The future of Minus
- Thread starter CaptainEllipsis
- Start date
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
I just need to play you in general.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
It's Spookyman I don't think he's played over wifi a whole lot. So when I finish moving and get interweb set up, I'll have you guys witness his true form.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I can already hear the Wifi jons on Spookyman's behalf... unless he somehow consistently lands fair -> dair -> distant dair or some nonsense like that... at which point DI would be a good friend to have. Zelda should not be able to 2-3 hit zero-death anyone, and I mean anyone, on the roster.
First, I'll say I like your idea.
My changelist ideas:
First, Samus. She falls like a rock and can be gimped very easily - I don't know about all the characters but she's downright easy pickings for Falco since he can just launch himself out there, dair her between bomb jumps, and effortlessly fly back on stage. MK and Pikachu also have very little problem gimping her, because she falls so quickly that her new bomb jump leaves her wide open and with a very obvious flight path. Her new screw attack was somewhat helpful in alleviating this but she then is one of the only characters in game who can't just use a horizontal recovery move (As a buff) repeatedly. The bomb jump shooting her forward also doesn't do much for her recovery. Meanwhile her combo game doesn't fight like Samus of vBrawl, which was actually decent in vBrawl with proper setup, and is even stronger with the uncancellable (and longer) hitstun in Minus (here's a video of a Samus in vBrawl with relatively long strings - notice he opens game 2 up with a 30% string and could get even more in Minus because of the longer hitstun: ). Her combo game was stronger than most people gave her credit for in 3.3 and her current combo game feels kind of lame. At best she's a vanilla mid/fastfaller, which isn't somewhere Samus should be [or rather this Samus imposter] (it also really doesn't fit her, given her projectile game). I want Samus to get a fallspeed revert, but keep most of the buffs she's gotten to other moves (dtilt, uthrow, screw attack kb and maybe the movement too, but that might be too much...).
If someone wants to nerf Falco, start by putting him back to slow lasers before checking if he needs to be hit harder - because he probably doesn't...
MK beamsword fthrow was awesome because it allowed for interesting tricks with item play. And while I haven't tested it, I recall someone saying they reverted the angle, which makes it a less reliable kill throw, so MK now has to SD if he wants a KO again (yes it's situational, but it makes that he has to find very situational bthrow instead of just situational side throw, since it seems one can DI dthrow to avoid sweetspot shuttle loop). Plus it was pretty awesome to see something rather canon like that added in. Can we get the beam sword back?
I think there are more characters I kinda of want addressed but these are the three big things (in order).
P.S: Not a huge thing but I REALLY liked the down+b buff on ZSS that gave her a jump back after using it - what caused that to be removed, and could it be fixed and reimplemented (apparently some infinite jump glitch, but there were never details on that...)?
CaptainEllipsis said:
First, I'll say I like your idea.
My changelist ideas:
First, Samus. She falls like a rock and can be gimped very easily - I don't know about all the characters but she's downright easy pickings for Falco since he can just launch himself out there, dair her between bomb jumps, and effortlessly fly back on stage. MK and Pikachu also have very little problem gimping her, because she falls so quickly that her new bomb jump leaves her wide open and with a very obvious flight path. Her new screw attack was somewhat helpful in alleviating this but she then is one of the only characters in game who can't just use a horizontal recovery move (As a buff) repeatedly. The bomb jump shooting her forward also doesn't do much for her recovery. Meanwhile her combo game doesn't fight like Samus of vBrawl, which was actually decent in vBrawl with proper setup, and is even stronger with the uncancellable (and longer) hitstun in Minus (here's a video of a Samus in vBrawl with relatively long strings - notice he opens game 2 up with a 30% string and could get even more in Minus because of the longer hitstun: ). Her combo game was stronger than most people gave her credit for in 3.3 and her current combo game feels kind of lame. At best she's a vanilla mid/fastfaller, which isn't somewhere Samus should be [or rather this Samus imposter] (it also really doesn't fit her, given her projectile game). I want Samus to get a fallspeed revert, but keep most of the buffs she's gotten to other moves (dtilt, uthrow, screw attack kb and maybe the movement too, but that might be too much...).
If someone wants to nerf Falco, start by putting him back to slow lasers before checking if he needs to be hit harder - because he probably doesn't...
MK beamsword fthrow was awesome because it allowed for interesting tricks with item play. And while I haven't tested it, I recall someone saying they reverted the angle, which makes it a less reliable kill throw, so MK now has to SD if he wants a KO again (yes it's situational, but it makes that he has to find very situational bthrow instead of just situational side throw, since it seems one can DI dthrow to avoid sweetspot shuttle loop). Plus it was pretty awesome to see something rather canon like that added in. Can we get the beam sword back?
I think there are more characters I kinda of want addressed but these are the three big things (in order).
P.S: Not a huge thing but I REALLY liked the down+b buff on ZSS that gave her a jump back after using it - what caused that to be removed, and could it be fixed and reimplemented (apparently some infinite jump glitch, but there were never details on that...)?
Y'all don't realize Zewo Swoot Sam's recovery is already good enough, AT LEAST on par with most of the cast.
Jump+UpB give you a huge momentum boost.
Her DownB can instantly cancel into upB, giving another similar momentum boost. Alternatively, you can do the flipjump out of it instead by just pressing the jump button OR as a second alternative, you can kick and get your downB refreshed.
And lastly, use either Plasma Whip or Plasma Wire to tether.
Unlike most characters, none of Zero Suit Samus' recovery options go into specialfall, so you can switch up between them for whatever your current situation calls for.
As an example, try going DownB>Kick>DownB>UpB>Jump>Up/SideB.
Seriously, I think you guys are really underestimating her recovery.
DownB>Kick>Jump>DownB>Kick>Jump>DownB>Kick>Jump>DownB>Kick>Jump>Taunt (optional)
Not a bug, just a lack of foresight on our part.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Wait, so she got a buff in previous versions where doing the kick restores her down+b? Because I can assure you that was never in Brawl... I would support removing the down+b refresh via kick in exchange for giving her a jump back (and maybe, just maybe, making down+b refresh when she is hit...).
The cancel into up+b was also never a part of the original Brawl, and I don't recall seeing these in original changelogs, so these must be relatively ancient changes (and must be why it ever refreshed jumps at all - someone forgot and was like "Hey this would be cool!" and then someone was like "Hey I know about both of these changes infinite recovery! Remove it now").
I learned something new today - thanks Tybis.
Fastfall dair gimps are true with like 99% of the cast (obviously exaggerating, but this works with so much of the cast) unless you're telling me her dair outranges Falco's Firebird and the like... and even then, if she misses, she has a single jump and up+B to get back onstage, which is just as lackluster as Marth (Except less total height is gained than Marth) and completely outshined by Falco (and she's vulnerable if she does anything more than immediately go to the ledge, and even then isn't fully safe). Her old dair let her float out and go for a dair, or more often dair and a DJ fastfall dair -> up+B to get back on with relative safety, since unlike now she could dair offstage and still be able to recover without needing all the vertical components of her recovery.
Heck, I think Ness is a better gimper now - he can nair safely or dair them, but his DJ is better for getting back on and his PK Thunder is long enough to get him back on, even if his recovery is a little less safe if he fails to hit the opponent.
Speaking of Ness, I kinda feel like that instead of armor, Ness should get projectile immunity while using PK Thunder (and maybe a faster meteor cancel window) and he should be able to PK Thunder sooner after a missed attempt (Either hitting something or just running out of PKT time) since someone can literally jump into it like twice, then grab ledge with good timing to gimp him if he's actually in a must-use zone, and he falls far enough that missing it once is usually death anyway (as in just whiffing the PKT), so being a little more forgiving would be nice.
Alternatively, one cool buff would be to allow Ness to airdodge out of the animation, killing the projectile (so you can't like attack them with it and then airdodge out and do another while they have a PKT to deal with) but not leaving Ness helpless so that he can try to PKT again - not sure how workable this would be.
Other ideas too, but I have other stuff to do so I'll just leave these ideas for now.
The cancel into up+b was also never a part of the original Brawl, and I don't recall seeing these in original changelogs, so these must be relatively ancient changes (and must be why it ever refreshed jumps at all - someone forgot and was like "Hey this would be cool!" and then someone was like "Hey I know about both of these changes infinite recovery! Remove it now").
I learned something new today - thanks Tybis.
NEWB said:
Fastfall dair gimps are true with like 99% of the cast (obviously exaggerating, but this works with so much of the cast) unless you're telling me her dair outranges Falco's Firebird and the like... and even then, if she misses, she has a single jump and up+B to get back onstage, which is just as lackluster as Marth (Except less total height is gained than Marth) and completely outshined by Falco (and she's vulnerable if she does anything more than immediately go to the ledge, and even then isn't fully safe). Her old dair let her float out and go for a dair, or more often dair and a DJ fastfall dair -> up+B to get back on with relative safety, since unlike now she could dair offstage and still be able to recover without needing all the vertical components of her recovery.
Heck, I think Ness is a better gimper now - he can nair safely or dair them, but his DJ is better for getting back on and his PK Thunder is long enough to get him back on, even if his recovery is a little less safe if he fails to hit the opponent.
Speaking of Ness, I kinda feel like that instead of armor, Ness should get projectile immunity while using PK Thunder (and maybe a faster meteor cancel window) and he should be able to PK Thunder sooner after a missed attempt (Either hitting something or just running out of PKT time) since someone can literally jump into it like twice, then grab ledge with good timing to gimp him if he's actually in a must-use zone, and he falls far enough that missing it once is usually death anyway (as in just whiffing the PKT), so being a little more forgiving would be nice.
Alternatively, one cool buff would be to allow Ness to airdodge out of the animation, killing the projectile (so you can't like attack them with it and then airdodge out and do another while they have a PKT to deal with) but not leaving Ness helpless so that he can try to PKT again - not sure how workable this would be.
Other ideas too, but I have other stuff to do so I'll just leave these ideas for now.
Valravn
Well-Known Member
I like the new up-tilt, but I miss the old one, too. The ground-spanning hitbox was extremely useful for interrupting bad approaches and setting up long-range combos. It wasn't too powerful, either, since one could shield or short-hop to avoid the damage. Down-smash was useful for comboing into back air and neutral air (especially on a delayed pitfall setup) depending on DI, but the new leg drop hitbox is sort of useful.
I really like the new particle effects on Dark Dive though, that stuff is magic.
I play Meta Knight a fair bit, and I miss the beam sword. Giving someone a sword can backfire, but it's not that hard to catch the sword and use it to your own advantage. Not to mention it abruptly changes your opponent's strategy for spacing, more so if they're unfamiliar with using the beam sword. The changelog implied this change was a buff, but I personally find the throw almost useless without the beam sword feature.
I haven't played enough 3.Q yet to fully explore all the new changes, but I can definitely say Ike is more fun for me now than in 3.5.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Thor, those zamus changes were indeed in a changelog. I think they were added in the max beta versions.
I also show my support for the beam sword return. Strange how people seem to be divided on this matter. I really liked the reference it gave to his first appearance. I find I like him even less now. Two of his coolest moves, vbrawl jab and vbrawl upsmash, were replaced with weird moves he never had. I don't deny their utility but his own gimmick, swinging his sword everywhere, is slowly being removed and I don't like that. Whenever I play vbrawl, I play MK just to see those moves back in action.
I also show my support for the beam sword return. Strange how people seem to be divided on this matter. I really liked the reference it gave to his first appearance. I find I like him even less now. Two of his coolest moves, vbrawl jab and vbrawl upsmash, were replaced with weird moves he never had. I don't deny their utility but his own gimmick, swinging his sword everywhere, is slowly being removed and I don't like that. Whenever I play vbrawl, I play MK just to see those moves back in action.
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
1. You gave Sheik an offensive SideB without creating a new move. A move that I use to shame people has now become a useful tool.
2. Sheik's jump/gravity is good now. I used the 3.5 changes as a training exercise with jump height, and now that it's better....I feel I'm better too.
3. You didn't change Pit from 3.5. Good.
4. Roy. You may have given me a new main. I was a little concerned about the new airSideB being too similar to Ike's, but it works in my experiences.
5. Pichu sideB kills again. Good.
6. I don't remember anything else.
2. Sheik's jump/gravity is good now. I used the 3.5 changes as a training exercise with jump height, and now that it's better....I feel I'm better too.
3. You didn't change Pit from 3.5. Good.
4. Roy. You may have given me a new main. I was a little concerned about the new airSideB being too similar to Ike's, but it works in my experiences.
5. Pichu sideB kills again. Good.
6. I don't remember anything else.
1. Gannondorf. ...the double kick dSmash is gone. Weird. That was a sort of combo. I'll play some more with the new one. uTilt...unused, because weird. I need to play more.
2. Falco lasers. I thought I was playing Melee/vBrawl. Weird.
3. Wolf lasers. Weird. Unsure if I like it or not.
4. Why does Captain Falcon receive special treatment with his A100 move(infinite jab)? What's different? Special treatment? Weird. You took out Pit's infinite jab. Why? I like the change. I feel it's unfair, which is weird.
5. No substantial changes to G&W. We went from numbers to using letters and he still didn't get a change. Weird.
2. Falco lasers. I thought I was playing Melee/vBrawl. Weird.
3. Wolf lasers. Weird. Unsure if I like it or not.
4. Why does Captain Falcon receive special treatment with his A100 move(infinite jab)? What's different? Special treatment? Weird. You took out Pit's infinite jab. Why? I like the change. I feel it's unfair, which is weird.
5. No substantial changes to G&W. We went from numbers to using letters and he still didn't get a change. Weird.
1. Sheik.
2. Pit.
2. Pit.
I have no demands nor requests at this point. Carry on as you were.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
I was playing Zelda against my friend's very good Luigi tonight, and noticed that Zelda cannot shieldgrab hits on her shield before Luigi can attack again. I get that her grabs are supposed to be powerful but hard to land, yet they seem too hard to land IMO. Doesn't Zelda still have the hardest-to-land grab in the game? She should at least be able to shieldgrab properly IMO.
I also wish her D-Throw was less affected by foes' DI, so it would chain better and set up for followups more reliably. As-is, it's usually a better choice to use one of her other throws to get the opponent far away from Zelda again. Anyone disagree?
I also wish her D-Throw was less affected by foes' DI, so it would chain better and set up for followups more reliably. As-is, it's usually a better choice to use one of her other throws to get the opponent far away from Zelda again. Anyone disagree?
This needs to be Marth's Final Smash. No rejections.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Thought Marth wasn't elemental - but the thing (where he charges and the enemy dies after he's done some sort of motion) after combined with the sigil on the ground could be workable.
@Bent 00 were you trying to shieldgrab the dash attack or what? Pretty sure Luigi is smacking around his hands fast enough to block shieldgrabs, same I think for down+B. Otherwise, what couldn't you shieldgrab. I know Falco can't shieldgrab a Kirby fsmash, but I don't think most people can... or is this something you shieldgrab all day as other characters but can't grab as Zelda for your life?
@Bent 00 were you trying to shieldgrab the dash attack or what? Pretty sure Luigi is smacking around his hands fast enough to block shieldgrabs, same I think for down+B. Otherwise, what couldn't you shieldgrab. I know Falco can't shieldgrab a Kirby fsmash, but I don't think most people can... or is this something you shieldgrab all day as other characters but can't grab as Zelda for your life?
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
It may have been Dash Attack. My memory is a little fuzzy since it was an intense match; out of 30 stocks, I only won by two, and I trailed by two stocks until the very end. I've been trying to beat that Luigi for weeks!
I'll do some testing and report back.