating.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I still like it as it is, tbh. I may not use it often, but when I do, at LEAST half the time it results in a hit, of which I freak out over with insane joy.

To say it's useless is to forget that there are other characters that are missing a move in their moveset entirely, namely DK. He may lack an aerial down B, but I play him so well it doesn't even matter.

The idea with Dorf is to control, not to bait. He has all the tools to wreck face without being predictable, and without needing a cancel. I never used the cancel when it was there, so I have no reason to miss it.