New Buff ideas

[Thor]

New buff ideas (that you hope won't break the character - and nothing old please... don't drag up things they got rid of... if you can help it)? I'd love to see them, and maybe parts of the Minus team would too! [I make one exception to the rule and it's Fire Fox - while completely unnecessary, Fire Fox doing 50% if you got the full charge was AWESOME, and it made side+b to Fire Fox an incredibly stupid but actually potentially rewarding option - I'd love to see it back, in exchange adding some extra SDI-ability to it so it's a little easier to escape - but I don't think this was a controversial removal in any way is why I break the rule once.]

Also, if you have a buff balanced by a nerf, feel free to mention them together.

Some of my ideas:
- If Ganon uses the side+b aerial cancel (the explosion), he gets his jump back, same as with down+b - while I love dragging someone way below FD and exploding up, trying to trap them, it's possible to gimp yourself if you explode too low (and just in general) - getting the jump back makes this less risky and more fun, but doesn't do a whole lot to break him.
- My Falco ideas from another thread fit here too. Jump-cancellable and stronger dtilt, JC-utilt (more at least, if it's there), unconventional meteor on reflector) [and not all, that'd make him better than Sheik probably, maybe better than Dedede or Lucario even...]
- Samus's down+B should go off a little faster - make the animation if she uses down+b twice in a row appear to actually catch her in the explosion, not on top of it please (also makes it a bit better on stage).
- Meta Knight's dair gets a little KB boost and loses a percent or two to be a better gimping tool - it feels really weak right now.
- Fox's Shine lag after ending a shine is land-cancellable, if you aren't holding B - so if you hit tap the B button and Fox is uncrossing his arms and lands that animation is instantly over (throwback to smash 64).
- [someone said this was in already but if it's not] ZSS whip is vBrawl if tapping B, holding it makes it the spot where the whip sucks someone in (or vice versa)
- Sonic gets a KO move (sort of kidding - but seriously, faster fsmash please)
- DK's bair gets his foot invincible (okay this would be just silly, but I'm sure the DKs here would love it)
- Meta Knight's dtilt or dsmash is no longer transcendent priority.
- Ganondorf's utilt actually clears away TL's arrows, since it's supposed to clear traps (according to one older changelog) but doesn't touch the arrows at all.
- Captain Falcon's raptor boost clanks out TL arrows OR it can go through them OR Falcon Kick will always clank out an arrow and stop him (seriously, dealing with 4 arrows on FD because of a respawn is SO ANNOYING!) [sorry I have issues with TL arrows when not given a fast projectile or reflector or Falco lasers...]
- Link fsmash second hit gets a knockback scaling boost and ftilt1 and ftilt2 lose some (why does the tilt KO faster than the new smash... when the smash has charge?)
- Ivysaur's ivycopter now gets a reflector on it but has much less range on the attack - but it also is restored every time one is hit and has massive cancelability frames throughout (can be cancelled by non-B moves) so that instead of being a one-time charge, it makes her recovery a little more manageable but also much better if she's hit out after using the copter or hit out of start-up.
- Squirtle's aerial down+b has more knockback and such (always felt rather weak to me...)
- Dedede can throw more gordos (doubled odds?), in exchange for a slight damage nerf (so they only do like 18-20%, but you can find them much easier for those KOs around 130%).
- Ganondorf's side taunt, if completed without interruption, makes his next non-Gandouken Warlock Punch have zero endlag frames (I think I just opened Pandora's Box, but this might make some peole happy without making others annoyed...)
- Ike can store Eruption, but it doesn't trigger NS mode (he gives up NS mode until he gets rid of the charge?)...something like this... I really liked storing that (this might also violate the rule - if so, oops).

So yeah... cool buff ideas, post here!

 

[Gold_TSG]

Just wanna chime in on that Dorf bit for side B jump restore. That does actually make it broken and too safe. The idea is not to gimp yourself, and if you do, oh well. If he got that back, he could simply side b back out from under, jump, and recover very easily, giving it no risk factor.

 

[Bashdemears]

My god take out the need to cancel wolfs side B with A.attacks to prevent helpless. As there's no reason to let him go helpless. All it does it add unneeded tech skill.

 

[NEWB]

Is there a reason why he just gets to be helpless of you mess up? Is the point to have more tech skill?

You guys could get the same result by giving him endlag that is cancelable with air attacks.

I like the thing with Ganon's utilt clearing arrows and the taunt granting a no lag punch. Or maybe do something else with it. I don't care much for helping falcon since matchups are matchups guys.... TL's arrows are no big deal to most people.......

Back with his utilt, Ganon should get a new graphic for this attack. Send out a shockwave or make the screen quake please. Dedede fsmash could use a screen shake too.

 

[Bashdemears]

Id be okay with him going through some endlag if you screw up. Im not okay with helpless. He has the hardest time recovering out of all the spacies. Why is there so little error room?

That question you brought up about it is pretty much the same question about L-cancels. The answer is "It's there because if you don't do it, you die."

 

[Bent 00]

Good ideas, I agree with several of them. I'll elaborate when I can get on a PC.

I especially like the suggestions regarding Warlock Punch and Toon Link's arrows.

 

[Thor]

Just wanna chime in on that Dorf bit for side B jump restore. That does actually make it broken and too safe. The idea is not to gimp yourself, and if you do, oh well. If he got that back, he could simply side b back out from under, jump, and recover very easily, giving it no risk factor.

The point is "Don't get grabbed by it and if you do, tech." I see your point, but it's not exactly easy to land in my opinion.

This was one of my more problematic ideas, but I think it'd make the move more rewarding without actually breaking it - I don't really think someone should get grabbed by it, and if they do, DI+tech should probably save them... It also makes using the cancel on-stage instead of always grounding them on-stage rewarding, since it means you can combo-chase easier if you've double-jumped already.

And doesn't it already give your opponent their jump back too? This doesn't really work unless they don't tech I believe... if it doesn't, maybe they each get it back? Then it's a stage spike and positional advantage but won't just randomly gimp people even if they tech.

My god take out the need to cancel wolfs side B with A.attacks to prevent helpless. As there's no reason to let him go helpless. All it does it add unneeded tech skill.

Buffering + a bit of endlag to the animation means you have like 20 frames or something to hit a button, and you can theoretically button-mash it - I've never EVER had a problem with SDing thanks to missing a cancel, but that's me - if they gave it non-B move cancellability frames that could work too I guess... I just don't see this as doing anything for Wolf, because if someone practices with Wolf, this is one of the few things that should be gotten literally every time, even under pressure, because it's got such a large margin of error already, at least in my opinion.

I don't care much for helping falcon since matchups are matchups guys.... TL's arrows are no big deal to most people.......

But you'd help Ganon? Any thoughts on MK?

I just want this change because Falcon Kick *seems* to clank with ice arrows most of the time, but doesn't clank with fire arrows (sometimes goes over them) and light arrows (he just always seems to hit those) which seems wildly inconsistent with what goes on... and if you've ever had a TL set up 4 arrows around the middle of FD, you'll realize getting to approach him is a nightmare because you have to come through the air, which means shieldgrab -> uthrow messes you up hard... and while you can try to clank arrows with dtilt, he can shoot projectiles faster than you can clank them, not to mention boomerang - Raptor Boost triggering on arrows or Falcon Kick properly clanking all of them lets you get rid of an arrow cleaner than trying to dtilt for weaving in and out, which improves it marginally but I don't think swings that much, just makes it more livable for CF.

I admit raptor boost cutting through grounded arrows (ignoring them) is pretty silly though - not sure what I was thinking when I typed that.

 

[Other Aether]

I'll read this more closely when I have time (later). For now, a few things that caught my eye:
Squirtle's aerial down-b is actually really strong at point-blank. Ivysaur doesn't really need buffs. Do not make Dedede throw more Gordos! That would make it almost impossible to set up the stage, and change his playstyle away from a fortress of hurt to just a one-dimensional camper.

 

[NEWB]

This^

It's not that I would help Ganon over falcon, it's just the idea that it is a huge ground covering, screen covering hitbox. It makes no sense to me to not have this move destroy arrows.

I didn't know that about falcon kick. It clangs with some or goes over others? That should be more properly addressed. I don't like inconsistency.

That bit about dorf's side b, that cancel is there to stop people from forcing Ganon to ganoncide. It is seldom used because they don't want it to be used more, like warlock punch. This is reasonable to me.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Aerial Flame Choke is perfect as is, since the grounding state it does on stage keeps them grounded for much less time than Dorf Boot does from the air. And if you use it from offstage to get a stage spike, the odds of the opponent recovering from it (tech or no) are entirely dependent on the character, so it's not even viable to begin with. If he did that on someone like say, ROB, he'll just multi-jump and up B back to safety while you are still trying to recover. That's why you don't try to make it too useful against everyone, or too safe for it to become a more viable move. He has a good enough tech chase game with grounded Flame Choke anyway.

 

[Thor]

Squirtle's aerial down-b is actually really strong at point-blank. Ivysaur doesn't really need buffs. Do not make Dedede throw more Gordos! That would make it almost impossible to set up the stage, and change his playstyle away from a fortress of hurt to just a one-dimensional camper.

Squirtle's down+b seems stupid weak at long range - either shorten range and make power more consistent throughout, or make the poke hitboxes at the bottom slightly stronger - I don't want a huge buff here, the point blank is just fine, it's the end part that seems almost useless to have that I think would be nice to see (though I think it can be used to poke Ivysaur out of neutral+b, so maybe people are right and don't change it).

The Ivy buff actually makes it easier but more tenacity to gimp her - like, Falco dair will be easier to land at the expense of lasers not being as good at gimping as an example. I did add "much less priority" because as it is, Captain Falcon functionally can't hit her out of Ivycopter at ALL. I'd like to see her recovery get messed with offstage a bit more, but if she's hit out of Ivycopter as is she's toast, which is why I say it should come back.

I thought Dedede's gordo rate is currently <2%, and when I played him a few times I got like 1 gordo across like 10 minutes of 2 matches, but after watching some stuff it seems the rate is higher... I wanted a rate of about 5%, but something tells me that was adjusted a long time ago and I just missed it is all.

The point of the cancel is to stop ganoncides yes, but why not let it be a stage-spike attempt too? I think some extra functionality to the move would be cool. And it's rarely used not because it's not that great, but because it's kind of hard to land - it telegraphs itself pretty easily offstage and has enough endlag to punish Ganondorf for it (and rather easily if you've got good aerial mobility or stayed on stage). I had wanted it so you could drag someone under FD and use the cancel to try to pop them into the bottom of the stage - and pretty much every character can recover except maybe Olimar if he's lost his b-button recovery, since jump+up+b saves pretty much every character (even Ganondorf, with his terrible vertical recovery move). I see why it might become obnoxious, but I don't think it's as big a deal as people are making it out... unless someone wants to tell me they're really good at landing offstage side+b, which I'd need to see to believe.

I know the grounding is shorter, but it's pretty much always enough for grounded dair or bair, which is pretty awesome - the cancel on-stage just isn't worth it, and I'd like the cancel to be useful for more than just "not a Ganoncide".

But if the devs want it as "no Ganoncide only is why to use it" then someone who's a dev say so (I didn't think NEWB was, if he is that counts) and I'll respect that and not mention it again.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You need to stop going to the devs for everything when someone else counters your debate, dude. I have mained Dorf for the longest time, and he is still one of my best in Minus. Changing his Flame Choke to do that serves no practical purpose whatsoever except to make his recovery pointlessly better, and you're only using FD as an example, when in reality not everyone plays only that stage, and you need to consider the odds of even ever pulling that off in a real match. The move is perfectly fine as it is, and no, the grounded doesn't last long enough to dair unless they're at really high %s, as they almost free themselves instantly below 40% or so. Stage spiking should not be taken into account for a move that isn't intended to be used for that purpose.

 

[NEWB]

lol. I'm not a dev. I'm not even a moderator, though I think could be one? What do they do? I spend a ton of time on these forums and I may be the most active member on this site if I'm not exaggerating.

Especially now that they are working on trhe update, they probably wouldn't say anything if members are on the same page. informed members are particularly useful. If I'm way offbase with what I'm saying, feel free to say so! I don't want to misinterpret the devs point of view like I've done a couple of tiomes before.

 

[justadood]

instead of making specific characters able to clang with TLink's arrows easier, why not just make the arrows have a freaking timer on them, like they should have in the first place?! Dx they should disappear after a short while.. maybe between 1 and 2 minutes... ...it would definitely fix a lot of the stupid crap i have to deal with playing any "slower" characters against Toon Link... and why doesn't Ganon's UTilt break arrows?! X( it should hit everything clangable or attackable on the ground, and aside from that, the shockwave should also be clangable (without interrupting Ganon)... also, characters like metaknight and charizard who seemingly fly when they dash shouldn't get hit by "ground attacks" like D3's trip, DK or Ganon's ground smashes xP ...i have a lot of gripes and ideas with the game, but over-all, there are very few problems.. just "inconveniences"

 

[Thor]

You need to stop going to the devs for everything when someone else counters your debate, dude. I have mained Dorf for the longest time, and he is still one of my best in Minus. Changing his Flame Choke to do that serves no practical purpose whatsoever except to make his recovery pointlessly better, and you're only using FD as an example, when in reality not everyone plays only that stage, and you need to consider the odds of even ever pulling that off in a real match. The move is perfectly fine as it is, and no, the grounded doesn't last long enough to dair unless they're at really high %s, as they almost free themselves instantly below 40% or so. Stage spiking should not be taken into account for a move that isn't intended to be used for that purpose.

1. If the devs hate the idea, I drop it. Otherwise I think it's good.

2. I don't play only FD, far from it (I actually don't really like in Melee, Brawl and Brawl- I'm indifferent (my favorite is probably Smash 64 Peach's Castle, and I also really like Smashville)).

3. I think his recovery is barely buffed. And the odds of "pulling it off in a real match" is exactly why I think this buff would be cool - odds are so low it actually affects a match that it doesn't really affect his viability or strength, it just lets you style if they're at higher percents or whatever.

4. If the devs (who make the game) explicitly say "We don't want cancel doing more stuff" (point 1), I drop it. Otherwise, I think making it good for more than just "didn't kill myself" would be a good idea, and this was my suggestion.

5. Still seems like free bairs a lot it seems to me, and the dair seems fairly easy to land in my opinion as well if you double jump it, but that's just me.

My idea for another buff (probably really broken but would be awesome): Using a UDU taunt, ZSS starts to look like she's gonna form her suit up (like using the Smash Ball) and then it lands and she then stands up as though exiting her suit, and with her is a single armor piece. Obviously takes a long time, but gives her an extra armor piece - probably only usable on a stage where transformations stall a teams match or else after a star KO, but I think it'd be SUPER cool (or if you hold R, you just go back to Samus! though this is probably even more silly, being able to flip for extra armor pieces by doing secret taunt twice or whatever).

 

[justadood]

i agree with the ideas for zerosuit i even proposed something similar before

 

[Gold_TSG]

But you're only looking at it from a stage spike perspective. Anywhere else, he'd be able to abuse it pretty well. Ganoncide someone from a double jump out off the stage, cancel it once you're far out, then just double jump and side b back to the stage, using up b if need be. His recovery is already extremely good horizontally, and his DJ restoration in his down b makes him a bit trickier to chase because of it.

And really, you shouldn't rely on just the devs for everything here. Just because I don't have a dev title or have some famous tournament-going name doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

 

[Thor]

But you're only looking at it from a stage spike perspective. Anywhere else, he'd be able to abuse it pretty well. Ganoncide someone from a double jump out off the stage, cancel it once you're far out, then just double jump and sibe b back to the stage, using up b if need be. His recovery is already extremely good horizontally, and his DJ restoration in his down b makes him a bit trickier to chase because of it.
And really, you shouldn't rely on just the devs for everything here. Just because I don't have a dev title or have some famous tournament-going name doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

If it gives them their DJ back too, it's really just an edgeguarding setup advantage.

I only ask the devs if they just say "No." because then this is a giant waste of time as is. I know you disagree and I like debating this stuff out to see how it affects Ganondorf. I value all the opinions here, I just know that if an idea is never going to implemented because Kien says no, I'm wasting time debating about it, and I'd like to not do it.

It also combos better as I mentioned above, making it better for combos into nair or uair potentially at low percents.

And this buff is well below the utilt change on my list of what I'd like to see if I ordered it properly - the original list was just me listing various things I'd thought of off.

 

[justadood]

how about if the jump (bounce) from cancelling BDown was also cancelable into down B, that way the refreshed jump could come after you've certainly fallen a certain distance? this way, if you want the extra jump, you have to risk falling under your opponent if you don't hit them with it, and only having your jump from much lower... however, this gives you more airtime because if you're high enough, you can use the BDown after BSide and maybe jump to hit your opponent one more time, with barely enough room to return to the stage, only if you land everything perfectly

 

[Sammi-husky]

Squirtle's down+b seems stupid weak at long range - either shorten range and make power more consistent throughout, or make the poke hitboxes at the bottom slightly stronger - I don't want a huge buff here, the point blank is just fine, it's the end part that seems almost useless to have that I think would be nice to see (though I think it can be used to poke Ivysaur out of neutral+b, so maybe people are right and don't change it).

The Ivy buff actually makes it easier but more tenacity to gimp her - like, Falco dair will be easier to land at the expense of lasers not being as good at gimping as an example. I did add "much less priority" because as it is, Captain Falcon functionally can't hit her out of Ivycopter at ALL. I'd like to see her recovery get messed with offstage a bit more, but if she's hit out of Ivycopter as is she's toast, which is why I say it should come back.

I thought Dedede's gordo rate is currently <2%, and when I played him a few times I got like 1 gordo across like 10 minutes of 2 matches, but after watching some stuff it seems the rate is higher... I wanted a rate of about 5%, but something tells me that was adjusted a long time ago and I just missed it is all.

The point of the cancel is to stop ganoncides yes, but why not let it be a stage-spike attempt too? I think some extra functionality to the move would be cool. And it's rarely used not because it's not that great, but because it's kind of hard to land - it telegraphs itself pretty easily offstage and has enough endlag to punish Ganondorf for it (and rather easily if you've got good aerial mobility or stayed on stage). I had wanted it so you could drag someone under FD and use the cancel to try to pop them into the bottom of the stage -

The flame choke already DOES stage spike people with ganon surviving. And it is impossible for any character to get back from it. I play against a REALLY good dorf main and this is a constant form of death. And i main Lucario, so it's not as if my character is any short of recovery or aerial options. There is no need to pointlessly buff the recovery of a character when the move in question is literally one of the most lethal off stage options in the game. While the move is telegraphed, there isn't much you can do to punish them for it aside from a few characters spikes. If you save ganons double jump and s-hop->fade away->flamechoke you'll be in such a positive position that most of the time the opponent will back off. Even then, if you connect with his amazing uair you can pretty much guarantee offstage flame choke from a poorly DI'd opponent.

In any case, ganon is one of the really good characters in the game if played correctly. Not saying people don't know how to use him, im saying MOST people in my experience don't commit to learning him to his fullest potential. Where he becomes a huge threat. While some characters do wall him, he is still a very powerful threat to be reckoned with especially against opponents who don't wall him and is not in need of very many buffs.

 

[Thor]

The flame choke already DOES stage spike people with ganon surviving. And it is impossible for any character to get back from it.

Nope. Meta Knight. Also do you mean when teched or not, because if you tech it and DI it, Lucario should be able to survive if they each get jump back (if not I can see it'd be tricky).

I get your point though. You and Gold_TSG have convinced me to drop this idea.

Still want utilt change (and a bunch of other stuff listed, but especially the utilt).

 

[Gold_TSG]

I would be for having utilt destroy TL arrows, since it'd make sense. I don't understand why they don't already. Maybe they still count as airborn, despite sticking to the ground?

 

[justadood]

something like that the reason was so they didn't get "stuck underground" and end up hitting no one ...not sure how to fix this unless getting the arrows to react more precisely or increasing the hitbox size of either one...

 

[Sammi-husky]

I meant if you end up hitting the stage it's impossible to recover, as hitstun is increased when you bounce off of a stage iirc. However if you tech the stage you should be able to survive yes. But again, if you don't tech you will die at 0 without a chance to recover at all because the way stage spiking works with momentum and hitstun.

And yes ganon's u-tilt should be destroying arrows. i have no idea why it doesn't already lol. We'll probably look into that in the future if other devs agree

 

[justadood]

DIDDY IDEAS:

Spoiler: BE WARNED: HEAVILY INSPIRED BY DK64

side tilt - change to the tail attack from DK 64.. make it two presses, fist does the tail forehand and back (two hits), second press does the forehand spin (one refreshing hit with higher knockback)...
side smash - the chimpy charge from DK 64.. the charge time could look similar to the wind up for wario's side smash, then when released, he charges (a little farther than wario), and stops at his opponent, knocking them at a near horizontal angle
neutral B - different peanut popgun either make it aim only horizontally and still travel kind of slowly, while charging only speeds up the peanut and boosts its power; or make them able to charge faster so you can actually shoot them out faster, and make them able to release two peanuts at a time, or make them shoot out faster... ... ...also, either way, you should be able to be tilting forward B to use this on the ground, in a similar way to kirby, so on the ground, only smash B will go into the monkey flip, and MAYBE make diddy able to walk while charging the gun (just slow walk)...
up smash - the tail bounce from DK 64.. the longer this is charged, the higher it goes, and once released, he will travel about the height of his medium-charged up B hitting foes with him.. at mid height, it becomes cancellable into air attacks...
new taunt (not sure which) AND ALT FS - diddy's guitar.. in this taunt, he just pulls out his guitar and strums three notes.. however, if you have the final smash, and you interrupt this taunt with B, it will go into the guitar solo from DK 64.. with this "alt FS', diddy will strum faster and faster, depending on how fast you tap A, causing the star shaped diddy logo (with a hitbox) coming from the guitar to get bigger and bigger, but always with a fixed duration.. also, slowing down will cause it to slow the strums and get smaller... this solo lasts about 2/3 the duration of DK's bongo solo, and gets to about the same size at max "charge"...