Suggestions for changes to C. Falcon's taunts

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Modified, balanced suggestions for changes to two of Falcon's taunts:

1.) Side Taunt: Get rid of the "pull" effect, and give Falcon super armor for the duration of the taunt.

The "pull" effect does nothing but harm Falcon if he cannot cancel the taunt, making it stupid to ever use as-is. So how about making this taunt function just like Ganondorf's sword taunt? Giving this taunt super armor (not invincibility) would make it useful for surviving certain attacks, without making it spammable (Falcon can still take damage).

If Falcon could cancel the very end of the taunt, he could grab an opponent bold enough to "come on" right up to him to try and attack him right as the taunt ends, or cancel out an incoming projectile with an attack. This very brief cancel window would make it harder for an opponent to predict exactly when to time their attack on Falcon to punish his taunt.

If Falcon opts to not cancel side taunt, there should be some vulnerable endlag during the last few frames, so that Falcon cannot spam side taunt to maintain constant super armor.

This would hardly be a buff; it would just make Falcon's side taunt actually worth using in a few situations.

2.) Up Taunt: Make this taunt and his secret taunt reflect projectiles. If Falcon successfully projects a projectile with regular side taunt, he could say the quiet "Yess".

This would be a small buff, but all a shooter would have to do is predict it, and time their shot so that it hits after the taunt ends... Or they could just run up to Falcon and grab / directly attack him while he's busy reflecting projectiles. If that's not enough of a drawback to pay for the ability to reflect, Falcon could damage himself by 1% every time he uses up taunt (he is lighting himself on fire).

Come on, you've gotta admit these would be a great fit for Minus! If no one agrees this time, I give up...

Any feedback is welcome.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Re: Meta knight!

Just for the record Newb, It's literally 2 lines of code in his file. It's not that we don't want to code it, and we aren't being stingy. This update is an update thats polishing and making everything look more professional, removing unnecessary things that didn't need to be there to make the game less 'Brawl Vault like'. Adding something like a second useful taunt to him is rather unnecessary. If it had NO effect on it, and could cancel into itself then it would be at least CONSIDERED but thats not how the thread went about it. He doesn't need a buff, if he wants a better taunt easter egg then MAYBE we can consider making it cancel into itself like sonic. BUT that's really sonics thing, and i'd rather not do that personally. Anywho, here's a quote from the other thread where i explained why he didn't need a buff and responded to bent saying he 'missed Thunda's rules on taunts'

The problem with this thinking bent, is that falcon already has a super taunt. i.e a taunt that is useful. Not all characters are destined to get one. Furthermore, falcon would then have 2 taunts that were useful. Another thing, the rules about taunts haven't changed. Generally, taunts are only made to be useful if there is a large risk involved, or if it isn't practical enough in battle to get a large reward from it. I.E falcons side taunt, its a cool nifty easter egg, but it's not practical enough to be used in battle. and thats the way it was designed. Furthermore, we don't want to make Falcon less interesting to play. By downplaying his weaknesses and making his MU's better overall when he's already solid, we take alot of strategy out of the counterplays that are necessary in those situations. Which is generally a bad idea.

The thread was locked because it became a cat fight, where things became personal and people were even REPORTING each others posts. It became detrimental to the health of the discussion and simply locking it and having someone make a new one was a simple solution. It had nothing to do with coding him. Discussion on the matter is always welcome, however let us please take it to the new thread mmkay? not trying to be a Butt with this whole thing.

 

[NEWB]

Re: Meta knight!

It looks like the update is just around the corner sorta. Not much else to say here about meta knight untill after the update.

Ok then, so that matter is resolved if not unsatisfactory to some. I never really thought falcon needed anything either, I just don't see a logical reason to not to do something so harmless. I'm sure some people would have appreciated it. Bent has a point when he says the taunt is now come on punch me instead of come on get your ass over he, I'll kill you.

For the record, it makes NO logical sense to taunt a dead foe. Taunts are most satisfactory and fun when your opponent is STILL alive and trying to kill you. I don't whose idea it was to think that a taunt is just a pose you do when everyone is dead, but that person is a moron. Stop calling them taunts of you are going to think like that. Taunts are MEANT for the taunter to mess around, be silly, and (slightly) agitate a foe. Taunts that don't do this aren't taunts or worth doing. Some taunts I notice are sorta just in game victory poses and others literaly do nothing. Falcons come on taunt is a taunt but isn't being treated like one entirely. Does anyone REALlY think that using the force is still funny? The only way I would love this if it didn't effect fighters and it allowed falcon to call to him all items infront of him, canceling into picking up an item. That would be awesome and hilarious if he flung a bomb or a barrel into his face. I guess I need to make a thread for taunts then.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Re: Meta knight!

The pull effect screws Ness and Lucas hard.

META KNIGHT PLZ.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Here's a relevant post I made in response to some posts about Falcon in the Metaknight topic:

Just for the record Newb, It's literally 2 lines of code in his file.

That's all? Would you please teach me how to edit it myself, or link me to a good tutorial? I could test my suggestions before I post them then...

It's not that we don't want to code it, and we aren't being stingy.

So you're not against idea of buffing Falcon's taunts a little, but you don't want to give even small buffs to characters who don't really need them. Is that right?

This update is an update thats polishing and making everything look more professional, removing unnecessary things that didn't need to be there to make the game less 'Brawl Vault like'.

The only thing I really wanted to see removed from MAX 1.01 was Mario's Metal Cap taunt. Everything else felt good and Minus-y to me... I'm sad to hear the YOSHIFOOT is getting the boot (heh), and DK's "shaking off damage" taunt made sense to me because he's such a big target / damage sponge.

I'm worried that the currently low-tier characters are bringing down the higher-tier characters by keeping them from being reaching their maximum Minus potential. Characters like R.O.B. and Lucario aren't hurt as much as "B" Tier characters like Falcon, who are prevented from rising to "A" Tier just because they're "good enough".

I think features should only be removed if they're harming the balance, gameplay, or overall fun of Minus. If they just don't make sense, consider how fun they are to use, and how much the players like them before you remove them. Those latter two things are more important than just "making sense" -- leave that to vanilla Brawl and Project M.

Adding something like a second useful taunt to him is rather unnecessary.

Did you see my two newest suggestions in the Falcon Side Taunt thread? I think those two changes would be quite balanced.

Also, it may be unnecessary, but it would be cool, it would fit the theme of Minus well, and at least 5 other characters each have two taunts that are useful:

Spoiler

Jigglypuff (Gravity and Deflate*)
Link (Mortal Draw and possibly upcoming Fairy taunt replacement)
Lucario (ULTRATAUNT and Power-up taunt)
Luigi (Double Fireball and Luigi Kick)
Mario (Metal Cap and Giant Mario*)
Toon Link (Wind Waker and Sword Flurry*)

* Very situational, but even "rarely useful" is still useful.

If it had NO effect on it, and could cancel into itself then it would be at least CONSIDERED but thats not how the thread went about it. He doesn't need a buff, if he wants a better taunt easter egg then MAYBE we can consider making it cancel into itself like sonic.

Being able to cancel Falcon's Side Taunt into anything, or just a grab, jab, shield, etc. would be better than leaving it as-is.

Only being able to cancel it into itself would not help at all... Besides, Sonic can cancel his taunts into anything, not just the taunts themselves, IIRC.

BUT that's really sonics thing, and i'd rather not do that personally.

Kirby can cancel his taunts too.

Anywho, here's a quote from the other thread where i explained why he didn't need a buff and responded to Bent 00 saying he "missed Thunda's rules on taunts":

Spoiler

The problem with this thinking bent, is that falcon already has a super taunt. i.e a taunt that is useful. Not all characters are destined to get one. Furthermore, falcon would then have 2 taunts that were useful. Another thing, the rules about taunts haven't changed. Generally, taunts are only made to be useful if there is a large risk involved, or if it isn't practical enough in battle to get a large reward from it. I.E falcons side taunt, its a cool nifty easter egg, but it's not practical enough to be used in battle. and thats the way it was designed. Furthermore, we don't want to make Falcon less interesting to play. By downplaying his weaknesses and making his MU's better overall when he's already solid, we take alot of strategy out of the counterplays that are necessary in those situations. Which is generally a bad idea.

I responded to that post already.

The thread was locked because it became a cat fight, where things became personal and people were even REPORTING each others posts. It became detrimental to the health of the discussion and simply locking it and having someone make a new one was a simple solution.

It's sad how one person can derail a topic just by being rude. I was hoping someone would just delete the offensive post, rather than lock the whole topic.

Ok then, so that matter is resolved if not unsatisfactory to some.

I don't think the topic is completely off-limits yet, as long as we discuss it in the right thread, without flaming each other.

I never really thought Falcon needed anything either, I just don't see a logical reason to not to do something so harmless. I'm sure some people would have appreciated it. Bent 00 has a point when he says the taunt is now "Come on, punch me" instead of "Come on, get your ass over here, I'll kill you".

For the record, it makes NO logical sense to taunt a dead foe. Taunts are most satisfactory and fun when your opponent is STILL alive and trying to kill you. I don't know whose idea it was to think that a taunt is just a pose you do when everyone is dead, but that person is a moron. Stop calling them taunts of you are going to think like that. Taunts are MEANT for the taunter to mess around, be silly, and (slightly) agitate a foe. Taunts that don't do this aren't taunts or worth doing. Some taunts I notice are sorta just in game victory poses and others literally do nothing. Falcon's "Come on" taunt is a taunt but isn't being treated like one entirely.

THANK YOU. It's nice to finally read something supportive after so long!

Does anyone REALLY think that using the Force is still funny? The only way I would love this if it didn't effect fighters and it allowed Falcon to call to him all items in front of him, cancelling into picking up an item. That would be awesome and hilarious if he flung a bomb or a barrel into his face.

I thought the "Falcon Force" had potential, but it's never going to be buffed enough to be useful, so I'd rather see it removed. That effect on items would have been funny!

I guess I need to make a thread for taunts then.

Sounds like a good idea to me!

 

[Thor]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Captain. Falcon. Doesn't. Need. Buffs. Not. Right. Now.

Heck, I vote that if we end up making all taunts for all characters useful, Falcon's taunts are the last to get buffed, so it doesn't mess up the balance of the game. His one primary weakness is still workaroundable (I'm surprised not to hear complaints about Falco lasers actually... those things can be kind of nasty). Falcon's powerup taunt is awesome as is (I wouldn't mind seeing the Punch either be his 64 Punch (so a little slowed) or else even faster then now - current speed feels awkward to me - or is it just the speed of the knee and I'm not good with it?) and considering the amazing utility Falco's taunts have, CF needs no taunt buffs. He's already top-tier material just held back from the top by the other two characters that are top tier (kind of like Dedede being held back by MK, ICs, and [to a lesser extent] Olimar, although Dedede has significantly more problems than CF in Brawl Minus Max).

Taunts are definitely for after KOing - in a world where people were bad they'd be a great way to make people angry and not use their invincibility properly (Especially Wolf's "What's the matter, scared?" if they're on the revival platform). As is, they're a celebration and also a "come on and fight me, don't hide up there" sort of thing. The only taunts that make any sense before KOing was Luigi's down taunt, because it's the best way to KO someone (sans Sacred combo I guess) in vBrawl, and gravity and some TL stuff has been added to that list. But taunts, outside of Kirby's, shouldn't be a tool mid-match to achieve an end, at least in my opinion. They're for after KOing, and in a few specific cases for powering up or finishing the stock. Falcon's "Come ON!" is his way of saying "Get off the revival platform and fight me like a man [but you're still less manly than I]!"

I'd like to see Falco's reflector have a more useful hitbox on the way out - it might make him too good (in which case don't), but as is it's just a 4% restraining order, instead of helping to set up combos (it's like Falco's counter - get off me (and it reflects stuff) but it's less useful than the other shines unless you kick it above their head as you land, which leaves Falco kind of open in my opinion). It also seems to drag my opponent past me half the time and right next to me half the time - I'd love to see it move characters to a consistent location to make followups less of a guessing game (that might just be me cancelling it at bad times or something though).

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Neither YOSHIFOOT or Metal Mario are being removed. Someone must be spreading rumors...YOSHIFOOT is being adjusted, but not taken out.

I'm glad YOSHIFOOT is staying in, but I still say Metal Mario needs to go...

Here's a suggestion: If the dev team is really commited to keeping Metal Mario in, how about implementing something like this:

- Just like how ZSS is selected in vBrawl, if a Mario player holds the R button as he goes to the SSS, he will play as Metal Mario for the entire match. If you want to play against a CPU AI-controlled always-metal Mario, hold R on their controller.

This would at least make it easier for players to practice against or as Metal Mario. Too often, less-experienced players do terribly against Metal Mario, and are convinced that "Mario is WAYY OP". They have little opportunity to practice against him, so they never get any better against him.

Everyone in my groups (except the Mario mains) still hates Metal Mario. Looks like I'll just have to remove him from our local codeset...

I'm worried that the currently low-tier characters are bringing down the higher-tier characters by keeping them from being reaching their maximum Minus potential. Characters like R.O.B. and Lucario aren't hurt as much as "B" Tier characters like Falcon, who are prevented from rising to "A" Tier just because they're "good enough".

Captain Falcon is still (and always was) one of the best characters in Minus, and we're working on bringing everyone else to his level while bringing the more OP characters down to earth.

High "B" Tier isn't exactly "one of the best"... Last I checked, at least 8 characters are better than Falcon:

S Tier
Lucario +/- 0

A Tier
2. D3 +/- 0
3. Zelda/Sheik +1
4. Fox +1
5. ROB +1
6. Link -3
7. Wolf +2

B Tier
8. Ganondorf +3
9. Captain Falcon +10

Are you bringing all of them down to Falcon's level? That would require a lot of nerfs.

If you can name a situation where Giant Mario is useful rather than a deterrent or joke, you'll get a cookie.

You can use it to survive a Final Smash, can't you?

Mortal Draw is being restored to its more taunt-like status (it was made practical without us really knowing until it was too late).

Nooo...! You can actually land it occasionally if you draw a Deku Nut, short-hop, air dodge-drop the Nut, and land right in front of your stunned opponent.

Please don't remove this, it's too fun when it works! It's one of those combos worthy of guaranteed crowd cheering IMO.

Double Fireball is actually worse than just jumping and shooting a fireball, or even shooting one in place.

It's better than inviting your opponent to punch you in the face.

The only real useful ones on that list are Gravity, Ultra Taunt, Power-Up Taunt, and possibly Wind Waker.

Deflate can be useful, it's just outclassed by Gravity. Still a useful taunt.

Toon Link's Sword Flurry actually does a good bit of damage if it lands -- MUCH better than inviting your opponent to punch you in the face.

Kirby has that ability due to all of his taunts having the utility of getting rid of an unwanted copy ability.

Can't Peach cancel one or two of her taunts too...? There may be more I'm forgetting.

It's sad how one person can derail a topic just by being rude. I was hoping someone would just delete the offensive post, rather than lock the whole topic.

Two wrongs don't make a right. If he was being rude, promptly ignore it.

If someone reports a message for flaming in the future, please promptly delete the offensive message, instead of preserving it by locking the topic.

For the record, it makes NO logical sense to taunt a dead foe. Taunts are most satisfactory and fun when your opponent is STILL alive and trying to kill you. I don't whose idea it was to think that a taunt is just a pose you do when everyone is dead, but that person is a moron.

Actually it makes plenty of sense. it's like making a fist-pump when you walk out of a classroom knowing you got an 100 on the test. You don't do it in front of them, but you do it yourself to celebrate your personal victory. Also you're taunting the opponent, not their character.

Both times are appropriate for taunting, but NEWB's idea is more in line with the actual definition:

Taunt (noun)
- a remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone.
Taunt (verb)
- provoke or challenge (someone) with insulting remarks.

What you're describing, "to celebrate your personal victory" is closer to a "brag", "flaunt", or a "vaunt" than it is to a "taunt".

Brag (verb)
- to speak of (one's own achievements, possessions, etc) arrogantly and boastfully
Flaunt (verb, used without object)
- to parade or display oneself conspicuously, defiantly, or boldly.
Vaunt (noun)
- a boastful action or utterance.

In addition, I will remind you that Falcon has little issues with projectiles and a projectile immune approach move in Raptor Boost specifically designed to address him getting zoned.

Falcon would still have issues with projectiles even if the two latest suggestions I made were implemented. Those two changes would just make Up Taunt and Side Taunt actually worth using occasionally.

 

[Thor]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Every non-projectile based character has issues with projectiles - unless you want everyone to spawn Franklin badges or can propose another solution, then it's nonsensical to buff Falcon to deal with projectiles, as

a) It's one of his few weaknesses outside of maybe recovery (which is still not bad, just average or mediocre)
b) he suffers far less from projectiles than other characters
c) he's got Raptor Boost, which actually does let you get through some stuff, like Falco lasers.

If there were any buff, I'd suggest a buff to Raptor Boost, where holding the B until he starts his movement removes the uppercut at the end, and instead Falcon has 15-20 frames of lag - far less than the uppercut causes by its animation (I believe that is at least 30?) but still plenty punishable, leaving Falcon a better mixup option while still being able to get around projectiles somewhat better. Personally I think this is too much to give to Falcon, but if it means we stop hearing about side taunt buffs, it could be worth it.

Also, I'll reiterate, one use of the taunt is taunting them off the revival platform, which Falcon's COME ON! and Wolf's What's the matter, Scared? do perfectly (I also think it's a celebration of sorts, and was simply named a taunt because it's also taunting them over your victory, if they care).

Is Jigglypuff's Sing supposed to keep people asleep for the duration of her singing? I can never seem to wake up beforehand and punish, no matter how fast I mash or how low my percent is... this maybe doesn't belong here but I don't want to open a separate thread just to ask.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Falcon's powerup taunt is awesome as is (I wouldn't mind seeing the Punch either be his 64 Punch (so a little slowed) or else even faster then now - current speed feels awkward to me - or is it just the speed of the knee and I'm not good with it?)

Falcon's secret taunt is indeed awesome as-is, and I sincerely hope nothing is changed about it, the PAWNCH, or the Knee. Everything about Falcon except his side taunt is pretty much perfect. NEWB and I really like the idea of reflecting (me) / breaking (NEWB) projectiles with Up Taunt (complete with the quiet "Yess"), but it is actually useable as-is, unlike side-taunt: "Come on (please punch me in the face)!"

There's a tiny little bug with Falcon's secret taunt if you try to execute it via Up Taunt -> GC "X" (mapped as "Down Taunt") -> Up Taunt: Falcon will keep doing the beginning few frames of the secret taunt repeatedly, kinda twitching in place. Not cool, but solved by learning to just do the secret taunt with the D-Pad only.

Taunts are definitely for after KOing - in a world where people were bad they'd be a great way to make people angry and not use their invincibility properly (Especially Wolf's "What's the matter, scared?" if they're on the revival platform). As is, they're a celebration and also a "come on and fight me, don't hide up there" sort of thing. The only taunts that make any sense before KOing was Luigi's down taunt, because it's the best way to KO someone (sans Sacred combo I guess) in vBrawl, and gravity and some TL stuff has been added to that list. But taunts, outside of Kirby's, shouldn't be a tool mid-match to achieve an end, at least in my opinion. They're for after KOing, and in a few specific cases for powering up or finishing the stock. Falcon's "Come ON!" is his way of saying "Get off the revival platform and fight me like a man [but you're still less manly than I]!"

See what I said in my previous post. I wish Falcon's Side Taunt was essentially saying that, but you know what it's really saying... I've said it enough times already...

Every non-projectile based character has issues with projectiles - unless you want everyone to spawn Franklin badges or can propose another solution, then it's nonsensical to buff Falcon to deal with projectiles, as

a) It's one of his few weaknesses outside of maybe recovery (which is still not bad, just average or mediocre)
b) he suffers far less from projectiles than other characters
c) he's got Raptor Boost, which actually does let you get through some stuff, like Falco lasers.

Neither of the two latest suggestions I made for Falcon's taunts would help him that much against projectiles.

- Super Armor Side Taunt? Falcon still takes damage, and he's vulnerable for a few frames at the end if he doesn't cancel the taunt. If he does cancel the taunt, he's in the middle of another move, so his opponent just has to deal with that move like normal.

- Reflecting Up Taunt / Secret Taunt? An opponent just has to wait until the animation ends, or rush up to Falcon and attack him directly. There should be some frames at the very beginning and/or very end of the taunt where no flame aura is present, and nothing will be reflected then. If that's not enough, Falcon could damage himself by 1% every time he uses Up Taunt or Secret Taunt.

If there were any buff, I'd suggest a buff to Raptor Boost, where holding the B until he starts his movement removes the uppercut at the end, and instead Falcon has 15-20 frames of lag - far less than the uppercut causes by its animation (I believe that is at least 30?) but still plenty punishable, leaving Falcon a better mixup option while still being able to get around projectiles somewhat better. Personally I think this is too much to give to Falcon, but if it means we stop hearing about side taunt buffs, it could be worth it.

Sounds like too much of a buff to me. The two things I'm suggesting are barely "buffs" at all. Any advantage they would give is counterbalanced by a risk or downside.

 

[Glyph]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Some characters have taunts that are useful. Some characters have some that cancel.

Not every character will have one, and a lot will have neither. Using another character as a precedent for adding something doesn't make sense because that taunt is designed for THAT character. Not to mention a lot of the taunts that have additional effects don't help. You can argue that there are uses for them, but you have to dream up wildly unlikely situations to employ them. Luigi's side taunt? Literally just his neutral b with a hella long startup time. Mario's super armor? Unless I'm mistaken, you don't even get the armor until he's fully enlarged. You'd have to start the taunt WAY before your opponent was going to hit you, meaning your opponent (with any sense) would just stop that attack and switch to a grab or wait it out. Things like Link's Mortal Draw are useful, but you only land it as often as you land Deku Nuts or break shields. If you pull that off, then good job! You deserve to take a stock from them. But I can say confidently with the low pull rate on Deku Nuts and how easy it tends to be to avoid it (get in the air and worse case scenario you take some damage) and how rarely you'll see a Link manage to break a shield that its a non-issue.

That's not even to mention that Falcon already HAS a secret taunt that is amazing. He also already has a fantastic answer to being zoned AND projectiles in his side-b. At this point, the blame stops resting on Falcon and more so on the player for failing to take the full advantage of the tools given to them OR that their opponent is making better use of the abilities their character has to overcome Falcon.


And, as a reminder, that 'tier list' is WILDLY inaccurate. Its literally just a list of who I personally felt was the best at the time, and a significant portion of it is completely different than I would even say now (maybe I'll update it tonight or something). There is no 'nerf' you could give Lucario to quote unquote put him on Falcon's level, because they technically ARE on the same level. There's nothing Lucario has that's any scarier than Falcon, its all a matter of player skill.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Hey Glyph, thanks for joining us. Let me ask you this:

Imagine I'm playing you as Falcon, and you're using any of your usual characters. Falcon has the both of the two changes to his taunts I suggested in effect.

Are you going to be effected significantly by them at all, or will you effortlessly work around them?

...

You'd have no problem with them whatsoever, that's my guess.

The latest two suggestions I've made for Falcon's Side Taunt and Up Taunt / Secret Taunt, are barely buffs at all! They might help him out in a cool way very rarely, but they would mostly just be there to make Falcon more fun to play by making those two taunts more useful.

I would understand if Up Taunt / Secret Taunt is not given the ability to reflect, but if the Minus Team won't do something about Falcon's currently STUPID Side Taunt, then something's wrong IMO.

On a different, but similar note, I still think it's really lame that Snake still has the Box as all three of his taunts.

No offense, but I wish Minus would take a few notes from Project M's Snake, Samus, Sonic, and Wario. You're doing great with everyone else, though.

 

[NEWB]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

For the record, I don't like falcons flame shield thing reflecting. Only just breaking projectiles with it.

And yeah taunts are good for both situations and should exist for both situations. Saying otherwise is almost hypocritical. I love taunting people when I get to a nice and cozy spot. That is fine and the perfect time to taunt. Isn't that also an instance of personal gratification?

I don't feel any satisfaction from taunting a koed foe. I just do it for the hell of it cuz everyone does. Try it yourself and you might change your own opinion people.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Re: Meta knight!

For the record, it makes NO logical sense to taunt a dead foe. Taunts are most satisfactory and fun when your opponent is STILL alive and trying to kill you.

Okay, well if that's your opinion on what taunts are then that's fine. Generally people say to taunt after a kill because thats when its safe. However, taunts are exactly what they are. TAUNTS. meant to taunt your opponent, regardless of when used. I never said they were DESIGNED to be used when characters are killed, im saying if you want to do it onstage or in their face then getting punished is on you same as in any other smash title. Same reason why few people uses taunts in competitive play in any other smash game unless they score a kill and feel like trolling the opponent. Minus isn't JUST about screwing around and having fun, it's also supposed to be balanced and not stupid. I don't like when people say things like 'This is minus, things are supposed to be silly' because it portrays a negative image over the entire competitive smash community of what we are.

Minus is being polished for competitive play more then ever in the next update, hence the removal of unnecessary elements and things that generally don't make sense or add anything significant other then 'oh that's cool' to the game. So while minus IS INDEED silly, and fun, and crazy. it IS NOT supposed to be a joke to competitive minded players. Which from the current standpoint, everyone OUTSIDE our community thinks unfortunately. In part from previous bad marketing and flat out NO marketing in the past, especially to appeal to competitive players.

One last thing. Lucario, as I've state, is receiving some final adjustments in this. so i can assure you it's not that we don't want to buff characters to their level. In fact, that's the opposite. My idea of what should be done from here is buff all weaker characters to their level in order to make the tiers closer. However, buffing things like taunts and creating new multi-input moves or new modes and whatnot is NOT what should be done to buff characters that are already really good. Instead, if a character is unanimously agreed upon needing buffs by the community then it is our jobs as devs to analyze the situation and take measures accordingly to moves that are already present. in addition, Generally we try to remove things from the game that are non-native smash inputs. Like pressing a+b at the same time to do things.

also, i hope people realize that i only use caps in my text to accentuate words, not profess any kind of anger or irritation~

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

For the record, I don't like falcons flame shield thing reflecting. Only just breaking projectiles with it.

My mistake. I edited the post I mentioned you in to reflect this.

And yeah taunts are good for both situations and should exist for both situations. Saying otherwise is almost hypocritical. I love taunting people when I get to a nice and cozy spot. That is fine and the perfect time to taunt. Isn't that also an instance of personal gratification?

I taunt whenever it is safe and it feels right, which is often. I love provoking opponents into playing right into my hands!

I don't feel any satisfaction from taunting a KOed foe. I just do it for the hell of it cuz everyone does. Try it yourself and you might change your own opinion people.

It is definitely more fun to pull off a taunt when you know it's risky to do so. Taunting after a KO is just routine...

 

[Sammi-husky]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Hey Glyph, thanks for joining us. Let me ask you this:

Imagine I'm playing you as Falcon, and you're using any of your usual characters. Falcon has the both of the two changes to his taunts I suggested in effect.

Are you going to be effected significantly by them at all, or will you effortlessly work around them?

Let me ask you a question as well. Will this significantly help falcon in any way? or if they aren't implemented will you effortlessly work around it?

If your answer is yes that will make a big enough difference for you to be going on about it this much, then it would obviously be a buff that would affect balance. If your answer is no, it wouldn't make a significant difference, then we would literally only be making falcon have that taunt to satisfy your want for it to be useful

 

[Glyph]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

You're right, I probably wouldn't start losing games because of those changes. But that's no reason to change something that really doesn't call for a change in the first place. The only argument in favor of these changes is 'it'd be neat', and that's not what we're shooting for at this time. Currently I'm thinking the best solution is to revert his side-taunt to just that, a taunt. We'll remove the pull and then it won't be any less useful than every other regular taunt in the game.

Also, you might not have fun taunting after stocks, but that doesn't mean that you should be rewarded for taunting when your opponent is alive. There's a reason most people don't taunt mid-stock, its because they don't like giving up free hits. If you really feel the need to taunt before their dead, just combo them and knock them offstage. Give 'em a taunt when you've pulled something cool off and they can't punish you for it. But regardless, taunts are pretty low on the priority list of things that need to be worked on when there's still a pretty sizable amount of work to be done here.

So, and Pin feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, minus will NOT be including any buffs to Falcon's taunts. They do not solve any issues he can't already solve with his current moveset.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Meta knight!

Minus isn't JUST about screwing around and having fun, it's also supposed to be balanced and not stupid. I don't like when people say things like 'This is minus, things are supposed to be silly' because it portrays a negative image over the entire competitive smash community of what we are.

Minus is being polished for competitive play more then ever in the next update, hence the removal of unnecessary elements and things that generally don't make sense or add anything significant other then 'oh that's cool' to the game. So while minus IS INDEED silly, and fun, and crazy. it IS NOT supposed to be a joke to competitive minded players. Which from the current standpoint, everyone OUTSIDE our community thinks unfortunately. In part from previous bad marketing and flat out NO marketing in the past, especially to appeal to competitive players.

I agree with all that -- I actually take Minus very seriously. However, please don't go so far as to remove slightly silly or nonsensical things that the majority of players LIKE just because you want Minus to appear more mature.

"That guy who farts to fly around and s***s out rolling crates" ALONE is going to keep Minus from ever being taken seriously by most people.

Buffing things like taunts and creating new multi-input moves or new modes and whatnot is NOT what should be done to buff characters that are already really good.

As I've said already, the changes I suggested for Falcon's taunts are barely buffs at all.

Don't want to make his Up Taunt / Secret Taunt reflect or break projectiles? Fine. It seems like a cool idea to NEWB and I, but okay.

Side Taunt, on the other hand, NEEDS attention. No other move in the game so obviously begs your opponent to punish you. There's some awesome, yet balanced things you could do to it, but if you're absolutely against all of the suggestions that have been made, just give it a cancel... Or at the very least revert Side Taunt back to the way it was in vBrawl. The tiny little pull you added to it was nifty at first, but now I see that it just brings the opponent's punishment down on Falcon that much faster.

Instead, if a character is unanimously agreed upon needing buffs by the community then it is our jobs as devs to analyze the situation and take measures accordingly to moves that are already present. in addition, Generally we try to remove things from the game that are non-native smash inputs. Like pressing a+b at the same time to do things.

I still don't get why people are looking at these two suggestions as significant "buffs". They're more like jokes that occasionally get a big laugh.

 

[Thor]

Side taunt is supposed to beg your opponent to punish you. Taunts are supposed to make the opponent want to smack you around for having the guts (hubris) to taunt them midmatch. Or to get them off revival platforms.

I wouldn't mind seeing the pull go away at all.

 

[Bent 00]

Side taunt is supposed to beg your opponent to punish you. Taunts are supposed to make the opponent want to smack you around for having the guts (hubris) to taunt them midmatch. Or to get them off revival platforms.

By that logic, Falcon's Side Taunt is doing it's "job" WAY TOO WELL.

Do you know Falcon's character at all? Would he ever just invite an opponent to come up and beat on him, free pass? No way! This isn't Gray Fox we're talking about.

In F-Zero GX, the creators of Falcon's ENTIRE WORLD challenged him a race. He said "Come off it! You think you can beat me? No way!!"

Falcon beat the gods of his world at their own game.

When he says "Come on!" in Smash, he should be daring cowardly opponents to approach him, ready and able to react if they do. Instead, he just stands there and lets his foe get a free hit in...

Falcon deserves a better Side Taunt.

 

[Glyph]

Bent, you've made your case and the devs have explained why they've chosen to not include it. Please stop bringing it up and let it go.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Hey Glyph, thanks for joining us. Let me ask you this:

Imagine I'm playing you as Falcon, and you're using any of your usual characters. Falcon has the both of the two changes to his taunts I suggested in effect.

Are you going to be effected significantly by them at all, or will you effortlessly work around them?

Let me ask you a question as well. Will this significantly help falcon in any way? or if they aren't implemented will you effortlessly work around it?

Yes, but only rarely. Super Armor on Side Taunt would would allow Falcon to predict and survive heavy attacks with good timing. More often than not, his opponent would just bait out the Side Taunt, and punish him when it ends or he cancels out of it -- but when it successfully lures an opponent in, and Falcon catches them with the cancel it would be too satisfying.

Reflecting Up Taunt / Secret Taunt would turn projectile spammers' attacks against them in a funny way ("Yess") if they fire with bad timing. If their timing is good, their shot will hit Falcon when his flame aura is down, or they will make the more obvious choice of attacking him directly if he's close enough.

If your answer is yes that will make a big enough difference for you to be going on about it this much, then it would obviously be a buff that would affect balance.

Like I've said numerous times before, these would barely be buffs at all because a skilled opponent would see through them and not fall for Falcon's tricks most of the time.

If your answer is no, it wouldn't make a significant difference, then we would literally only be making falcon have that taunt to satisfy your want for it to be useful

Does anyone disagree that these would be fun and interesting abilities to give Falcon? These changes are to make Falcon give Falcon some variety; some mindgames to use against ranged opponents. As-is, projectile spammers know they have Falcon in a tight spot if they get far away from him. With these changes, they would have to stay on their toes, rather than simply sit back and fire cheap shots at Falcon.

You said this was only 2 lines of code we're talking about, right? If that's the case, how about we go ahead and make the FitCaptain.pac file and test it out? I bet you most testers will like it than not.

You're right, I probably wouldn't start losing games because of those changes. But that's no reason to change something that really doesn't call for a change in the first place. The only argument in favor of these changes is 'it'd be neat'...

Sounds like a good enough reason to add it in to me, especially if it's as simple as editing 2 lines of code, like Sammi said. It wouldn't hurt anything, and would make Falcon just a little more versatile and fun to play.

...and that's not what we're shooting for at this time.

Maybe some time down the road, then? If it's such a simple edit, just try it out sometime.

Currently I'm thinking the best solution is to revert his side-taunt to just that, a taunt. We'll remove the pull and then it won't be any less useful than every other regular taunt in the game.

That's at least better than leaving it as-is... Wasted potential, though...

Taunts are pretty low on the priority list of things that need to be worked on when there's still a pretty sizable amount of work to be done here.

Perhaps the devs will reconsider when they finish all the major stuff, and get around to working on smaller things like taunts, Final Smashes, items, modes, etc....

Ehh... I've exhausted everything I can possibly say about those suggestions of mine. I'm done.

This is probably the last time I'll try to pitch any ideas to you guys. Even two little things took a lot of effort to promote, and even though it sounds very interesting and balanced (to me, at least), it's not even being tried out...

I wanted to say I contributed something significant to Minus, since I've invested so much time into it. Oh well. Guess I should spend my efforts elsewhere.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Re: Buffs (Re-Do)

Bent, your literally only pitching ideas about buffing the same character in the same way multiple times. You can't say that we've shot down all your ideas. PLEASE keep pitchin ideas. We love that sort of thing, but when you promote somthing (ESPECIALLY online) be prepared to meet resistance

You seem to be talking about playing minus in a fun way with friends and items and cool shenanigans. However, like i said, adding in the taunt is a matter of it not hurting anything to you, whereas WE keep saying that we are trying to not add ANYTHING AT ALL to the game that isn't necessary.

Now, im moving all these posts to the captain thread

 

[Bent 00]

Bent, you've made your case and the devs have explained why they've chosen to not include it. Please stop bringing it up and let it go.

Fine, I'm tired of trying to promote it to everyone anyway. It sure has taken a lot of typing to sway the Minus Team's opinions on things... I have the second-highest number of posts on this board (208 now), yet I feel like I've influenced Minus very, very little. You guys are stubborn. So, I'm done pitching new ideas that obviously aren't appreciated.

I really felt like these two suggestions would work well, and I hoped they would find support. Unfortunately, it looks like the only way I'll ever see them in action is to find out how to add them in myself... Which is unlikely given how little free time I have anymore.

If anyone would help me out with this or just link me to the tutorials that helped you learn PSA, I'd appreciate it.

It's a pain to back up a proposal this much only to never see it realized, especially if it's so simple to make.

 

[NEWB]

Even if you stop making suggestions, which would be a shame, please weigh in on all the changes and suggestions other people say too! We are all very knowledgeable about minus, and we work together to at least balance this game if not make it.

 

[Thor]

Falcon beat the gods of his world at their own game.

When he says "Come on!" in Smash, he should be daring cowardly opponents to approach him, ready and able to react if they do. Instead, he just stands there and lets his foe get a free hit in...

That's the point? Even if he gives you freebies, he's so manly and tough he'll kick your *** anyway. At least, that's what I got from it - he's gotta keep things interesting for himself.

Also, literally no one but MAYBE Falco can actually "sit back" and fire cheap shots (Except Fox, but no one cares about Fox camping because his camping doesn't do any flinching), because Captain Falcon is too fast for anyone to actually camp as hard as you make it sound [except Falco maybe] and you can Raptor Boost right through all his lasers while he's firing them to get a hit on Falco and stop the laser spam. ROB can camp him a little but he can't sit back and do so, he has to actually play aggressive or he'll get read and punished; reading his movements lets you cut him off.

Actually, if you look at Smash history, no character has ever been able to sit back and fire cheap shots at CF except Smash 64 Fox (Watch footage) and that's ONLY because A) his lasers stunned and B) no airdodge. Brawl Falcon is not camped nearly so hard as you make it out even by Brawl Falco (side + b makes things annoying, but Falcos don't just sit back and fire "cheap shots") Also if you can't handle projectile spam, well... get good. The only character who should actually have real trouble with heavy projectile usage at this point is Ganondorf and maybe DK - his projectiles are slow in startup (up+B/neutral+b)/is not terribly fast - Falcon's significantly higher mobility means he's not in the best position (With his own projectile) but he's fine (and still better off than Ike and Marth, who have mobility tricks but they are more limited than CF's raw speed).

CF is a high tier, maybe top tier (I'd have to actually analyze a bunch of stuff and look at gameplay), but he's not nearly as beaten back as you make him out to be.

Also, posting 208 times or whatever doesn't mean your idea will be listened to if you present the same thing for the same reason over and over again. It just means you'll irritate the devs.