L canceling anyone?

[Bashdemears]

Anyone else dying to have L-cancel in minus?

 

[Bent 00]

No. Why would anyone want L-Cancelling back?

 

[CaptainEllipsis]

I like L-cancelling, but no one really had enough landlag on their attacks to really need it.

 

[Bent 00]

L-Cancelling just raises the skill ceiling unnecessarily, if you ask me. A player's focus should be spent on more important things.

I never liked wavedashing, either.

 

[Bashdemears]

Wave dashing has its pros but on alot of characters it was nigh useless. Like Ganon in melee.

The three "fake" WDs (marth, peach, rob) in minus are what wave dashing should always be: Traveling a good distance while still being able to do whatever. Wolfs WD I find to be lol worthy. Then again, im not too good with him.

I just want to know how hard would it be to put it in? Is it even worth trying?

 

[Tybis]

If you want it in your own personal setup, then PhantomWings does everything.

Personally, I don't see the point of the L-Cancel mechanic. I just see it as an extra button you need to press arbitrarily (you never want more lag). At that point, you're fighting the game instead of fighting the player. But that's just me.

I never liked wavedashing, either.

I'm guessing you don't like Fox, eh?

 

[Thor]

No. Moves already have stupidly low endlag (Marth fair anyone?) and trying to punish in Minus is obnoxious as is. Letting people cut Link's dair lag in half (or to no landing lag like Smash 64) is just silly in my opinion.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I hate L-Cancelling, as it was the only thing keeping me from being good at Melee or even bothering with PM. Why should I have to worry so much about an extra button press instead of worrying about the match I'm in? I shouldn't have to master something so tedious just so I can play the game at a "normal" level.

 

[NEWB]

I thought id have to weigh in here, but it guess I don't lol.

Thunda has made a point about l canceling. He said that fighting games are fun when they are interesting, that is, there are many options one can do that have pros and cons and work in a variety if ways. He said that since there is no time you wouldn't want to l cancel, then it isn't an interesting or fun mechanic. I agree with him and what you guys say here.

I'd like to know why people support it too btw. I can't understand why, but melee people like it.

 

[Other Aether]

melee people like it.

It feels good to them to flaunt their tech skill and destroy newcomers who aren't as good as them. I've got pretty good reflexes, but complex sequences of button inputs like waveshines and stuff always trouble me. I agree with everything said above, and don't like l-cancelling.

 

[Pin Clock]

People usually support it due to "oh less lag if I do this, sounds cool", but the two main reasons Minus won't have L-Cancelling have already been stated:
1. Characters in Minus have insanely low landlag to the point where you could just call it "auto-l cancelling", and reducing it anymore might as well make it non-existent.
2. It does not add any layers of depth to the game, due to there being no situation where you wouldn't want to cancel or actually want to have extra landing lag. Therefore, it's "HEY REMEMBER TO PRESS THIS AT THIS TIME OR YOU'LL BE LEFT MUCH MORE VULNERABLE FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN I SAID SO"

I will toss in a fun fact that several P:M devs have been reported to having admitted that L-Cancelling is bad game design, but can't take it out due to it being so ingrained into competitive Melee.

 

[NEWB]

I don't like that this thread is becoming that kind of thread but.....

Why do most melee players seem so think headed? The melee players in my club at the very least scoff at what minus does. Even other ones that I meet outside my club. All the talk you here about smash 4 is the closer to melee it is, the better. While that is partly true, when the f*** did smash get put on the melee standard? Melee wasn't even the greatest game. It's horribly imbalanced. Is it really true that it's supposed to be more balanced then brawl?

 

[Gold_TSG]

Brawl was a sequel to Melee where silly things like L-canceling and wavedashing were removed. As such, because the creator of the game removed them, they are toxic to overall game experience. Melee-eliteists were just butthurt that something they spent so much time mastering was removed.

 

[Bent 00]

I'm guessing you don't like Fox, eh?

Not really. I think it's a bit odd that he alone was made to be much like his Melee self, while everyone else remained Brawl-style. Is the wavedash so ingrained into his kit that he'd be bad without it?

In short, Fox feels like there's a piece of Melee / Project M stuck in Minus. I don't have a problem with it, but it's weird. It's as if he's the way he is so Melee / Project M players will have a familiar character to play Minus as.

I think Fox could be more unique and Brawl-styled in Minus, but then again, I rarely ever play as him.

 

[NEWB]

I kinda find that hard to believe. How else can fox really play? He can't play any different unless he gets new attacks. He does feel different then everyone else, but that's good! It makes him unique relative to everyone and he does have plenty more tools that makes a home for him in minus. I'm rather happy at where he is.

 

[Bashdemears]

"Fox is who you pick if you're a melee tourneyfag like m2k or Mango."

Seriously, you need a decent amount of tech skill if you want to pull some nuts combos.

On topic: I thought having the option to preform an L-cancel would be cool. I really like the mechanic but I do agree that it wouldn't add jack squat. I like having options is all.

Kudos to the devs for making wavedashes super easy with marth rob and wolf.

 

[NEWB]

C'mon guys.... I was making an observation. The topic of people clinging to melee is really a sore spot for me, but I don't want this to be a lets bag on melee players thread. Doesn't make us look better.

 

[Smilindeth]

On a similar note to this topic, what about crouch canceling?

Using the 1/3 code out there, have been trying it out, and it does have its ups and downs (gets kinda crazy sometimes though). Get wrecked by a Marth since you aren't letting yourself get out, or survive crazy %s of Ike smashes.

 

[Thor]

All the talk you here about smash 4 is the closer to melee it is, the better

That's true with one thing, and mostly true with another - Tripping and hitstun coding. Tripping (randomly) adds an unremovable layer of luck to the game, and when someone loses off a trip, they literally just lost to the RNG.

The hitstun coding is because of combo love. Removing the hitstun coding error that made hitstun attack and dodge-cancellable a short ways into hitstun will make the game have more combos, which is generally agreed to be a good thing. It does however remove momentum-cancelling (unless the error is reimplemented so that it only applies when you've sustained a certain amount of knockback - this will admittedly place more focus on gimps and KOs near blastlines though, so it seems unlikely).

To discuss other mechanics:

L-cancellers are mad for two reasons: 1) the L-cancelling practice is now useless 2) if they don't autocancel it has more lag - they want the ability to have less lag, but Sakurai doesn't implement it. It does add no cost/benefit analysis to choose to do it or not, but it also made things like Link dair (and Ganondorf) somewhat usable.

Crouch-cancelling made some moves nigh-obsolete and provided strategies that buffed the potency of some characters. If you don't want moves that are nearly useless (Marth dancing blade), need to make CC not useful, or else pick which moves can be bad at low percents, limiting low-percent options. I won't offer my opinion beyond this.

Wavedashers are mad for the same first reason as L-cancellers, and it also means they feel movment is more limited. I prefer the Brawl airdodge (or Minus airdodge) because it makes juggling slightly more tricky and getting onstage a bit easier - it makes the bait and punish game more important. Fox's Brawl Minus airdodge is the best of both worlds, but unlikely.

Edgeguarding is harder in Brawl (not undoable) and flow-chart like in Melee. Take one's pick at to edge mechanics. I like not getting gimped every single time I'm offstage with a space animal, but some like how favored the edgeguarder is.

Some like fast falling speeds. This is literally the only reason (besides hitstun issues leading to fewer combos) Melee is "faster", yet Brawl is by no means slow, as the judgements are arbitrary (and Snoic is faster than CF in Melee I believe). Some think Fox Hyrule 64 is slower than Brawl, others prefer that infinitely to Brawl.

Melee vets say it's more balanced because MK, ICs, Dedede, and Falco (to a lesser extent) [and others to a lesser extent], but Melee has Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, so... and in each, there are only a few who can deal with them all (Snake, ZSS, Diddy, Olimar, Marth, Pikachu, for Melee it's Peach, Jiggs, and ICs sort of... CF/Ganon has Fox/Falco problems, Doc and Pika aren't in the best of spots, Samus can fight spacies...). There's a bias in their statement because they assume having a few even matchups for all is balance, not overall cast viability (you have to remove more characters in Melee than in Brawl to make much of the cast viable - 3 in Brawl, 4 in Melee, in my opinion at least).

I like Fox as is, both for practicing Melee techs (heh) and because I think it's a somewhat sarcastic salute to Melee - I also find his current build rewarding to play as, and he's unique. You also don't even really have to wavedash, given the ability to cancel Fox Illusion at various parts of the attack, but I think it was a good idea on the part of the devs and it feels Minusy, not like PM. Just my opinion though.

 

[Lightning]

Don't forget that wavedashing wasn't intentionally put into Melee. It's actually a goof in the psychics and professional players exploited it. It really shouldn't be classified as a "technique" so to speak. It's a bug. And that bug was fixed in Brawl. It wasn't purposely removed..

And do be quite honest, I still don't know what L-cancelling is.. Never used fancy techniques when I played Melee. I just played it because it was fun.. Isn't that the point of any Smash game?

 

[Bashdemears]

Competitive, intense play is fun.

L-cancel in refers to pressing the L button when an airborne attacking character hits the ground before the attack is finished. This reduces the ending lag on the attack so you have control faster.

Also sakurai discovered wavedashing and intentionally left it in.

 

[NEWB]

Those exploits ruined melee for me. I played the game how it was meant to, so I go out in the real world and suck balls. I know people like it, but I have a hard time complimenting a game that is heavily built on bugs.

 

[Thor]

Don't forget that wavedashing wasn't intentionally put into Melee. It's actually a goof in the psychics and professional players exploited it. It really shouldn't be classified as a "technique" so to speak. It's a bug. And that bug was fixed in Brawl. It wasn't purposely removed..

Not quite. Sakurai noticed it during testing - it's a corner case of the physics where you push certain parameters to the limit. However, it was never intended as a mechanic or technique, because Sakurai never imagined it would become a tool of movement (they never noted how it could be applied). Then they liked the idea of being able to airdodge more than once, which necessitated a change to how airdodges existed, subsequently removing airdodges.

Also sakurai discovered wavedashing and intentionally left it in.

Misdirection - Sakurai never did intend for it to be a primary form of motion for some and important for many - he never foresaw what it would become. He wanted the game to be accessible to all, and Melee having wavedashing sort of shut that down, plus single airdodge he felt was malleable, so the Brawl airdodge game to be. He had just expected it to be a byproduct of a low airdodge (that is, he didn't want to make a new fall state or have to change the engine because of airdodging to the ground, so they left it in).

Competitive, intense play is fun.

I can't tell if you're saying "Being good is fun" or "Melee is fun because it has [mechanics], while Brawl has those elements and so it's not fun." If it's the former, I agree, although some people don't have the time commitment/interest and so just playing with friends is fun, if it's the other one I disagree both because of the arbitrariness of the words "competitive" and "intense" and because I don't think any mechanic in Melee is inherently superior with the exception of no tripping and I suppose hitstun working as intended. I think there are competitive, intense Brawl matches frequently at high level, and also at lower levels, although those matches have more errors, etc.

Also I remembered about dash-dancing - animations were made shorter so people could do attacks almost right away, and because dash-dancing was something Sakurai didn't like (that was also why random tripping was made, apparently). It does mean you can run in circles to bait the opponent - I don't know if that's good or bad.

I will say also that "playing the game how it was meant to played" is a rather arbitrary statement - do you also try to play with items on using Temple or Big Blue as well as the others rather evenly? Or only the random stage select? Or do you pick your favorite stages? Which was intended? How many advanced techniques were intended? In Melee, was jumping out of shine intended for combos? Was Link intended to be able to bomb-jump? If you want to play competitively, you have to play within only the rules specified, and have to use everything you have that's legal to win. If you don't want to be competitive, I'm not sure why you care enough to try.

The game wasn't built on bugs (as described above) - it's built on a corner case (for a few) and a mechanic that WAS intended but is kind of lame design (L-cancelling). Chaingrabs aren't bugs, they're a result of how the game operates, as is a CC (I think it mentions in the instructions that crouching reduces knockback), you don't HAVE to dashdance (and even then, it's just a byproduct of dashing, not a glitch), etc. To say it's built off bugs is a gross misrepresentation of the game.

Or do you freely play Project M because you can play it how it was intended?

EDIT: Oops, CCing does exist in Brawl, but it doesn't reduce knockback, rather hitstun by 33%. As a result, Olimar can CC jab1 of Falco's and powershield jab2 in Brawl, then he can do stuff to Falco - this also makes it even easier to powershield the third hit of Snake/ZSS's jab combo (which can be done without CCing I believe, causing these jab combos to be better off as anti-airs or surprises).

 

[Gold_TSG]

To say a game is more fun at a higher competitive level is highly opinionated, not fact. As good as I am, I don't like being overly competitive, because it ruins the fun for me. Trying to win by any means necessary (such as exploiting bugs or using the cheapest tactics possible) makes me feel like a jackass, and I know it pisses other people off. As such, I go out of my way NOT to be like that so I can have more fun, and so no match is miserably one-sided.

 

[NEWB]

I misspoke earlier. I didn't mean that the game was literally built off bugs. I meant that the meta game is built around wave dashing and l canceling, things that have already been decided to be poor game design. I didn't realize things like momentum canceling were also bugs. Really?