Thoughts on the roster as of 3.Q

[Baby_Sneak]

Fair on zard is deceptively powerful up close and annoying with his further hitboxes, due to the flinch it has, and the zero landing lag if done out of a short hop, which generally gives him a wide opening for a grab.

But that means you have to really commit to it if you're going for the close up hit, and you have to time the Fair just right in order for you not to be disadvantaged time-wise. But honestly, I'm cool with some nerfs to Nair, or other moves as long as I get buffs in the right areas.
EDIT: I mean the long range hitbox on timing

 

[Gold_TSG]

But the problem there is, zard doesn't need to use it to approach. The size of the attack is large enough to play keep away as well, and timing short hops isn't exactly hard to do. I just think that maybe it could lose the flinching. I don't even remember if it caused flinch back in vbrawl... Either way, the move is actually pretty safe to approach a shield as well, since his attack will keep them in shield stun just long enough for his quick grab to come out.

 

[Glyph]

This is what you get for using Charizard in tourney Baby Sneak

 

[Gold_TSG]

Oh come on Glyph. I'm not outright saying it should be nerfed, just saying that it's stronger than people think. You yourself use it for the very reason I stated lol.

 

[NEWB]

Baby has a point though. Zard is easy to kill cuz he's fat and easily punishable.

Stealth rock is unreliable. Use any move with small armor or do an aerial through them. Getting smacked into stealth rocks is your fault.

What was the original idea behind fair? Maybe the move could either lock Zard for camp or shove him forward to make him approach.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Never said he wasn't easy to beat up. Just adding my two cents on the discussion at hand.

 

[Bashdemears]

Jiggs vs Zard is actually kinda scary for jiggs.

 

[NEWB]

It is.

 

[Thor]

Zelda's grab remains the hardest to land in the game

I think that honor still goes to Warlock Punch, or else vBrawl 'Dorf utilt.

1. You really think Falco is better than ROB? He's good against ROB, but overall he is lacking compared to him. Because of how deadly ROB's projectiles are, he has to be extra careful against Falco. Falco also happens to be one of the few characters with faster jabs than ROB and a pressure move nearly as effective. Falco's recovery doesn't outclass ROBs at all however. Pick ROB and jump once, use side B without holding a direction, and then use your air jump. After that, use the tap method of his up B. He can easily make it from one side of any stage and likely back. Probably even on Vbrawl Newpork. (might be a small stretch) Personally I don't think ROB's dair should work as well as it does at all. The fact that he gets to rush to the side allows him to do things that no one else in the game can. Which normally isn't a bad thing, but in the terms of KOs by meteoring it is.

With Falco, it's "press up+b not to die" - the thing has SO much range, and Falco can meteor cancel to recover from literally any meteor with zero jumps, AND it's safer than ROB's meteor cancel but don't nerf up+b he flies because he's a bird. Falco doesn't go as far as ROB, no, but he goes far enough to make it back to any normal stage, which is more than enough. Falco is also just generally harder to meteor smash and edgeguard.

I think Falco has a better MU spread overall in that you can solo main him, but Glyph can't seem to solo main ROB thanks to Falco being out there [or at least, he refuses to fight my Falco with his ROB].

2. Let me know when you can wifi. I want to show you what Charizard can do and I don't even use him. Charizard can win fights using only 4 moves and I'll prove that to you.

If one of those isn't grab, then I'll just shield everything and laugh. edit: read that it's nair, fair, blast burn, and stealth rock. First, this all fails laughably against Falco (I outcamp you and reflect your stuff, shield fair to OoS - nair is good, but it's still rather predictable). So I could play Pikachu and watch this unfold, but I don't think Charizard is as broken as you say based on those moves (his dthrow is too good in my opinion, that's about all besides MAYBE the strongest hitbox of Fly being toned down slightly).

3. Not quite. Many of Kirby's attacks have hitboxes out til they nearly terminate. Nearly all of his non smashes interrupt around frame 26 which is roughly 10 frames after the hitboxes are finished. In other words, a 6th of a second after he's done being able to hit you, he can move.

Again, Kirby has very specific hitboxes such that you rarely have a lot of options for what to use. Yeah he has low duration cooldown, but he's still really light and lowish range (his ducking is soooo good though, as is his sliding dtilt when trying to cut down on the distance to approach while avoiding projectiles).

6. Would making Thunder able to KO off the top really be a nerf? I don't imagine landing a meteor is as easy as a move that's useful in all situations.

You'd make trying to gimp with Thunder fail miserably, and randomly not KO off the top because of the meteor hitting them down to earth. Doing what I want would widen the range to KO off the top reliably, and still make Thunder a great meteor. In terms of buffing, mine gives Pika more vertical KO power and still amazing meteoring - yours gives random meteors that most of the time don't help Pikachu and a much less effective edgeguarding tool. I like my idea better.

8. I don't play as Jiggs but I know that anything you can always combo into out of a certain attack can't be skill once you learn it. It's like Link's dtilt to fair. Or his dthrow to short hop up B. Are you saying I shouldn't listen to bash?

It's skill when you read someone's DI to get a follow-up - you can DI Link's dtilt to fair if I'm not mistaken so he has to jump forward or jump slightly back, or not move, so that he can miss, and one can SDI dthrow -> SH Up+b, so that's lack of skill on the opponent's end. Combos require a great deal of skill to read DI and react accordingly - it's why Mango, PPMD, M2K, Hbox, and Armada are so good - they have nearly perfect survival DI and will vary combo DI very well to make comboing themselves as hard as possible - if there were no DI, M2K would probably never drop a Marth combo, but it's why there are times he doesn't convert - his opponent didn't have skillful DI or else he read their DI properly and did get a KO - in either case a player needs skill for their desired result.

HAHAHAHAHAAHA No.
Zard is super easy to combo, has a weak approach, no way to camp outside of glide, and gimp able and predictable recovery. He needs the KO power to land those meaningful his, or else he garbage. His grab is only good hen you have landed hits already and landing hits with Zard is hard as heck. All of zard a moves, outside of some of his aerials, are super slow and requires excellent reads, and for the most part, I don't think you'll last too long if you used 4 moves Lol.

'Zard can be tough to gimp with proper timing of up+B [SUPER ARMOR YAY] but otherwise I mostly agree. He CAN camp, especially in 2V2s with an ally doing a 2V1, but I still think dthrow could trade some KBG for a few extra percent, which would help him KO with other moves but not KO infuriatingly early.

Uair having fixed kb is a terrible idea on Jiggs - that would be like adding a cancel to the duration of Falco's reflector, not just the inward part, expanding the cancel to also include a shield cancel, and switching his nair to his fair and making nair his Melee nair. And buffing dsmash. It would make him broken. [If the fixed KB uair couldn't combo into rest, it would still chain off the top, and Jiggs has 10 jumps, so that's a bad idea - or else it wouldn't chain into anything, which makes it a bad move then XD.]

Charizard's fair had very few hitboxes with hitstun in vBrawl. But let's not take it all the way back to vBrawl - that move was horrible.

 

[Pin Clock]

Blast Burn is a move that you should be on the look out for if Charizard is a bit of a distance from you. It is easy to read, with a long animation and even an audio tell, so all you need to do to dodge it (unless you're recovering, which sometimes may be an inevitable hit, but that's not a bad thing) is simply pay attention to when he starts the move. Stealth Rock won't always get the spread you want. You have to play around with it, and if the foe can knock you away a little, then you'd have to set it up again for your current location.

Ness has tiny legs. the bAir only sweetspotting on his legs would be a bit of a nerf for Ness. The hitboxes aren't always 100% accurate in fighting games so they can function and feel better, and this is a prime example of that.

Sing is a little silly, even if it was there forever it sometimes looks like it wasn't thought out when it was designed.

 

[Bent 00]

I think that honor still goes to Warlock Punch, or else vBrawl 'Dorf utilt.

I said "Zelda's grab remains the hardest to land in the game". That's the hardest to land grab, not the hardest to land attack. The hardest to land attack is probably Mortal Draw.

 

[Kien]

I don't know Thor, but I'm willing to test it out against you. We'll see if you can be as perfect as you say. As for the Pikachu thing, alright. Your idea seems fine, I wonder if it's doable though.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Beeeeeent. Zelda's grab is fiiiiine. If it was any faster and easier to pull off, her power would skyrocket, because she has a setup throw and 3 kill throws.

 

[Bent 00]

Beeeeeent. Zelda's grab is fiiiiine. If it was any faster and easier to pull off, her power would skyrocket, because she has a setup throw and 3 kill throws.

Zelda's grabs are as bad or worse than D.K.'s Dash Grab. They're so slow she can't even ShieldGrab properly most of the time; most opponents can get a quick attack in before the shieldgrab comes out. Ask Kien, he saw this firsthand in our BDOT matches.

I wouldn't mind Zelda's Throws getting their Damage decreased if they would just come out faster. They should still kill around 100% - 110%, though. I'd rather have weaker Throws that I can actually use consistently. As-is, I'm lucky to get even 1 or 2 grabs in a match against a skilled opponent. Knowing this, I should probably stop attempting Grabs as Zelda; I get punished for it or just miss 90% of the time. That would just be ignoring a problem that's existed since vBrawl, though...

I'd also like to see Zelda's D-Throw be a bit less affected by D.I..

Having said all that, the rest of Zelda's moveset makes up for her terrible Grabs. I'm OK with them being bad as long as her other tools aren't Nerfed. Zelda shouldn't want to Grab that much anyway, since she's supposed to keep her opponents at a distance. I do think she should be able to at least ShieldGrab properly, though.

 

[Thor]

Zelda's grabs are as bad or worse than D.K.'s Dash Grab. They're so slow she can't even ShieldGrab properly most of the time; most opponents can get a quick attack in before the shieldgrab comes out. Ask Kien, he saw this firsthand in our BDOT matches.

I wouldn't mind Zelda's Throws getting their Damage decreased if they would just come out faster. They should still kill around 100% - 110%, though. I'd rather have weaker Throws that I can actually use consistently. As-is, I'm lucky to get even 1 or 2 grabs in a match against a skilled opponent. Knowing this, I should probably stop attempting Grabs as Zelda; I get punished for it or just miss 90% of the time. That would just be ignoring a problem that's existed since vBrawl, though...

I'd also like to see Zelda's D-Throw be a bit less affected by D.I..

Having said all that, the rest of Zelda's moveset makes up for her terrible Grabs. I'm OK with them being bad as long as her other tools aren't Nerfed. Zelda shouldn't want to Grab that much anyway, since she's supposed to keep her opponents at a distance. I do think she should be able to at least ShieldGrab properly, though.

Shieldgrab faster - I think her grab is frame 6, which is just standard. If it's not, I'd like the devs to tell us what it is. Her grabs are also really strong as Gold_TSG said, which rather makes up for it.

 

[Kien]

I've thought of a way to make Zelda better while also making her more skill based. Not sure if people want an even more skill based Zelda though. All of her teleport attacks could have close ranged hitboxes unless you hold the button down. So she'd be able to defend herself up close or far away but not at the same time. Personally I don't think Zelda having slow grabs is an issue. Slow anything really, so long as she can transform into Sheik.

 

[NEWB]

What would the trigger be? A few of her moves are a bit too fast to get that working though, like dtilt, utilt, jab and dash attack. Or am I wrong? Fair and bair are also fast, but those could be mapped to Z aerials like yoshi maybe?

I rather support the idea. I actually suggested that a long time ago.

 

[Bent 00]

I've thought of a way to make Zelda better while also making her more skill based. Not sure if people want an even more skill based Zelda though. All of her teleport attacks could have close ranged hitboxes unless you hold the button down. So she'd be able to defend herself up close or far away but not at the same time.

Zelda is a enough of a technical, high-skill character already. Only the biggest characters like DK and Bowser occasionally get hit by both the near and far hitboxes of certain moves.

Please leave her as-is. If you must Nerf Zelda in some way, I will say that this idea is much better than the last two I've read: NEWB's B-Air Ranged Hitbox Removal and your Slowed Down D-Smash and Jab. Those are both awful.

Personally I don't think Zelda having slow grabs is an issue. Slow anything really, so long as she can transform into Sheik.

"If Character A is too slow, then you should use Character B" is a poor argument that doesn't fix anything, IMO. Zelda's moves should be effective enough that she doesn't need to switch to Sheik. Personally, I'd support replacing her Down B with an entirely new move, making Zelda and Sheik separate characters. That's what Smash 4 is doing, after all...

 

[Kien]

We aren't striving to be smash 4. If we were we wouldn't have removed jab infinites, we would have added finishers to them so you couldnt' choose your own follow up. It is true that when stated that way is a poor argument, however when a character is capable of transformation it is best that you learn to use all forms of that character to maximize their potential in situations where you find yourself countered. Sheik is naturally better against faster characters than Zelda and Zelda has a blatant advantage against large characters. While sheik can take them to combo city and back, Zelda can do so without putting herself in harm's way.

And Newb, I'm not sure what the input would be just yet, but I don't think too many of her moves are too fast for alternate inputs.

Jab coming out frame 8, MAGIC DRAGONS on 14 fair on 8,dair on 13, utilt on 10, the only problems are Dtilt and bair coming out on 5 as that isn't enough time to easily let go of the button without doing so intentionally. However, with her aerials being the true problem pressure moves those could be mapped to Z aerials as you suggested. Dtilt isn't normally used to teleport so that shouldn't be a problem either way.

 

[NEWB]

I find zelda not even remotely high skill or technical. Fair bair spam and proper abuse of ftilt, dash attack, dsmash, and dair are all really simple to do.

It only gets technical when you want to teleport with jab and grab, which isn't even necessary! The only aspect of zelda I struggle with is canceling her Nair to link with aerials. And the jab to grab combo.

 

[Bent 00]

Come on guys, I just finished playing some games against BC, and he was able to handle my Zelda with Falco and Sonic easily enough. We went nearly even against each other. BC had no problems at all getting past Zelda's ranged hitboxes then comboing her. NEWB, play more aggressively against Zelda. Practice against mine sometime. You're not making all these accusations against her without playing against a good human Zelda player, are you? The only people I've played who just can't handle Zelda are the ones who make obvious mistakes or didn't bother learning all the basics of Smash -- Shielding and Dodging, mainly.

Who else here plays Zelda? Face me online sometime, I'll prove she's no problem to beat.

You know what's a real problem? Sonic's D-Air is practically a O.H.K.O., even at very low (<8%) damage! You can't survive it as most characters. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm also convinced that Falco is Top Tier now.

 

[NEWB]

Actually bent, I'm on generally the same side as you. She isn't hard to deal with if you know her attacks and you can bait your opponent.

I just don't see teleportation and ranged hitbox on fair and bair as necessary. If zelda wasn't good close range, I'd agree with you but she still has the tools to get people say from her easily. So you get a character who has insane range everywhere with few weaknesses,

 

[Kien]

You know what's a real problem? Sonic's D-Air is practically a O.H.K.O., even at very low (<8%) damage! You can't survive it as most characters. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm also convinced that Falco is Top Tier now.

Sonic's dair isn't an OHKO. But if he spring spikes you right after it, then you are gonna die. Falco may be top tier, but he doesn't feel cheap to fight. I've never fought a Falco that I couldn't beat. So far there isn't one. Seeing as the characters I use are countered by Falco, this should mean that he isn't over powered. Though I suppose top tier and OP aren't the same. Top Tier is where we want people. Over powered is not.

 

[Glyph]

Kien can beat it so its not unbalanced. If it was unbalanced Kien would lose to it, since of course the standard for balance is what Kien can beat.

 

[Kien]

Kien can beat it so its not unbalanced. If it was unbalanced Kien would lose to it, since of course the standard for balance is what Kien can beat.

This isn't a thread for balance or starting things. But the truth of the matter is that if a character has a clear weakness that can be exploited by the majority of the cast then they aren't overpowered.