New Buff ideas

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
1. - If Ganon uses the side+b aerial cancel (the explosion), he gets his jump back, same as with down+b - while I love dragging someone way below FD and exploding up, trying to trap them, it's possible to gimp yourself if you explode too low (and just in general) - getting the jump back makes this less risky and more fun, but doesn't do a whole lot to break him.
2. - Meta Knight's dair gets a little KB boost and loses a percent or two to be a better gimping tool - it feels really weak right now.
3. - [someone said this was in already but if it's not] ZSS whip is vBrawl if tapping B, holding it makes it the spot where the whip sucks someone in (or vice versa)
4. - Sonic gets a KO move (sort of kidding - but seriously, faster fsmash please)
5. - DK's bair gets his foot invincible (okay this would be just silly, but I'm sure the DKs here would love it)
6. - Meta Knight's dtilt or dsmash is no longer transcendent priority.
7. - Ganondorf's utilt actually clears away TL's arrows, since it's supposed to clear traps (according to one older changelog) but doesn't touch the arrows at all.
8. - Captain Falcon's raptor boost clanks out TL arrows OR it can go through them OR Falcon Kick will always clank out an arrow and stop him (seriously, dealing with 4 arrows on FD because of a respawn is SO ANNOYING!) [sorry I have issues with TL arrows when not given a fast projectile or reflector or Falco lasers...]
9. - Link fsmash second hit gets a knockback scaling boost and ftilt1 and ftilt2 lose some (why does the tilt KO faster than the new smash... when the smash has charge?)
10. - Ivysaur's ivycopter now gets a reflector on it but has much less range on the attack - but it also is restored every time one is hit and has massive cancelability frames throughout (can be cancelled by non-B moves) so that instead of being a one-time charge, it makes her recovery a little more manageable but also much better if she's hit out after using the copter or hit out of start-up.
11. - Squirtle's aerial down+b has more knockback and such (always felt rather weak to me...)
12. - Dedede can throw more gordos (doubled odds?), in exchange for a slight damage nerf (so they only do like 18-20%, but you can find them much easier for those KOs around 130%).
13. - Ganondorf's side taunt, if completed without interruption, makes his next non-Gandouken Warlock Punch have zero endlag frames (I think I just opened Pandora's Box, but this might make some peole happy without making others annoyed...)
14. - Ike can store Eruption, but it doesn't trigger NS mode (he gives up NS mode until he gets rid of the charge?)...something like this... I really liked storing that (this might also violate the rule - if so, oops).

Shortened a bit so I can reply on what I'm almost certain will never happen. Though I'm not like... confirming it won't happen. Just that I would never do it. Also, I put numbers in that quote to make it easier to see what I'm replying to.

1- This would pretty much be saying, if Ganondorf catches you in the situation of aerial flame choke that you'll always die. Let's not forget that he could flame choke you again and again if you both have jumps back.

2- I don't see an issue with that, I heard MK gimps extremely well already though.

3- it was in there last i checked

4- Sonic's Nair is now much better, and his back throw kills as well. Also, I don't know if you've tried using his spindash jump but that hits hard. I sped up much of his moveset last update, does his Fsmash really need speed?

5- DK feels unstoppable enough as is.

6- Let's let him keep just a few MK traits from Vbrawl. Otherwise people will complain that Minus is nothing but nerfs now.

7- This should happen. It's probably some kind of special collision that only hits enemies.

8- and I say nooooo. Falcon is one of the most annoyingly fast and precise characters to fight. If you mess up against him and he gets in, you're done. He's pretty much a tall combo with strong finishers.

9- I don't mind buffing Link's Fsmash. As a matter of fact, I buffed his Ftilt for the purpose of giving him a good horizontal kill on the ground. His side smash is actually not supposed to be used to KO all the time. It has a much higher angle which can combo well into aerial up B or hard gale boomerang depending on how your opponent DIs. Pretty much, JS is a setup move.

10- Nope. I was the driving force behind most of Ivy's nerfs. She was far too strong to be the middle hitting Pokemon. Now her spacing is rewarded by her staying safe, not by quick kills. I feel like recovery is STILL her only downside and it's barely a real one.

11- I'll see when that's KOing. Most moves I try to balance by taking range, safety, speed, and power into account. That move is very safe for squirtle, has good range too. It's something to consider though.

12- that takes away from the surprise and reward of pulling a Gordo and KOing.

13- I've been wanting to do something with Ganon's taunt as well actually.

14- I really hate messing with Ike. NS mode is such a pain and has had bugs upon bugs. I'm hoping I've squashed all of them so far. Though I know flourish is still really wonky...
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Kienamaru said:
1- This would pretty much be saying, if Ganondorf catches you in the situation of aerial flame choke that you'll always die. Let's not forget that he could flame choke you again and again if you both have jumps back.

1. I sorta dropped this idea earlier...
2. No, it's called DI, an airdodge, and outprioritizing the attack - this combination of things prevents the repeatedly flame choke from happening, if this were implemented. If you're bad you'll just get regrabbed to hell, but a good player would never be regrabbed repeatedly.

Kienamaru said:
6- Let's let him keep just a few MK traits from Vbrawl. Otherwise people will complain that Minus is nothing but nerfs now.

No that's a buff - he's got a really tough time taking out arrows on the ground (drill rush them? ew). This would let him clear arrows easier versus TL, and I don't see how it would nerf him...

Kienamaru said:
8- and I say nooooo. Falcon is one of the most annoyingly fast and precise characters to fight. If you mess up against him and he gets in, you're done. He's pretty much a tall combo with strong finishers.

The raptor boost ideas were silly, but if I'm not mistaken, Falcon Kick will clank with ice arrows but not fire (sometimes goes over, sometimes hits) and light (just gets hit), which is odd to me. I'd like to see it standardized... and if a TL sets up two on either side of him on the center of FD, you're toast - boomerang and bombs to poke while I'm pretty sure nair outranges Falcon, and he can stay ground-borne and usmash or utilt or whatever. It's almost as bad as Falco Ike on FD if Falco's already got like 4 lasers out. You *can* dtilt arrows but that's just begging to get boomeranged or bombed and then he can put another one out easily - Falcon Kick hitting all arrows just makes his life ever so slightly better. If you'd like to not let it clank though, fine.

Kienamaru said:
9- I don't mind buffing Link's Fsmash. As a matter of fact, I buffed his Ftilt for the purpose of giving him a good horizontal kill on the ground. His side smash is actually not supposed to be used to KO all the time. It has a much higher angle which can combo well into aerial up B or hard gale boomerang depending on how your opponent DIs. Pretty much, JS is a setup move.

This is good to know. Thanks.

Kienamaru said:
10- Nope. I was the driving force behind most of Ivy's nerfs. She was far too strong to be the middle hitting Pokemon. Now her spacing is rewarded by her staying safe, not by quick kills. I feel like recovery is STILL her only downside and it's barely a real one.

Fair enough - the reflector on Ivycopter might be bad, but she's nigh-impossible to hit out of Ivycopter without a projectile as it stands (and it must be transcendent to hit her) - I wanted to see someone like Captain Falcon be able to actually dair her out of her recovery. But if we'd prefer to just make Ivycopter nigh-impossible to gimp for some while letting others have the tools to stop it (sort of), that's fine.

Not much to say on the other points so not quoting them - someone pointed out that Squirtle's down+b is really strong point-blank, I'd just like to see some more power at the tip of it. Gordos seem to come out a lot when I'm not playing Dedede (for like everyone else, while I'll go like 20 throws with 1 or 0 gordos) so I think that's a fair point. NS mode being hard to deal with? I'm okay then with just leaving it for a while. My Sonic ideas were off a slightly older build actually, his fsmash maybe wouldn't probably need a speed buff for now and the other stuff is nicer too. MK dair just feels like it doesn't gimp well, but I'll mess around with it more - it just often feels like I'm not gimping until like ~100% or so, at which point drill rush or nado->nair offstage is probably just as effective - it admittedly can set up gimps with shuttle loop better than I first gave it credit for though.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Squirtle's has a weak spot at far range because it's just that; far range. He can hit with it fairly safely, so why make it safe AND strong?
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
I don't want it strong, but like... I feel like it should at least actually look like it sends someone down... like, it seems a lot weaker than Falco late dair... I just want something rather small, like maybe a 3-5 point boost to base knockback, not some huge damage increase or large knockback scaling boost or whatever.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Ah. I wouldn't mind that. It's super quick to do too. You know how to PSA?
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Projectiles are a natural weakness he suffers from, so my first instinct is to say no. He can actually deal with many projectiles fairs, nairs, and with counter, though counter is not ideal. Granted reflective properties on fsmash probably aren't abusable.

But I guess it's impossible anyway, since Ike can't normaly reflect. Not anyone can be given reflective properties unless they already possess them, which Ike doesn't.
 

Bashdemears

Jiggs2stronk
Everyone that has a counter should be able to jump cancel or cancel into the attack of their choice

Also JC on marios cape, marth and roy's side B.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Everyone that has a counter should be able to jump cancel or cancel into the attack of their choice

Also JC on marios cape, marth and roy's side B.

I don't like the latter half of the counter idea - I don't want Ike's counter to be cancellable into fsmash. MAYBE the JC but not that other part. That would be downright silly.

Mario's cape doesn't need a JC? I wish Marth's neutral b had a Dolphin Slash cancel on it to improve his recovery when he's in those really awkward positions, but that's me.

Wouldn't mind a JC on Roy's side+B - would help his combo game but I doubt it would break him.

You mean break Ike beyond redemption?

Give Ike fsmash super armor throughout the duration [starting on frame 10 or something]. However, 3 [or 4]X endlag and Ike takes 1.5 [or double] damage from any attacks he is hit with during the duration of his fsmash armor.

Would be awesome to beat out moves for KOs [ROB side+B? EAT THIS!!! Warlock Punch!!! I'M AT 999% BUT YOU'RE THE DEAD ONE!!!] but rather balanced if you avoid it since you get one heck of a punish on the move - ultimate risk-reward (or just grab him with that added endlag). Probably wouldn't need added startup, but that's my opinion if Greatest_Aether wants armor that much.

But yeah, if there's not some obvious drawback, no armor on that, it would be silly.
 

Bashdemears

Jiggs2stronk
Minus is to be broken but balanced in context. Pretty much every minus character would whoop the crap out of their PM, Melee, brawl, and 64 counterparts.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
It's hard where you draw the line between broken and OP. Having counters that don't have any commitment is stupid since you are then encouraged to spam counter instead of reading your opponents plays. That would be pretty toxic to gameplay.

Ike doesn't need armor on fsmash. They've already sped the move up from vbrawl and made it stronger. The NS version even gets a heat wave.

Marth is a very complete character but perhaps Roy could use a JC for his grounded sideb but I'm not sure.
 

Greatest_Aether

Forum Reg of sorts
OK then, how about making Ness' PK Thunder 1 be able to cancel into another one eariler in the air? He isn't gimped as hard as vbrawl but it still might be hard to recover if someone is hit by it before it hits you.
 

Bashdemears

Jiggs2stronk
I seriously think ness and lucas are underated both of them can multishine into combos like its nothing.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Lucas' shine isn't a combo tool though. It's more of a combo finisher but I'm just being technical.

But yeah, they are both underrated IMO.

I actually wouldn't be against that aether.
 

Greatest_Aether

Forum Reg of sorts
The pun or the suggestion?
If it's the suggestion, that would be awesome. I can't tell you how many times my group gimped me because of that.
If it's the pun...
I know, I have to step it up with my jokes. So prepare yourself. And if you don't like it, you'll get no sympathy from me.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I mean allowing ness the opportunity to upb again. Lucas can do it again when he collides into and bounces off the stage and I think ness also needs a buff.
 

DubLTeamz

Master of Arbitrary Opnions
Does it not already do that? I've seen the CPU start another PK Thunder after hitting the first into a wall, like three times in a row. (Got stuck on Fourside)
I thought it worked the same for hitting players to, if not it should.
 

Darxmarx

The Learning Star Warrior
It does do that. Greatest Aether just suggested that he could pull another PK Thunder earlier than the current speed.
...Well, unless I read what he said wrong, which I do a lot apparently.
 

Greatest_Aether

Forum Reg of sorts
No, you read that right. DubLTeamz did remind me of something though. When using PK Thunder right next to a wall, the wall hits the Thunder and makes it disappear. Maybe make the PK Thunder smaller or something?
 
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Thor

Well-Known Member
It's hard where you draw the line between broken and OP. Having counters that don't have any commitment is stupid since you are then encouraged to spam counter instead of reading your opponents plays. That would be pretty toxic to gameplay.

Ike doesn't need armor on fsmash. They've already sped the move up from vbrawl and made it stronger. The NS version even gets a heat wave.

Marth is a very complete character but perhaps Roy could use a JC for his grounded sideb but I'm not sure.

The JC is only when they hit the counter I thought? I meant that IF they hit you with a move, you could JC it into nair or something to start combos instead of just one firey swing - sort of like a counteroffensive, not just a counter attack. JCing the animation entirely would be toxic indeed.

Marth suiciding because you can't use neutral+B or you go to far and you can't use up+B because you don't go far enough is very annoying - that's why I want a Dolphin Slash cancel on the aerial one.

Roy's grounded side+B doesn't need one? It's already got a pseudo-counter-cancel on hit1.
 
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