Meta knight!

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I was thinking that even though I like his moveset now, meta knight feels a little less awesome to me now. This is mostly because I regarded his old upsmash and jab as one of my very favorite attacks because they looked AWESOME! So I want suggest a couple ways that each could return/reapplied.

Personally, I don't like his new upsmash. I like how it functions though, so I'm not gonna say let's revert though. His old upsmash could return in a much cooler way! As is, his current Uair is only useful for chaining into itself at low percents. It doesn't do anything else except have decent range, but it's very weak. So I was thinking that you could trigger an aerial upsmash by doing the same thing as Ike's helicopter Uair. The attack would send him up a SMALL distance, possibly with endlag to prevent this move from being used as a 5th recovery. The idea is that this move could either add a little more kill power to his Uair or be a move that auto links three times since his Uair hits only once usually. Ideally, I'd like to see no hitlag here to make the move look awesome, but if you guys think that they should DI in the move, then put hitlag I guess. Maybe limit the number of times it can be used in the air.

Alternatively, this move could have the same input as I described, but only work when he jums off the ground. Basically, like when Ike uses helisword from the ground. This would literally be an alt upsmash that kills instead of combing when the foes is at really high percents. This move would use the special fall animation as endlag.

Now for his jab, I'm less sure about this one. I think that this move should turn into an aoe attack with a refreshing hitbox that gets weaker over time. The move would only hit ONCE even though he swings a ton of times. This emphasizes how fast he swings that sword, visually hitting 5 or 6 times instantly. This move could also break or deflect all weak preojectiles(when a sheild sends a projectile up or down at an angle instead of back at the foe) and again look awesome! Before you say that this move will be abused on the edge, i suggest that this move is only triggered by pressing A anytime after MK says fight me in his taunt, but maybe before he swings his sword the second time, to limit him a little. This moves endlag would be the end of the taunt after it is used, but extended or shortened to give the foe time to punish him on whiff.

Thoughts?
 

13131

Well-Known Member
no one has ever loved meta knight.. unless they're playing vbrawl for money.

i like the new jab. i've found it pretty useful.
uair buffs might be dangerous..

hmm

the old upsmash was definitely cooler... and i think his forward throw should lose the beam sword. that's about it.

removing the helpless state after specials was enough to qualify metaknight for minus.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
I really liked Meta Knight - then I saw he was good, hated by many, and watched some Youtube matches. I still love him, but it sucks I can't really say that without being looked down on (note that in vBrawl I main Pikachu with sort of a Falco backup, and I'm looking into Marth, as well as TL or ZSS to deal with ICs).

I don't like either idea much, and think he's fine as is, but the jab thing might be an interesting bonus taunt.

I think something cooler would be the ability to dimensional cape cancel charging fsmash, but the attack is disabled (if you hit the cstick, the animation might be the same but there is no hitbbox there...).

I'd like to see dair do 2%, but I get it's a gimping tool and a wait to nerf dair camping. If uair only does 1% I'd like at least 2% on there (I think it currently does 2% - I'd love 3 or even 4% but even I think 4% is a lot and I get uair is really good so many people would probably find 3% way too much).

If the point of uthrow is trading stocks, the knockback (at least on MK) needs to be way higher - I've faced a couple people where I die first, but uthrow them at like 0% and get the KO and a 45% deficit, which isn't all that bad when two Galactic Crushers from Bowser do that much if I misspace anything. That said, I don't WANT this change, but if it's a stock-trader/kamikaze, it's currently instead a good way for MK to get 45% on both players at the start, and MK doesn't have the easiest time racking damage (like, he's good at getting lot of hits, but you have to combo them for at least like 17 straight seconds which isn't exactly easy... )
 

13131

Well-Known Member
that was a joke. i liked him too, and did well with him.. then i realized how huge his advantage was in that game.

so i took up diddy kong and olimar... and people still hated my characters, but for different reasons.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
Look forward to some changes in the next version! Metaknight is being looked at as we speak actually.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I hope he's been reworked in a more balanced manner in the update. As is, he's a mixed feel of still being too strong, and yet feels so weak. He racks up damage quickly, yet slowly at the same time. He also continues to gimp everyone incredibly easily. I can score kills with his dair as early as 20% as long as I get the opponent off the stage. And does he really need to have so many forms of recovery? Why not rework one or two of his specials to be more for damage or kill power, rather than extra recovery?
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
His down special does both. And I don't think all of his special moves in the air are op for recovery. MK doesn't have good vertical recovery. His jumps are also more useless now if used to recover.

I also don't really love his playstyle. Your goal is basically to smack them around untill you can get a dair in there. Not very fun and you need to work hard for it.

I still like him though, but he isn't as cool without his old attacks.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
He just doesn't fit right to me. And his recovery being op or not isn't my complaint. It's how many he has. As weak as his jumps are now, each of his specials are a recovery, something every other character wishes they had. Why keep all four of them with a recovery function when you can rework some of them to be something better? Then he could have his normal jumps back or something. His offstage presence is still lethal, as he only needs to land 2 dairs to knock virtually everyone out of range of recovery.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I think you overestimate them. All of them are situational except his down b, which can be used anywhere and in any situation. Without his down b, he practically can't recover. Shuttle loop is good, but if it misses the ledge, it's really bad. The rest don't give him much vertical height.
 

Glyph

Moderator
I must be thinking of a different MK than you are NEWB because all of his B moves give him a ton of mobility, both horizontal and vertical. In fact I'd say his down-b is one of the shorter ones for recovery, if not the shortest. I know for sure it pales in sheer distance to side-b and up-b, and I THINK tornado goes further too.

So yeah, I guess they're situational so long as the situation is 'I need to recover'.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
His down-b is the most versatile of the all his recovery options. Any direction, low startup, not very vulnerable, not easy to see where he is going to recover, whether it be sweetspotting the edge or recovery on stage, and its length can be distributed between vertical or horizontal as you see fit. it can also be canceled into ANY aerial for added safety. His other recovery moves (while GREAT still) aren't as good as down-b. He has alot of recovery, that is true, but he's vulnerable after using most of them on stage. alot of characters in Minus have insane recovery, why would Metaknight having so much be a problem? just don't try to kill him from gimping. you don't ever wanna be offstage with him anyways, thats where he is strongest (currently).

He's also very voulnerable from beneath him against high priority anti airs, since d-air (well being INSANE) doesn't beat out a ton of moves. The priority isn't the same as it was in previous versions, ALOT of MK's priority moves got nerfs in earlier versions. such as Mach tornado. So, MK's recovery options are GREAT but situational, since you shouldn't be running offstage trying to gimp him anyways unless you want to risk getting gimped yourself, since it's likely that MK is gonna do gimping better then most every char. Your best bets are ceiling kills and strong side screen kills. I wouldn't capitalize on trying to be offstage with him. Maintain a strong stage presence and control of center stage instead.

Glyph said:
if not the shortest. I know for sure it pales in sheer distance to side-b and up-b, and I THINK tornado goes further too.

Shortest yea, but easiest to sweetspot the ledge with, giving you Iframes that plays well into what MK does really well, controlling the ledge. Side-b recovery is his longest range recovery aside from gliding out of shuttle loop, but if your trying to sweetspot the ledge from below with it, your open to be spiked on the travel depending on the distance. (if you wanna risk that).

Though i think this was about his recovery being OP? r-right? if thats the case, i don't really agree only because alot characters in minus have INSANE recovey too (sonic, Lucario, Wario, fox. to name a few)

but thats just my opinion, discuss away!
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
They all have great range, and don't forget that he can use all of them due to the removal of his special fall state. He can recover from anywhere he wants anytime be wants as long as he has at least two jumps and all 4 recoveries available.

It's not just his recovery, Husky. It's just that he feels kinda weak. I'm only throwing out the idea of changing maybe one or two of his specials to be more utility than recovery, if that makes sense. Like if Mach tornado multi-hit and actually landed every hit, but either was an immobile move, or had little horizontal control.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I agree with husky 100%. He said what I was trying to get at. As someone who plays MK, I can tell you that odds are, he is most certainly not going to have two jumps and he will have already used atleast one special. Only his upb will refresh after getting hit.

IMO, power needs to be given to his other attacks instead of his specials. Tools are far more valuable than power. That's why MK does alright, since he clearly lacks power.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
...I don't know why people are saying his recoveries are bad/mediocre... his Shuttle Loop lets you glide, so you can easily Drill Rush for height, cape straight up and then shuttle loop, then nado back for protection... his recovery is the best in the game (Jigglypuff's comes close [and wins if your opponent is silly enough to get footstooled, since she has rollout which is as good as glide if not better], Pikachu's does with a jump, but not in both directions, Falco's FireBird is awesome and he has 3 jumps but it's still not as good (and he plummets after Phantasm), Snake can blow himself up I guess, I don't know much about ROB's except it's pretty long (but you can airdodge during it), I don't think anyone else is even reallly worth mentioning in a discussion of best recovery).

MK is also not really vulnerable after using any of them - he can fall out of SL almost immediately, Nado is cancellable into uairs or nair or whatever to remove lag, Drill Rush arguably is but you can still use an aerial straight out of it, and the cape's been covered.

Unless someone wants to show me some footage of MK getting beat back hard, his recovery is the best in game, especially if [for all characters compared] you've been hit back two or three times without a ledgegrab (I had failed to realize Nado no longer beats Waddle Dees in my match against Fe, though I think I started to fix that throughout that match that's on Youtube).

And unless it was changed from vBrawl, Drill Rush gives the most vertical height. If you don't believe that, you're doing it wrong. Also nado gives respectable height if you mash fast enough (can recover from near the bottom of FD onstage, if it's like vBrawl nado).

Unless a change that sounds icky (only upspecial refresh) is being proposed, all 4 refresh...
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Only up special DOES refresh. Last I checked.

I'm not sure if you have checked the moves recently, but side b doesn't give more vert height than down b, as Sammi said. This also only works well as a recovery if the ledge is within range.

Nado does give okay height, but it can't really grab the ledge at all and it tends to bounce against the stage, making it more difficult. MK aerials have poor range and low priority, so they really don't help.

Down b has been discussed. It's his best and ideal recovery method.

Shuttle loop is only good if used above or directly below the ledge. If he has been semispiked away from the stage, shuttle loop is useless because he is then close to the low blastline and can't glide at all for vert height.

His jumps are also terrible because they grant him little distance at all.

Replays shouldn't be necessary. You can see this for yourself.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Someone want to tell me when Drill Rush was nerfed/changed from vBrawl? It's been tested and rested by M2K and others dedicated to MK - in Brawl it goes the highest of all MK's recovery moves when used. This may be a byproduct of attacking out of the end of it removing the upward boost MK gets at the end, in which case the solution is simple - to maximize your height, don't attack, then it goes higher than down+b.

If all 4 specials are not refreshing after being hit you have a problem - they should all refresh at once when hit, and as seen in the video of me (Thor) vs Fe, I drill rush twice without touching the ground once (go to about 4:20 and watch the next 15 seconds to see this occur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JBRYFyyi-Q).

If they're not refreshing, you have an error (similarly, Jigglypuff's rest in my copy heals 30% on hit - last I checked the changelog said it should heal 10% on contact - this is an error or I didn't know it was changed.) Also, the point of MK's aerials isn't to protect yourself by dealing damage, it's that landing with an aerial means you have practically zero lag... also just attack out of nado near ledges and use any recovery special or a jump - you should start using specials well before you use up all your jumps for recovery.

And his jump height is fine - it's not that large, but he gets like 5 and 4 recovery specials.

You should get online and play my MK - his recovery is the best in the game (I'll state I think it's better than Jiggs and my honorable mention is Falco (Fox/Pikachu/ROB horizontally up high), but nobody can recover as well as MK in pretty much any situation.)

And my replay shouldn't be necessary. You can see this for yourself.
 

Tybis

Resident Minusaur
Minus Backroom
I'm not sure if MK has good "recovery" as much as he has so many amazing aerial options. He can combo you offstage, chase you to the edge of the screen, then if he wants to, smack you back to the stage and still be putting out pressure. He really is king of the air. For straight up recovery though, Lucario's comes to mind as being both very quick and very long. MK on the other hand has limited means of diagonal movement, so it'll take him longer to recover from the lower corners of the offstage. It's still really good as recovery, but I wouldn't' say it's the be-all-end-all (but it's close).
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
That is a better way of putting it. I don't have my wii right now, so I can't really look into this right now.

I can say from experience though, that it really isn't all that easy to recover with him at times. If you use the wrong special, you could wind up killing yourself. It really isn't the best in the game, but if used right, it is really good. There really isn't a problem much with it though.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Well, it's hard to SD with him using the wrong special unless you Drill-Rush the wrong way... Mach Tornado+ button mashing = net increase in altitude, and SL and Dimensional Cape both easily go up, so there shouldn't be SDs unless you use a special and someone knocks you out (Ex: you drill rush into a Falcon Punch) which is a problem every character has and not a reason his is not great (can't use any other move at the wrong time or you'll be knocked out of it). Admittedly, his recovery takes some practice, or vBrawl experience using each move, to know when and how to use them - the lack of linearity actually adds to the initial difficulty curve a little, because people might freeze up or whatever (though the payoff is much higher).

And Tybis, Lucario's is pretty long range, but MK's still nets just as long, if not longer - you just have to take some extra time moving using his full array of options - also Lucario's is not long unless you use the dair momentum boost, but at that point Lucario can just be knocked out of it with good timing (no hitboxes there) so it's not as safe as a lot of MK's options (Drill Rush you have an amiable hitbox in front of you, piercing nado is no small task, we've covered the cape, and SL cancels super soon and has hitboxes on the way up so that you have to jump to meet where his glide starts, but you can buffer cancel -> nair/dair to make that extremely difficult). I still think it's the best in the game, especially if you've been hit back a few times (Jiggs starts to run out of jumps and that's bad for her, Lucario's is good but I think MK's is just better, given he gets numerous options while Lucario can be swatted with the right disjoint and/or hitbox duration, Falco's is awesome but still not there, ROB runs out of gas, etc...). At the very least he's top 5 and I'd say no lower than top 3.

I've also neglected he can glide w/out shuttle loop, which is another asset he has.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Well gliding is neglect able mostly. It's decent at recovery if he is above the stage, but he has a very predictable flight pattern and all projectiles will force him to cancel it. He also needs a jump to glide anytime or shuttle loop. Gliding is also not ideal in certain situations.

So were you saying that if he is buffed then his recovery should be lessened or that it should be lessened regardless? As is, your the only one with an issue for his recovery, while people are okay with it generally. I'm the only one trying to back what I say, so I'm not sure if other people see an issue, but I'd like others to speak up and back what they say.

Keep in mind that MK really isn't unpunishable. It's still easy to hit him out of his specials, even if you get hit too.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
No, I like that his recovery is (from other's perspective, arguably) the best in the game. This came about because some people were saying his recovery wasn't that great. I think his recovery is the best in the game, and it should stay that way (or second best - I don't know if I think Jigg's recovery is better or not - I know for sure that if you're knocked away from the stage 3 or 4 times MK's recovery is better than Jiggs unless one is a Rising Pound guru).

I take issue with others saying MK's recovery is not that good. I have no issue with his current recovery (a buff would be silly, but nerfing it is unneeded, especially since I think he has a 30 frame meteor cancel delay, which is pretty bad - and if his meteor cancel window is better than that, good).

So we're all in agreement here that MK's recovery is fine as is. Trying to think of how to fix his damage output without making him far better than the rest of the cast.

Also, since you've posted here like 3 times today, are you able to play online? I'd love to get some matches in...
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
In no way was i saying his recovery was bad, if you re-read through what i posted i said it was great multiple times. but in terms of overall usefulness in battle (recovery, utility, aerial options, predictability) i disagree that his is the best in the game. But that's just my opinion and doesn't matter whatsoever. If i was only taking into consideration purely recovering back to the stage to survive, his would be 1st or second, but that wasn't what i was basing off of.

Tybis said:
For straight up recovery though, Lucario's comes to mind as being both very quick and very long. MK on the other hand has limited means of diagonal movement, so it'll take him longer to recover from the lower corners of the offstage.

This is exactly what meant. Lucario can also use his recovery each time he gets hit. So can MK, but Lucario's is fast enough that your likely not to get hit again because either your OUT of there, or your extreme speed hits them
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Hopefully then we can play next weekend? I may have to tell the people I won't be attending that Melee tournament I signed up for (although I got a spot before it filled up and they have a waiting list so they won't care), but Brawl- is worth it (now if they had Brawl this upcoming weekend, I might have to limit Brawl- time to mostly Sunday, but that's not the case).

So... Lucario recovery > MK? Maybe... not in terms of sheer distance, but I see your point... I think in a 2v1 MK's is still better because he doesn't care about them covering the ledge and onstage, forcing Lucario high. MK'll just go right through them. I see your point though. Lucario also has Counter -> wall cling for both protection and coolness, so I'd say his recovery is top 5 too. We still need to fix the damage vs knockback thing... oh wait 3.3 is coming out soon... can hope for a less... unique MK then (honestly I feel like MK's best opening strat is upthrow because 45% for MK is kind of a big deal).
 
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