Thoughts on the roster as of 3.Q

Discussion in 'Characters' started by Kien, Aug 26, 2014.

  1. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    In my matches against BC's Sonic, I FREQUENTLY got OHKOed by D-Air. BC didn't even use the Spring double spike most of the time. I knew Sonic's D-Air was OP when it killed my 'Dorf at 8% damage -- I was mashing Jump immediately after getting hit by it, but 'Dorf could not do ANYTHING but rocket downwards. My other mains were affected the same way.
     
  2. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    That isn't gonna happen very much bent. Accidents happen. That's the only way that will happen. And you will never let that happen to yourself again.

    Sonic has combos but does not KO easily. I don't see a problem with it.
     
  3. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    It happened 6+ times in my games against BC today, and it will keep happening -- Sonic's D-Air is hard to avoid when you're recovering.

    Are you saying it's possible to recover after getting spiked by Sonic's D-Air? It sure didn't seem that way when I played against BC. I tried mashing jump and different attacks, but nothing could get my characters out of the downward spiral in time.

    Sonic's D-Air spike should not be that good, especially since he has a SECOND spike (Spring) he can fall back on if the first one fails somehow.

    Am I missing something here? No other spike in the game is as ridiculously effective and safe.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2014
  4. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I mean you aren't gonna get killed at 8 percent each time.

    I'm just assuming you were falcon for some of the matches? Falcons recovery is super gimpable. Many other characters in minus are either better protected when recovering or can handle sonic in general.
     
  5. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    I used Falcon, 'Dorf, Zelda, Ike, and Snake against BC's Sonic, IIRC. Not one of them could survive Sonic's D-Air spike.

    It's literally a OHKO against the majority of the roster. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Also, I keep reading that Sonic has a hard time K.O.ing, but his B-Throw seems pretty effective at it.
     
  6. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    All four of those characters have easy to gimp recoveries. Not so much zelda unless she ends up in special fall. Most characters that spike can easily trade with Ike's aether and spike him though I don't know if that is how he killed you.

    Is he using dair as a combo finisher or just gimping your recovery?

    I don't know about it wrecking the cast.

    Back throw does kill but only well if he's throwing you to the blastline and your both close to the blast line.
     
  7. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    I'll have to check the replays I saved.

    Why does Sonic get a Spike that most characters can't recover from? All the other spikes I can think of can be survived at low to mid percents.

    I'll do some testing on this subject tomorrow...
     
  8. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I'm no expert either. I personally wouldn't care if it got nerfed a bit.
     
  9. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    I've never had an issue recovering from it unless hit below the ledge, in which case I have to ask what the hell you're doing down there at 0% to begin with. The move actually doesn't have that much KB to cause OHKOs, and can be meteor canceled with up Bs just like everyone else. Falcon and Dorf and Ike just have trouble recovering from it because their vertical recovery is pretty shit. Zelda and Snake, however, are more than capable of recovering from it, and I've personally done so multiple times.
     
  10. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Is that so? Hmm...

    Still seems absurdly powerful for a regular aerial on the fastest character, though. In my matches against BC, I got the feeling "as soon as you go offstage, you're getting D-Air Spiked", and sure enough...

    I think you should be able to jump out of the knockback sooner. I'll test it some more before saying anything else.
     
  11. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    The hitstun is based on the strength of the attack and your current %, however you can meteor cancel with jumps at specific times, or spam the hell out of up B and pray. The only time it would guarantee death is if you're at high enough % to be hit hard enough. Besides, dair -> spring pretty much guarantees spike kills regardless, so the combo of the two would likely infuriate you more than Dair alone is.
     
  12. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Which "specific times", Gold? I mashed the heck out of my Jump button whenever I got spiked by Sonic's D-Air, but nothing happened.

    Can any other character spike as well as Sonic?
     
  13. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    I honestly don't know the specific times personally, and I don't think you can spam jump the same way you can up B.

    There's a few with better spikes. Pika's thunder is safer, Zelda's is safer and stronger, GW can't be traded with, TL is stronger (but is currently missing his jump cancel, so it's suicide.), Dorf is very much stronger (wizkick pretty much guarantees kills.), DK's headbutt is strong has hell but harder to land, Snake's is strong as hell.

    The list is pretty long, having not even mentioned everyone.
     
  14. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Would someone please remind me what Falco's weaknesses are? He seems really great all-around.
     
  15. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    He has decent combos but not many kill moves. The most reliable way to beat one it to read his moves. Then he isn't so tough at all.
     
  16. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    You can stll cancel Toon Link's D-Air into his Up-B, so it's not suicidal.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2014
  17. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    No bent, TL lost his dair jump cancel. You can test it yourself.
     
  18. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    At Sonic's single-jump height, he can survive a Wizard's Foot Spike with as much as 100% damage. If Ganondorf gets Sonic D-Air Spiked at 'Dorf's single-jump height, he will not survive if he has more than 3% damage.

    A Sonic with up to 47% damage can survive getting Wizkick Spiked at ledge level (or while he's holding the ledge) on FD. He can Spring right out of the hitstun. On the other hand, a Ganondorf at 0% damage cannot survive a ledge-level Sonic D-Air in any normal situation.

    Finished testing Sonic's D-Air Survivability. It's definitely broken. See results here.

    Right, but he can still cancel D-Air into Up Special. So D-Air is not suicidal at all.
     
  19. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    I have to say that the characters you used have natural weaknesses to getting spiked. Not only that, but there's nothing Sonic can do to force you offstage at 0%. Testing side smash and throws from 0, Sonic doesn't have enough time to get where he needs to be to spike you to death. Although the move DOES kill Ganon from 0, Ganon offstage at 0 is ALWAYS Ganon's fault. If you're keeping your distance from Sonic like that you don't know how to fight him.
     
  20. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    You think your characters have it so tough. Sonic Falco is probably even or pro Sonic, Falco Link is slightly pro Falco or even, and the same for TL. You can't spam projectiles, but Link's range is more than enough to out-box Falco with good spacing, and the same is true for TL.


    Is the meteor cancel penalty window from vBrawl still present???

    That would explain the issue. If not, that's a load of garbage that Sonic's dair does that. Falco dair can't do that at 50%.

    Then fix the meteor on Sonic - Dorf's job is to OHKO [WP], not be OHKO'd. And that happens if you chase offstage, which is silly that he gets a free zero-death for a single mental mistake that requires very little execution on Sonic's end [even Falco generally needs triple dair or two sweetspot dairs, and also has to avoid getting hugged]. Also dair -> footstool -> spring is really really stupid zero-death he has.

    I'm realizing some of this stuff only now, but Sonic is probably actually really really good if the player is patient with KOs. But people want those 100% KOs which is why we all label Sonic as "Bad" when he's not [and that silly dair spike gives free 50% KOs].

    Can we give Spring purely horizontal KB? Yes it will still screw over some recoveries, but it won't auto-death from the dair -> footstool combo [which can KO anyway]. Then there is actually a reason to try recovering instead of just laughing/being salty and starting the next stock/match.
     
  21. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I don't see anything wrong with that combo.
     
  22. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Now do you see why I haven't been giving Sonic major ko buffs?

    However, Mario's dair to footstool is just as bad, he can even pull you offstage to set it up. If you aren't so thirsty for kills you can live a lot longer against offstage monsters. That's like chasing Kirby vertically and being upset that he block smashed you.
     
  23. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Wrong. Sonic (at 0%) can survive getting Footstooled by Mario at ledge-level on FD, but Mario (at 0%) cannot survive Sonic's D-Air at that level.

    Sonic's D-Air has way too much hitstun.

     
  24. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Sonic is made for recovery and combos, if you expect any kind of spike to kill him at 0 well... You're spiking the wrong person.
     
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  25. Bashdemears

    Bashdemears Jiggs2stronk

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    How about dem wolf lazers? They need an auto cancel. Also unable to shoot more than one per shorthop.
     

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