Would you like Ganondorf to be restored to his MAX 1.01 self?

[Bent 00]

I still like it as it is, tbh. I may not use it often, but when I do, at LEAST half the time it results in a hit, of which I freak out over with insane joy.

Half the time!? When exactly are you using it to get such high accuracy?

To say it's useless is to forget that there are other characters that are missing a move in their moveset entirely, namely DK. He may lack an aerial down B, but I play him so well it doesn't even matter.

DK has an alternate Down B (Barrels) which makes up for his lack of an aerial version. Plus, taunting in the air is funny.

Are there any other moves in the game that are as unlikely to work (therefore "useless") as 'Dorf's current Warlock Punch?

The idea with Dorf is to control, not to bait. He has all the tools to wreck face without being predictable, and without needing a cancel. I never used the cancel when it was there, so I have no reason to miss it.

If a character can be played in a different way with success, that's a good thing.

He has all the tools to wreck face without being predictable, and without needing a cancel. I never used the cancel when it was there, so I have no reason to miss it.

'Dorf is one of the most predictable characters in the game now.

I never used the cancel when it was there, so I have no reason to miss it.

Just because you didn't use it doesn't mean that others didn't find it highly useful and enjoyable to use.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Like I said, I play to predict when I want to Pawnch.

I am quite well aware of the barrels, and I love the humor, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still missing an entire move.

Dorf isn't as predictable as you make him out to be, as I've done my fair share of wrecking faster, more technical characters with him on all levels of play. It's a matter of adaptation to the opponent. Know how they tend to approach with what, and act accordingly. Dorf has a very solid offense and defense playstyle.

The same can be said as a retort for that, however. Just because you use it and find it fun in a different sense doesn't mean others feel it was necessary. I enjoyed a lot of neat little things over the releases for different chars that gave them different ways of playing, but they were changed because it wasn't overly necessary or too OP. Changing one little thing like the cancel doesn't alter him much. It came out at the very end of the punch, and you either hit the opponent, or you cancelled it, and anyone who sees you use the punch knows to avoid you or take you out BEFORE the punch finishes. Even with the cancel, that's a massive 2.5 or so seconds of vulnerability, and anyone with any sense would get to you before it finished, voiding the cancel to begin with. If they chose to avoid you, that also voids the cancel, cause you then have no real choice but to go after them, wasting that startup time for nothing.
It's there as a flashy, bragging finisher, and it already has a deviation in the gandouken, which has plenty of uses and winds up being used more often regardless. Dorf has enormous power and deceptive range in his game. He gets people off the stage quickly, and takes advantage of this fact. Those who try to overwhelm him more often than not find themselves overwhelmed instead. landing even a single flame choke severely limits what they can do, and if you can predict their techs, you're going to flatten them.
You need to look at him as a whole, with every option available to him, rather than focusing on one minuscule thing that hardly changes how he plays outside of your group of friends.

That's my opinion on the matter, and I've done my best to explain every reason behind it.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I don't really care about Warlock Punch having ending lag or not, but something that has always bothered me about Minus Ganon, is why can't his down aerial hit normally on grounded opponents? At first it was burying grounded opponents, then it was hitting them much weaker, and then it was hitting diagonally while hitting stronger so you can't follow it up. What's the taboo against just letting it hit grounded opponents normally in Minus?

The only change I would like to see to Minus Ganon is a dair that just fucking hits grounded opponents normally, thunderstomp combos is one of my favorite things about Ganon in all his other incarnations, and it's really annoying to not be able to do them in Minus. If this was fixed, Minus Ganon would be pretty much perfect to me.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It was likely changed because it was too strong a combo.

 

[owo]

Hi I play the ganman and honestly I don't mind either version of his moveset; since warlock punch is the only thing different ._.
and although MAX1.01's punch was functionally more superior; my playstyle remains the same since I rarely even use warlock punch; (I'm not a fan of gandoken either so sue me ) Also I voted in favor of MAX3.3 since I want to punish whiffed punches and I believe he already has a ton of advantages anyway (autocancelled aerials, superarmor frames, high damage output, a projectile, a beard...)

 

[Bent 00]

Also I voted in favor of MAX3.3 since I want to punish whiffed punches and I believe he already has a ton of advantages anyway (autocancelled aerials, superarmor frames, high damage output, a projectile, a beard...)

Spoiler

Was I really the only active poster here who used the cancel on Warlock Punch regularly...?

I still think the last suggestion I made would work really well. No one liked that idea?

*sigh*

Guess I'll leave it at this, and hope this gets looked at again some time in the future:

I don't know if all of the Minus Team are truly set against changing Warlock Punch back to the way it was (or close to it), but if they are, I just hope they'll keep an eye on how often players use the new version. I hope they see that 'Dorf is hardly ever or never using the move, and think "this move really is worse off now. It's never worth the risk".

 

[Omega Tyrant]

It was likely changed because it was too strong a combo.

Would it really be too powerful by Minus standards? I don't see why it would be.

 

[Tybis]

I'd prefer it being non-bury as well, but maybe make it trickier to follow up on since Ganon has no shortage of KO combos (thunderthighs so good).

 

[Gold_TSG]

I don't even remember how much damage the move does, but if it didn't have the trajectory it has now, it would be stupid strong as a combo starter and damage builder, cause it has the most hitstun out of all his moves, and would easily put people at no less than 65% or so in 3 hits, while leaving him free to follow up with anything for a near-guaranteed kill on any light opponents, and that isn't fun at all.

 

[Thor]

Bent said this [because I can't get quotes to show up properly]:
[Are there any other moves in the game that are as unlikely to work (therefore "useless") as 'Dorf's current Warlock Punch?]

Falcon Pawnch needs the powerup or it's not very useful except as a whack mixup. It also has big endlag, and doesn't even OHKO. I'd have to look for other useless moves. Ganon's punch is a great followup to grounding someone with Wizard's foot or aerial flame choke in my opinion (dair is faster but the punch is satisfying).

Incidentally, the startup on the Satan Punch is about 72 frames, or 1.2 seconds. It's not 2.5 seconds. Falcon Pawnch is about 52 frames or so, not even a full second.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Same difference. It's long enough to punish. And falcon punch is superior because of the speed and mobility falcon has. He can jump halfway across the stage and catch you with a punch, where dorf can only dream of doing this.

 

[Tybis]

Shield breaks are a thing.

 

[Bent 00]

Fun Fact: With the cancellable Warlock Punch, MAX 1.01 Ganondorf is capable of doing a loop around Final Destination, via Warlock Punch > Jump Cancel > Flame Choke > Up B.

Just one more reason the cancel was awesome.

 

[Gold_TSG]

He could do that with just flame choke though.

 

[Bent 00]

Huh, so he can... Guess I'll have to find something else cool about the cancellable Warlock Punch.

 

[Bent 00]

Two versions of Warlock Punch in one, plus Gandouken
1.) Hold B: Un-Cancellable shield-ignoring version. Instakill, but much more punishable.
2.) Tap B: Cancellable version, but much weaker (just a little stronger than the final hit of Falcon Punch) *
* If having a cancel means possibly being sent flying by shields on the ground, so be it.
Gandouken: Tap B (LET GO OF B), then start holding B again while still winding up the Punch; Un-cancellable instakill Warlock Punch would only trigger if B is held the ENTIRE windup time.

The two could be differentiated by graphics (faint purple flashing on full-power version, perhaps) and/or SFX (different voice clips, etc.).

Is this even possible? If so, I'd like to make it for use in my local setup. Any PSA coders have any advice?

 

[Bent 00]

Now that 3.3 has been out a while, and 3.5 is coming soon, does anyone else miss the Warlock Punch cancel yet?

Ganondorf players, how often do you use Warlock Punch now, compared to before it was nerfed?

 

[justadood]

i rarely use it now, but i still occasionally try to land it... anyway, it's definitely annoying to feel stuck with such a slow attack in such a fast-paced game xP

 

[Bent 00]

If my most recent suggestion can't be implemented, I think Warlock Punch should...

- Get its cancel back,
- Still ignore shields, but
- No longer be a OHKO;

It should be just a tad more powerful than the final hit of a Falcon Punch instead.

Personally, I didn't have any problem with it getting reflected by shields occasionally...

 

[justadood]

i think that's reasonable personally i think it shouldn't be OHKO, it should BREAK shields, but not ignore them, and it should bounce you a little, but be cancellable into either crouch or maybe just a few moves to help stop your momentum... the shield bounce should only be enough to make you get halfway across final D, so if you use it with your back to a ledge, you'll have to recover, which'd maybe give the opponent time to regain consciousness by the time you get back... this way it's still really usable, it's not too overpowered, while still potentially being a game changer, and it doesn't feel as slow as it has been feeling recently... ...and maybe the knuckle pounding taunt gives you a 3.3 "satan punch" that's not cancellable..?

 

[Bent 00]

and maybe the knuckle pounding taunt gives you a 3.3 "satan punch" that's not cancellable..?

I like the idea of that taunt powering up Warlock Punch somehow. Works great for Falcon...

 

[justadood]

I like the idea of that taunt powering up Warlock Punch. Works for Falcon...

that's also a good point might feel alil more clone-like, but at the same time, it's technically doing the opposite

 

[Gold_TSG]

I still use it as often as I always have to no less an effective degree. It feels rewarding to land it, and fair for it to be punishable. No OHKO move should be cancelable, and it still doesn't need a cancel to make it good.

 

[daftatt]

As a fox main I think that warlock punch needs something besides the dead man's volley. It's pretty much impossible to get hit with the normal punch, it should still go through shields but I think it should be cancel-able into anything.

 

[Glyph]

The cancel is not coming back on Warlock Punch.

Please stop asking for it.