Was gonna post my own ideas, but I read the rest of the thread, and have some explaining to do to a certain Jigglypuff.
DubLTeamz said:
Tried out the new Utilt with my brother, and found it isn't very useful (Granted, we aren't be the best, but still).
On Mario, it doesn't kill (without DI) until 150%, from the center of FD. So it isn't a kill move, considering its range.
At 0%, if Mario DI's behind Ganon, (Barring extremely bad play on Mario's part) there is no way for Ganon to follow up. Any higher damage, and Mario flies further, so no follow ups from 0% to 150%, which kills (If you don't DI). If Mario DI's away (Forward), Ganon can indeed follow up with Uairs and Fairs. Otherwise, characters lighter than Mario are pretty much safe from Ganon's Utilt. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
On Bowser, (The largest, heaviest character) it preformed exactly the same. At 0%, Bowser DI's behind Ganon, and it becomes impossible for Ganon to follow up. And Bowser doesn't die till 200% (Without DI, I believe).
So, Ganon can't combo out of Utilt on ANYBODY (Once again, barring bad plays on the part of the defender). While it does do 15% (With three hits I think), it has to short range to be a kill move either. Correct if I'm wrong, as I think it LOOKS cool, but is virtually useless.
This was my EXACT experience with utilt, and just on a level 3 AI in training, which usually has ZERO DI - this move is bad, and needs fixing.
In regards to your Olimar suggestions, I wouldn't mind seeing the KBG on those things go down - given how quickly they explode at high percents, I wouldn't mind seeing them not KO lighter characters until like 170%, and even higher on fatter characters (whites excluded from this of course, because the meteor should stay awesome). I would still like them to KO for Olimar though, but that's a personal thing, and the devs might like your idea.
Okayokokokokokok. My thoughts on the puff have been the same for awhile.I swear I will keep saying this until someone proves me wrong. Most of jigglypuffs moves are outclassed by fair, bair, nair, ftitl, dash attack, and fsmash. Maybe sing as well. Every other move she has only does what these moves do but worse. You guys keep saying utilt is good but I fail to understand why go for something so risky when you can stay safe with a bair, nair or fair. ( and get the job done just as good or even better.)
Said it before, I'll say it again; utilt is way good, it's one of her best moves (better than ftilt I'd say) - none of the moves you listed combo into rest nearly as quickly or with Jiggs facing backward - the only thing that arguably might is fsmash -> jab reset (so jab is not outclassed either) -> Rest, which I appear to be the only one who has ever pulled off in a match worth recording [my Jiggs versus Fe's Luigi - pretty amusing match as noted below] (and it's not consistent because fsmash has to be at very specific percents - but there is your early rest combo!). It also sets up for aerial bair or nair if you don't want the rest, and gives them more height so they can't try to fastfall/DI down and tech out as easily. So utilt is great, it's the only move that guarantees a KO if you read their DI at 40+%. Bair, nair, and fair do not give Jiggs those options as easily or efficiently as utilt. It's honestly not risky either (shieldgrabbing aerials/nair OoS isn't that hard either, and they do punish Jiggs aerials well). Or else show me your
consistent nair/fair/bair -> rest combos, at which point I'll give you that Jiggs's utilt is outclassed (utilt to rest is consistent with little/no practice, which is why I emphasize the word consistent).
Dsmash has an amazing angle and it can hit lower than fsmash does, and it also is I think faster. It also leaves Jiggs WAY less risk if you want a roll read (if they don't roll and you fsmash at them, you're wide open - otherwise they have to close that distance). It's a tool you're not using properly.
Usmash can combo into Rest or into a move into rest, and can set up tech chases at very low percent, allowing you to tech-chase Sing -> stuff. It also KOs off the top with far less risk than Rest, and it's powerful for that use.
Rest heals, best KO move - nothing actually outclasses this move for what it does - only drawback is risk factor, which can be made negligible against most of the cast (Link and Ganondorf of course will OHKO you for a whiff [and Jiggs CAN if she wants to/worn down shield], but that's how they roll, and why one is more careful in that MU).
Jab is great for jab resets and a quick smack to knock people off - it's also not that bad on shields because double jab is possible, and if I'm not mistaken she can repeat it fairly quickly like Peach or Wario.
Dair lets you accelerate to catch up with fastfallers, and you can footstool cancel it if I'm not mistaken - restores jumps and also footstools opponent, leaving them in position where they must fall farther or jump into Jiggs aerial. This move is underused in my opinion, though it's tricky to use well (the other easy use is landing faster if you happen to need to bail a teammate out/get in the fray after a strong hit or are almost out of jumps, both of which are huge things for Jiggs).
I can't remember what Jiggs dtilt does, but if they make it like Kirby's it can advance under projectiles, which would be more than enough. Have to see what it does otherwise.
Uair combos into Rest if I'm not mistaken, and can KO off the top well at higher percents. I'd need to look at uair more to determine what else it's good for.
Pound has a great hitbox, the last hitbox can get reverse gimps hilariously early (see my match versus Fe here (note that my Jiggs is pretty lame and also I was bad at using certain moves well, and also that this version is older):
) and it can be used for recovery if low on jumps - a great move all-around.
Rollout lets one recover, can combo into rest if used properly for obscenely early KOs, and can allow mindgames. It also can KO on its own as well - a decent move, despite startup. Also a lot of characters have mediocre B moves, and sometimes more than just neutral b, so that's not a reason to fix this when they have bigger problems, while this still has some utility.
We're not discussing throw games because Falco's is worse than Jiggs - bthrow gives them either a ton of height or a ton of time since DIing lasers, uthrow is questionable at best, dthrow doesn't actually combo into anything, and neither does fthrow - and none of these KO at reasonable percents, either. I could over why each of Jigg's throws outclass Falco's [ex: bthrow has a much better angle], but we're not going there more (and if you did get others to agree that Jiggs throws need buffs (they don't, they have better angles for gimping than Falco throws), it would be a reason to buff his throws as well).
Your problems with Jiggs seem to be because you want her to have an entire moveset composed of all-purpose/obvious moves - and most characters don't have as many all-purpose moves as Jiggs does in the first place - if you used her other moves more creatively, I think you'd appreciate her moveset more, and using her moveset more effectively might improve your Jiggs too.
Like I said, I'll post my own thoughts later, since this post is long.
