Project Ganondorf

[Valravn]

Ganondorf's wavedash is terrible, though. Wavelanding is where it's at, and he's the easiest character in the game to do it with. You actually have more leniency wavelanding with PM Ganondorf than teching. It's hard for me to think of wavelanding/wavedashing etc as 'abusing' anything when they were intentionally put into the game, and each character is balanced around having them and dealing with it.

My roommate is one of the best Squirtle players in PM, who is the fastest character around, except for maybe Fox or Sonic. While he does beat me most of the time, the matchup itself is not a problem. (My lack of practice and tech skill is the primary gap.) Ganon's grounded Wizard's Foot also has very quick startup, as does grounded Flame Choke. The trick is finding moments where you won't whiff, like reading Squirtle's shellshift turnaround animation, when he has 15 frames where he cannot shield. Landing a few Fairs (or one Dair) generally ends the stock in my favor.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I don't play Melee or PM on that level/at all, so it really has no impact on how I feel about him in those. I like him in Smash 4, and that's the bottom line.

 

[Valravn]

Hey, that's cool, I'm just trying to give some perspective on why I like the various Ganondorfs. If I had to pick a favorite Sm4sh character, it'd still probably be Ganon or maybe WFT.

 

[Thor]

I mean, we all love warlock punch as it is

YOU LIE!!!!

Ganondorf's wavedash is terrible, though. Wavelanding is where it's at, and he's the easiest character in the game to do it with. You actually have more leniency wavelanding with PM Ganondorf than teching. It's hard for me to think of wavelanding/wavedashing etc as 'abusing' anything when they were intentionally put into the game, and each character is balanced around having them and dealing with it.

My roommate is one of the best Squirtle players in PM, who is the fastest character around, except for maybe Fox or Sonic. While he does beat me most of the time, the matchup itself is not a problem. (My lack of practice and tech skill is the primary gap.) Ganon's grounded Wizard's Foot also has very quick startup, as does grounded Flame Choke. The trick is finding moments where you won't whiff, like reading Squirtle's shellshift turnaround animation, when he has 15 frames where he cannot shield. Landing a few Fairs (or one Dair) generally ends the stock in my favor.

There's a 20 frame window to tech... I guarantee you his waveland is less lenient than that.

Also, wavelanding and wavedashing are mechanically nearly identical... you are likely referring to perfect wavelanding, but if a Ganondorf could do a frame-perfect wavedash with the optimum angle it would still be fairly close to a waveland, although the startup is longer due to his jumpsquat [there's some ECB manipulation stuff that makes a perfect wavedash not quite as good as a perfect waveland as far as I know].

What is the name of your roommate/what is his smash tag? Any videos of him? You have me curious as to who this PM Squirtle is...

 

[Valravn]

He's Daftatt, same guy registered on the forums here. He mostly plays Falcon/Fox in Minus though. Western Washington just put together a power ranking last month and he's not on it yet, but I think he'll be there once he starts going to more big tournaments again.

Here's a tech video he made a while ago, with associated diagram.
Here's a video from one of the last Smash in the Woods grand finals before we ended for the summer, though it was on 3.5. (We're starting up again soon with the new version when classes start at Evergreen.)

"The window for teching is pretty similar to the window for 'hitting L and doing something other than landing lag as you enter the ground'" is more what I meant. If you're too early, it's an early waveland, if you're on time, it's a regular one, and if you're late you might just L-cancel. His collision diamond is really well suited for wavelanding because of his long jumpsquat and how he balls up a bit in tumble/double jump.

 

[Mohl]

YOU LIE!!!!

Am I alone in liking warlock punch as it is?

 

[Pin Clock]

Am I alone in liking warlock punch as it is?

No. The ones that don't are just really vocal about it.

 

[Thor]

No. The ones that don't are just really vocal about it.

Collectively saying "We all like it" is still factually inaccurate.

Plus being able to type "YOU LIE!!!" in all caps is actually pretty satisfying, at least when doing so is actually justified.

Spoiler

inb4 Pin or someone else responds with "YOU LIE!!!"

 

[Pin Clock]

Collectively saying "We all like it" is still factually inaccurate.

Plus being able to type "YOU LIE!!!" in all caps is actually pretty satisfying, at least when doing so is actually justified.

Spoiler

inb4 Pin or someone else responds with "YOU LIE!!!"

YOU LIE!

In any case, I didn't say everyone liked it, but that the ones that don't are more vocal about it. Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Bent 00]

Maybe it's time for another poll? According to the last one, 59.1% of the voters preferred the Cancellable Warlock Punch over the un-cancelleable one introduced in MAX 3.3.

Except, wait... In this case, it doesn't matter what the fans want.

Even if 90% of Minus fans wanted to see Minus 'Dorf's Neutral B changed, I doubt the devs would change it.

Not trying to be antagonistic here -- that's just the way it is.

Anyway, this topic isn't about Warlock Punch by itself... It's about a total rebuild of 'Dorf, for Custom builds.

Would it be difficult for BronzeGreekGod to port this to Minus if it doesn't rely on Project M-specific code very much? Would anyone here be interested in porting it if BGG gives permission? I've sent him a few messages, but haven't received a reply yet.

 

[Valravn]

I think it's worth mentioning that the vocal (probably minority) are more likely to come to the forums and vote on the issue. Personally, I think the move is fine as it is. I also think it'd be fine if it were able to be cancelled.

Either way, I don't think it's necessary to make assumptions about what the devs want.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I think the devs mostly know what they want in their mod, and having a majority vote in an unofficial poll won't accomplish anything. That's like saying because everyone wants King K. Rool in smash 4 from the poll, Sakurai has no option but to obey the fanbase. Same deal applies to Ridley. Mod or official, the devs have a vision. The fanbase can either come along for the ride, or not.

 

[Bent 00]

I'm just hoping we can get BGG's Project Ganondorf ported into Custom Minus somehow. Then Warlock Punch won't matter as much.

If no one here is capable and interested in porting this once it's released, would anyone else be willing to donate to BGG to make the port happen?

After seeing Project Ganondorf in action, vanilla Minus 'Dorf just seems like so much wasted potential (to me).

 

[Gold_TSG]

Donate what? Chocolate? No one with brains pays for mods like that.

 

[Thor]

YOU LIE!

In any case, I didn't say everyone liked it, but that the ones that don't are more vocal about it. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not lying at all, everything I said was accurate. You never said everyone liked it, but Mohl did. Which is just wrong.

And even if someone puts words in your mouth, you don't have to spit them back out. It was mostly meant as a tongue in cheek thing [that is, someone would probably say typing "YOU LIE!!!" in all caps isn't satisfying.].

Or is humor not allowed on the Minus boards?

 

[Valravn]

I'm pretty sure that was deadpan.

Y'all need to settle down.

 

[Bent 00]

Donate what? Chocolate? No one with brains pays for mods like that.

If that were the only way to get Project Ganondorf in Minus, I'd consider donating a little.

When you don't have the skill/knowledge/time/resources/etc. to get something you want, sometimes you have to pay someone else to do it.

BronzeGreekGod himself had to donate to someone else to get Project Ganondorf rolling. Are you insulting him too?

 

[Valravn]

Oh my goodness, y'all need to stop accusing each other of insulting each other. I'm sure what Gold means is that he doesn't think it's worth paying someone to port an extant free mod to another platform, which will require minimal (if any) serious effort. I personally don't want to donate money to make it happen because I don't particularly care to try out the mod without its intended melee tech capability, but I'd be willing to do some legwork if changes need to be made to port it. Permission pending, of course.

 

[Bent 00]

Oh my goodness, y'all need to stop accusing each other of insulting each other.

It was a pretty clear insult. Let's move on, though.

 

[Valravn]

You could assume that, or you could assume it's a verbal hyperbole for effect.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Oh my goodness, y'all need to stop accusing each other of insulting each other. I'm sure what Gold means is that he doesn't think it's worth paying someone to port an extant free mod to another platform, which will require minimal (if any) serious effort. I personally don't want to donate money to make it happen because I don't particularly care to try out the mod without its intended melee tech capability, but I'd be willing to do some legwork if changes need to be made to port it. Permission pending, of course.

Pretty much this. Not to mention it's just plain silly to be obsessed over something enough to pay for it in the modding community when it's just a modified character. You ain't paying to play Minus, and the total work they do is more than that Ganondorf.

 

[Bent 00]

Pretty much this. Not to mention it's just plain silly to be obsessed over something enough to pay for it in the modding community when it's just a modified character. You ain't paying to play Minus, and the total work they do is more than that Ganondorf.

There's another one. Calling me silly for caring about something enough to pay for it.

You guys just don't understand how much Minus 'Dorf's wasted potential bugs me. Especially Warlock Punch being so lazy and impractical.

I'm still a huge fan of Minus, but I vehemently disagree with some of the dev team's design decisions.

That's not the subject of this topic, though.

 

[Thor]

Wish I'd been around when Minus was newer... at this point it feels like the dev team is trying to avoid big changes, out of either fear that it will disrupt balance or gameplay substantially or worry that it means more work/will be reverted [and seemingly for nothing], which means some changes people want aren't likely to happen, not because they're bad ideas [although some are sometimes], but because it's not a slight tweak to stuff. Instead of really revamping a character design, they're just kinda locked in to what's here.

Then the big changes that ARE made seem to be done somewhat haphazardly [autocancel windows being messed up is a HUGE issue that I'd have instantly pointed out with any character testing if I was a tester, being someone who thoroughly enjoys Pikachu], leaving people upset or mixed at big changes and further discouraging new stuff. It's like a vicious cycle.

That said, I heard somewhere that 4.0 is the planned last patch, so I guess at this point it mostly doesn't matter... it's just disappointing thinking that I'll probably have to go back to 3.3 for the most enjoyable Minus experience with a few other characters mashed in [MAX Ganondorf, 4.0b Lucario, 4.0b Olimar, and I don't even know which Samus, given how all over the place she is...]

 

[Bent 00]

That said, I heard somewhere that 4.0 is the planned last patch, so I guess at this point it mostly doesn't matter... it's just disappointing thinking that I'll probably have to go back to 3.3 for the most enjoyable Minus experience with a few other characters mashed in [MAX Ganondorf, 4.0b Lucario, 4.0b Olimar, and I don't even know which Samus, given how all over the place she is...]

You could call your Custom build "Brawl Minus Thor.0". Get it? 4.0?

 

[Valravn]

Is 4.0 intended to be the final version? That would be disappointing, the game feels like it has a ways to go. I hadn't heard that.