Kien's Custom Minus Build

[Kien]

The moment I've been waiting for... I present, my incomplete but worth playing Minus Custom Build! This build is not even nearly finished. My goal here is to make Minus more fair and more fun. Spammy attacks and ridiculous disjoint is being removed, crazy damage output and easy 0 death combos are being toned down, and the top tiers are receiving some sort of bringing down to earth while the bottom tiers are making their way up to the surface.

Download is finally here...
http://www.mediafire.com/download/3dfqj144rjc5z9g/fighter.zip

First Patch here...
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1novjel7hl1y2ty/first patch.zip
Includes changes to Diddy, Falcon, Kirby, Metaknight, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Samus
Includes fixes to Peach, and Zelda

Second Patch here...
http://www.mediafire.com/download/0vo3xm6ru3dfadc/Second_Patch.zip
Includes changes to Ike, Link, Metaknight, R.O.B., and Samus.
Includes aesthetic changes to Roy and Toon Link
Wifi Code added

Third Patch here...
Includes changes to Bowser, Luigi, and a full rebuild of Lucario.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/d9ef06cu95kbldr/Third+Patch.zip

1. Pull up and open your SD card, Replace the codes folder, go into private, Wii, app, RSBE, and pf. Simply place the fighter folder in the pf folder. DO NOT delete your other folder or you'll remove the animations and whatnot. Simply replace all files it asks of you.

2. Tell me what you think of it.

3. Wait for future patches if you enjoy it. Otherwise offer feedback that might allow you to enjoy it.

Future patches will include:
Different and more unique stages. Hopefully.
Balancing and tweaks to characters.

Character Changelist

Spoiler

Bowser
Dash Attack
Super armor changed to 15% heavy armor. Comes out frame 6 instead of 1.

Side Smash
Charging Super armor changed to 10% heavy armor.
Super armor changed to 15% heavy armor.
Full charge Super armor changed to 20% heavy armor.

Down Smash
Start time reverted to normal though the attack still happens faster than vbrawl due to non startup also being sped up.

Fair
Interrupt delayed 7 frames.

Uair
Heavy armor removed.

Dair
Super armor pushed back to frame 13 when he enters his shell.
=======================================================================================
Captain Falcon
Falcon Punch
Shield damage per hitbox reduced. 75- 15, Final hitbox is unchanged.
Invulnerability changed to super armor.

Raptor Boost
Invulnerability changed to 30% heavy armor.

Falcon Kick
Last hit deals 2% less damage.

Up smash
Removed sdi on first kick of up smash
Removed horribly disjointed hitbox on first kick.

Landing Lag increased
Fair= 8- 14
Bair= 6- 11
Uair= 6- 8
Dair= 8- 12

Side Taunt
Interrupt moved from frame 99- 90
=======================================================================================
Dedede
Dash Attack
Sweetspot toned down 2%

Up tilt
Invincibility removed.
Dmg reduced 2%.

Side Smash
Sweetspot dmg reduced 5%.
Trip hitbox size halved. (100- 50)

Up Smash
Interrupt removed.
=======================================================================================
Diddy Kong
Down Smash
Sweetspot damage on first kick reduced 2%. 6 growth added.
Sourspot damage on second kick increased 5%

Peanut Popgun
Broken offset fixed.
=======================================================================================
Donkey Kong
Side tilt
Hi damage reduced 1%

Down tilt
Interrupt delayed 11 frames

Side Smash
Damage reduced 2%. Sweetspot damage only reduced 1%.

Fair
Impale removed

Bair
Growth reduced by 3.
5 frames of endlag added

Uair. Damage reduced by 1%.

Giant Punch
Super armor changed to 20% Heavy armor that comes out 7 frames later.

Spinning Kong
Super Armor changed to 8% Heavy armor
Intangible state on first 3 frames in air removed.

Ground Slap
Damage reduced 5%. Base KB reduced 10. Size reduced by 4.
=======================================================================================
Falco
Down Smash
Growth increased by 10

Fair
Added interrupt on frame 42 (Edit, moved to 45)
Hitlag reduced from 3- 2.

Bair
Damage increased 1% on first hit.

Fthrow
Combos into aerials.
trajectory 2D- 3D.
BKB 40- 2C

Uthrow
Jump cancel added after lasers come out.

Reflector
Only cancelable if the hitbox connects.
=======================================================================================
Fox
Jab 2
SDI increased to 1.5

Dash Attack
Interrupt delayed 7 frames.

Fair
Damage increased on last hit by 4%.

Uair
Interrupt delayed 4 frames.

Dair
Damage of looping hits decreased 1%. Bkb increased 2.
=======================================================================================
Game & Watch
Judge
Grab and attack cancels removed.

Nair alternate
Damage reduced 2%

Bair
Growth increased on last hit by 10.
=======================================================================================
Ganondorf
Dash Attack
Holding A right before his normal dash attack will cause him to do Gerudo Dragon, his side special from Melee. It deals 6% if both hits connect, works as a ground to air combo starter, and comes out at the same speed as his normal dash attack. Unlike his normal attack, this one has no super armor. Ganon now has the option to play it safe with armor and a potential KO move, or to take a risk for the chance of combo damage.

Utilt- reverted to 3.5

Dsmash- reverted to 3.5

Nair (Sweetspot combo)
Hitboxes adjusted to connect much more reliably.

Warlock Punch (Gandouken)
Made into a powerful wave of dark energy that travels half of FD.

Ranged hitbox 14%. KOs mid FD at 100
Fist deals 32%. KOs mid FD from 57
=======================================================================================
Ice Climbers
Dash Attack
Endlag sped up 1.3x

Side Tilt
Damage increased 1%

Up Tilt
Endlag sped up 1.3x

Side Smash
Endlag sped up 1.2x

Up Smash
Endlag sped up 1.2x

Dair
Growth increased 20

Hammer Squall
Grab cancel changed to Jump Cancel
damage doubled
20 growth added
30 bkb added
Trajectory changed from 30- 60
=======================================================================================
Ike
NS Jab
Damage reduced 1%.
Growth reduced 10
Shield damage increased 2.

Fair Wind
Rehit rate removed. Should fix the instant KO issue.

Dair
Withdrawing hitbox removed.

Razing Eruption
Damage decreased 4%.

Aetherial Blast
Damage decreased 4%.
=======================================================================================
Jigglypuff
Dtilt
12 frames of endlag added (move is sped up by 1.5 so it's more like 9)

S Smash
Sweetspot Damage reduced 1%.
Sweetspot Growth lowered 3

Uair
Trajectory changed from 8- 75.
Growth increased by 7.

Dair
Made into 2.x.6 dair, deals 1% less damage per hit, bkb increased 1.

Side B (grounded)
Always thunderpunches. Sweetspot is still stronger
Bkb increased drastically
SDI reduced on non sweetspot. 1.5- 1

Side B (aerial) same changes but no tweaks to kb
=======================================================================================
Kirby
Weight lowered from 78- 70.

Dash Attack
Normal version hitbox before final one removed. Final hitbox moved ahead to better match the animation.
Burning variant endlag slowed with 0.8 fsm.

U tilt
Bone invulnerability removed.

D tilt
Sliding variant endlag increased. 18- 26

Side Smash
Neutral version FSM normalized.
Low version sped up 1.2x but hits for 2% less. (1% less than neutral)

Up Smash
Ridiculous sweetspot damage taken from 21- 18%.

Nair
2x FSM after last hitbox made into 1.5
Damage normalized at 12.

Bair
Angle changed on sweetspot. 169- 28 (intended to prevent wall of pains)

Uair
Dmg decreased by 2. Growth increased by 6.

Dair
Dmg decreased by 1 (per hit). Bkb increased by 2.

Hammer
Super armor removed.

Inhale
Cancel must now be done before swallowing the opponent

Final Cutter
Projectile now only does a single hit with set kb for 12% instead of two hits totaling 12%.
=======================================================================================
Link
Ending Blow removed. Replaced with Jump Strike.

All Jabs slowed down 1 frame.

Jump Strike
Knockback and damage adjusted. Damage reduced.

Dash Attack
interrupt delayed 3 frames. JS input moved to frame 4 instead of 6.

Side Tilt
Restored to pre Max Side tilt. Given different functions.

Side Tilt Hi
Comes out .2x faster, deals 3% less damage. Has no meteor box. Instead has a box that sends opponent diagonally upward.

Side Tilt Lw
Comes out at Vbrawl speed. Has no meteor box. Instead always sends Sakurai angle. Deals 1% less damage but 6 more shield damage.

Side Smash
pre Max Side smash.

Up Smash
last frame speed modifier decreased from 2x- 1.5x

Fair
Slowed 1 down frame

Uair
Interrupt delayed 6 frames

Pummel
Damage reduced 1%

Bow
Growth on bomb arrows decreased by 5
Frame speed modifier on end reduced by .3
Frame speed modifier on charge increased by .3

Bombs
Frame speed modifier decreased by .2 (1.7 - 1.5)
=======================================================================================
Lucario
Dash Attack
Interrupt delayed 6 frames

Side Tilt
Interrupt delayed 3 frames

Up Tilt
FSM removed.
Interrupt moved ahead 7 frames.

Uair
trajectory on one hitbox changed from 90- 100.
FSM removed. Interrupt removed ahead 2 frames.

Double Team
Jump Cancels replaced with grab cancel and walljump cancel.
=======================================================================================
Lucas
Universal Changes
All normals 3 shield damage added.

Usmash
10 Shield damage added.
Sourspots buffed from 12 and 14 - 15%.

Dsmash
9 Shield damage added.

Fair
Sweetspots buffed to 13% (from 12 and 10)
Sourspots buffed 2%.
Sweetspot stays out 1 frame longer.

Bair
Non semi spikes buffed to 11%. (from 8 and 7)

Bthrow
Growth up 15.
=======================================================================================
Luigi
Thunderhand
Super armor removed.

Luigi Cyclone
Damage on looping hits reduced by 1%.
=======================================================================================
Mario
Dash Attack Hop
Damage reduced 2%. Interrupt delayed 3 frames.

Up Tilt
3 Base kb and 3 kb growth added.

Side Smash
Endlag sped up 1.3x after frame 20

Nair
Sweetspot damage reduced 1%.

Cape
Reflect goes away with the hitbox.

Fireball
Damage increased to 4%.
Firebrand
Super Armor removed. Changes to grounded Firebrand on landing.
=======================================================================================
Marth
Shadow Dragon Model used

Up Smash
Small pop up boxes on the sides removed.
All hitboxes buffed 1%.

Nair
Special cancel added. Must be input between two slashes.

Dolphin Slash
Middle hitboxes buffed 4%.
=======================================================================================
Metaknight
Weight increased from 69- 74.

Side Smash
Startup speed slightly increased.

Fair
last hit damage increased 3%.

Up Throw
Damage reduced. (When MK was normalized, this attack was not taken into account.)
=======================================================================================
Ness
Fair
Hitlag reverted, as it stopped the hits from connecting.

PK Fire Grounded
4 frames of ending lag added.

PK Thunder 1
Heavy armor removed on loop

PSI Magnet Release
Windbox size reduced from 50- 10
=======================================================================================
Peach
Item Throw strength increased- 1- 1.1

Dash Attack
Hitlag reduced from 1- 0.5

Side Tilt
Sourspot damage increased 6- A (6- 10)

Utilt
Interrupt sped up 5 frames

S Smash (Frying Pan)
Angle changed from 7D- 8C (Sends opponents backward over her head.)

Up Smash
sourspot damage increased. 8- B (3%)
Delayed sourspot damage increased. A- C (2%)

Nair
Interrupt added 10 frames sooner

Fair
Hitlag reduced from 1- 0.5
Interrupt added 5 frames sooner

Fair landing
lag reduced 6 frames. 22- 16

Bair
Sourspot buffed from 7%- 11%

Uair
All hitboxes buffed 1%.

Dair
Hold A to make the last hit into a spike.
Fixed a bug where dair's hitbox was lingering if the meteor was used.

Fthrow
Hitlag reduced 1- 0.5

Peach Bomber
1.5 FSM added to speed up endlag on miss.

Spore Counter
Invincibility frames doubled. 4- 8
=======================================================================================
Pikachu
Dash Attack
Interrupt move up 9 frames. (45-36)

Side Smash
Lowered shield damage, 21- 4

Up Smash
non Sweetspot damage increased from b- d (11- 13)
growth decreased by 6. This keeps it killing before the sweetspot.

Sourspot damage increased from 7- A (7-10)

Nair
Sourspot damage increased from 6- 8.

Uair
Middle hitboxes increased by 1%. (second set)

Thunder
Raised shield damage, 2- 10
=======================================================================================
Pit
Jab 3
Trajectory changed to send people diagonally forward. (Sets up for aerials other than bair.)
Endlag decreased 6 frames.

Side Smash
Damage reduced on second hit by 3%. 15 growth added. Doesn't KO as early as it used to.

Altered Side Smash
Trajectory changed to current jab trajectory but more vertical.
Base kb increased drastically, growth reduced drastically
Damage reduced 2%.
Jump Cancel added a few frames after the hitbox terminates. Basically always combos into bair now.

Up Smash
damage reduced on second hit by 2%.

Palutena's Bow
Endlag increased with 0.75 FSM

Angel Ring
First 3 frames of startlag slowed.
=======================================================================================
Poke Ivysaur
Nair
Last hit damage increased 1%.

Bair
Last hit damage increased 2%
sourspot removed.
=======================================================================================
Poke Charizard
Side Smash
Invulnerability removed. Super armor changed to 16% Heavy Armor. Starts when the hitboxes come out. (4 frames later)

Nair
FSM reverted to normal
Sourspot growth reduced 6E- 69 (5)
Interrupt moved back 10 frames. 35- 45.

Nair Landing
FSM reduced to 1
Landlag set to 16 (Edit was previously going to be 20)

Bair
Growth reduced on sweetspot from 6E- 64 (10)

Uair
Puff of fire comes from his mouth.

Dthrow
Growth reduced by 20

Fly
Fire flags added.
=======================================================================================
Roy
Using PM model

Landing Lag increased
Nair= 10- 15
Fair= 11- 13
Bair= 10- 12
Uair= 9- 12
Dair= 12- 16

Jab= Endlag increased 4 frames

Dash Attack= FSM on endlag reduced from 1.5- 1.3

Utilt= Endlag increased 6 frames

Side Smash= Arm sweetspot turned into sourspot.

Up Smash= 2nd slash weakened 2% on sweetspots, 1% on sour. Growth adjusted to compensate.

Down Smash= Endlag 2x fsm reduced to 1.8x.

Uair= Hitbox stays out 1 frame longer. 1 frame gap between two hits removed.
=======================================================================================
Samus
Fusion of 2.x.6 and 3.Q
Attribute Changes
Run speed increased. 1.86- 1.9
Jumps increased by 1.
Fast fall velocity increased. 1.75- 1.95

Taken directly from 2.X.6
Fthrow
Bthrow

Taken directly from 3.Q
Jabs
Side Tilts
Up Tilt
Nair
Uthrow
Dthrow
Bomb

Dtilt
Modified 3.Q. Trip rate removed, interrupt delayed 9 frames.

Side Smash
All hitboxes and trajectory from 3.Q. Can shoot missiles if charged long enough and B is held.

Up Smash
Modified 2.X.6. 10 Bkb and 10 growth added to last hit.

Down Smash
All hitboxes and trajectory from 3.Q. Can transition into bombs if charged long enough and B is held.

Fair
Modified from 3.Q. has 1% higher damage on last hit but 11 less kbg.

Uair
Modified 3.Q. Final hitbox has 3% more damage but 20 less growth.

Dair
Modified 3.Q. Damage reduced 3%

Zair
Able to cancel into specials.

Power Shot
Growth increased drastically on all charges.

Full charged= 35- 25%. Shield damage increased. 3- 15
Near full charged= 28- 21%. Shield damage increased. 0- 12.
High charge= 23- 18%. Shield damage increased. 0- 10.
Mid charge= 18- 15%. Shield damage increased. 0- 8.
Low= Shield damage increased. 0- 6.
Weak Charge= 9- 10%. Shield damage increased. 0- 4.
Weakest Charge= 6- 8%. Shield damage increased. 0- 2.
Uncharged= 4- 6%.

Missiles
Interrupt added on frame 50

Seeker Missiles- Modified from 2.X.6
Damage increased from 4- 5.

Super Missiles- Modified from 2.X.6
Ice blast comes out 12 frames after instead of 60.
Ice has high growth while the missile has low set KB.
Shield damage removed.
Damage decreased from 16- 15.
Interrupt added on frame 50.

Screw Attack
Modified from 2.X.6. Made into a single hit KO move. Deals 18% damage with high shield damage and sends foes straight up.
Hitbox size reduced from 15.2- 10.

Bombs
Modified from 3.Q
High shield damage added. Capable of destroying a shield in two blasts.

=======================================================================================
Samus Zerosuit
U tilt
1.2 Fsm on endlag reverted to normal

D tilt
5 frames of endlag added

Fair
Sweetspot damage set to 10%. (from 11 and 12)

Bair
Growth reduced by 8

Uair
Trajectory on first hit changed from 80 - 74.
Bkb on first hit reduced by 4.
Endlag increased 3 frames.

Landing Lag Increased to:

Fair 12
Bair- 16
Uair- 14
=======================================================================================
Sheik
Side Tilt
5 frames of endlag added. (Edit- reduced from 7- 5)

Down tilt
7 frames of endlag added.

Side Smash
Momentum reduced from 1- 0.7. Changed to set.

Down Smash
Damage on last hit increased by 2%

Nair
Sourspot damage increased 1%.

Bair
Sourspot damage increased 2%.
4 frames of endlag added.

Dair
First 5 frames of Stall before falling reverted to normal.

Chain (grounded)
FSM reduced from 2- 1.5

Chain (aerial)
Vertical momentum increased by .2

Vanish
Intangibility replaced with Super armor.
=======================================================================================
Snake
Dash Attack
Damage on sweetspot reduced 1%.

Up Tilt
Distant hitbox removed.

Uair
Super armor removed

Dair
Damage reduced on last hit 5%.
=======================================================================================
Sonic
Jab 3
Interrupt placed 4 frames sooner.

Up Tilt
Damage increased 1% on last hit.

Nair
Instashield lasts 2 frames longer.

Fair
Damage increased 1% on last hit.

Uair
Damage increased 1% on last hit.

Dair
Damage and KB all reduced and normalized.

Spin Dash
Turned into a hard hitting attack. Can kill at the right percents. Otherwise it allows Sonic to basically cannonball into the enemy to launch them diagonally, giving him a large amount of follow up options.
=======================================================================================
Toon Link
Jabs 1, 2, 4.
Frame speed modifier changed to a constant 1 frame buff at the start only.

Jab 4
BKB up 5. Dmg increased 2%.
Interrupt moved ahead 6 frames.

Side Tilt Hi
FSM added to make 1 frame faster.

Side Smash
Interrupt delayed 9 frames

Up Smash
Interrupt delayed 4 frames

Nair
Interrupt delayed 4 frames

Uair
1.5x Fsm added after hitboxes end. Interrupt removed.

Dair
Jump Cancel re-added.

Grabboxes reverted to Vbrawl.
FSM 7 frames after they terminate reduced from 2- 1.5

Bow
Dodge cancel changed to guard cancel
Arrows given a 15 second timer.
=======================================================================================
Wolf
Utilt
6 frames of endlag added

Dtilt
9 frames of endlag added

Wolf Flash
Cancel window increased?

U Smash
growth on vertical hit normalized. (increased by 15)

Bair
Sweetspot damage reduced by 2%.

Uair
Damage increased by 2
=======================================================================================
Zelda
Jab
Comes out 1 frame slower

Down Smash
Second kick made to match the first. Slightly higher damage and kb growth.

Nair
Damage on looping hits increased by 1%.

Fair
Hold A to use the ranged box, tapping A always lightning kicks but has no teleport box.

Bair
Hold A to use the ranged box, tapping A always lightning kicks but has no teleport box.
0.7 FSM added at start to slow down first 4 frames making the hold or tap timing easier.

Dair
Hold A to use the ranged box, tapping A always lightning kicks but has no teleport box.
Lightning kick damage reduced 2%.
Rangebox size increased to match fair and bair.

Farore's Wind
Made her reappearance a powerful KO move. (KOs around 85)
Given higher hitlag. 2x

Transformation
Fixed Goto that was not allowing her aerial to have cancels.

 

[NEWB]

Awesome. Always a little refreshing to try tweaked builds.

 

[Bent 00]

Interesting... What kind of 'Dorf build will you use?

I'll try it for sure if 'Dorf has his pre-3.Q U-Tilt & D-Smash, and can Flying Warlock Punch safely.

Any changes for Falcon and Zelda?

 

[Gold_TSG]

Change log?

 

[Darxmarx]

This should certainly prove to be interesting. I'll give it a try.

 

[Kien]

Lost my tv right before I could test things. I guess I'll update the OP with my changelog while I can't do anything else.

 

[NEWB]

I like lots of the things I see, though I see a lot of nerfs in many areas for a lot characters. Any reason why?

 

[Thor]

This looks boring - still garbage-fall-speed Samus and you managed to destroy anything good ROB had about him, except some of his KO power...why the heck is his dsmash so slow [frame 8]??? In vBrawl, Zelda's is frame 4 (as is ROB's), MK is frame 5, Pikachu is frame 6... heck I think Falco's is 7, this is a slow dsmash considering it can be SDI'd (that's a big reason ROB's is so fast - it's SDI'able)... also removing the side+b assault? Why not just add a lag modifier similar to RCO lag so ROB's landing lag if using side+B and an aerial is landing lag + 15 frames? Now he sounds like he's less mobile than Bowser... and he doesn't have the camping tools of Link either, since you left him with one gyro and a terrible laser... does the side+b at least keep the cancel/can reflect again, or is it the terrible move it sounds like?

You also added a bunch of random endlag to some characters, but none to Captain Falcon. So Captain Falcon will still be able to assail my shield with near impunity (stupid CC grabs and DAs and CC jabs to end up behind shield...) but I can't be as safe fighting back. Thanks, we all needed that.

You also turned Falco's reflector from his only flexible long-range poke (that wasn't even fully safe, just not super punishable - trust me, it can be well punished if you jump over it and smack Falco in the face, or just bait it and can have even more to smack him, since if you guess wrong you'll still be out of range of pretty much everying) to blegh-garbage (his ftilt still sucks in your build and makes him at a frame disadvantage against Bowser at low percents). Gross.

I'll stick to official Minus. Or even just 3.3, which I think is still one of the best builds of Minus to date.

 

[Bent 00]

No safe Flying Warlock Punch, and those Zelda Nerfs sound terrible.

Meh...

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Yeah....As if the REGULAR Minus characters were ANYTHING like they used to be. They're really close to just partially buffed vBrawl fighters. And now they are NERFED EVEN MORE.
I'm stickin' to my pack. Without moveset changes. Except maybe the Safe Flying Warlock Punch. Maybe.

 

[NEWB]

You can't punish falco if he does utilt in response to you jumping at him. At best, you get a trade. It's also not very interesting to have a move that you can throw out whenever you want.

BUT Falco's A attacks don't have a lot of range.

 

[Thor]

You can't punish falco if he does utilt in response to you jumping at him. At best, you get a trade. It's also not very interesting to have a move that you can throw out whenever you want.

BUT Falco's A attacks don't have a lot of range.

Well I know I've been punished for trying exactly that (utilt), it was Captain Falcon too so I don't think it's a specific person thing (Marth and Ike definitely can via fair, counter, etc., I know Luigi can Thunderhand through (very favorable trade), Kirby can inhale and bair, Jiggs has bair, there are more), but if people think a 4% poke is too safe, ok... I still think it should just do less damage, since at some point Falco will mess up (if he's only reflector to utilt, that's punishable too).

I still think just reducing the move to do 1 or 2% is fine, but others seem to disagree. His A moves still have pitiful range (you can either stand backward and SH bair or stand forward and reflector or laser, pick).

Also the move should have higher BKB, unless it's designed so that Bowser gets hit on the way out AND then gets sucked back on the way in and Falco can hit him with utilt and then jump and repeat this process over and over again up until some rather high percent.

 

[Kien]

I like lots of the things I see, though I see a lot of nerfs in many areas for a lot characters. Any reason why?

A lot of characters have insanely unfair matchups due to being way too strong in a particular area. I feel like these nerfs will bring many characters down to an even level. After which I'll be bringing everyone up when I feel that they're balanced enough.

This looks boring - still garbage-fall-speed Samus and you managed to destroy anything good ROB had about him, except some of his KO power...why the heck is his dsmash so slow [frame 8]??? In vBrawl, Zelda's is frame 4 (as is ROB's), MK is frame 5, Pikachu is frame 6... heck I think Falco's is 7, this is a slow dsmash considering it can be SDI'd (that's a big reason ROB's is so fast - it's SDI'able)... also removing the side+b assault? Why not just add a lag modifier similar to RCO lag so ROB's landing lag if using side+B and an aerial is landing lag + 15 frames? Now he sounds like he's less mobile than Bowser... and he doesn't have the camping tools of Link either, since you left him with one gyro and a terrible laser... does the side+b at least keep the cancel/can reflect again, or is it the terrible move it sounds like?

You also added a bunch of random endlag to some characters, but none to Captain Falcon. So Captain Falcon will still be able to assail my shield with near impunity (stupid CC grabs and DAs and CC jabs to end up behind shield...) but I can't be as safe fighting back. Thanks, we all needed that.

You also turned Falco's reflector from his only flexible long-range poke (that wasn't even fully safe, just not super punishable - trust me, it can be well punished if you jump over it and smack Falco in the face, or just bait it and can have even more to smack him, since if you guess wrong you'll still be out of range of pretty much everying) to blegh-garbage (his ftilt still sucks in your build and makes him at a frame disadvantage against Bowser at low percents). Gross.

I'll stick to official Minus. Or even just 3.3, which I think is still one of the best builds of Minus to date.

You'll see that Samus isn't mentioned yet. I'm really considered 2.X.6 Samus with a few modifications to make her more flexible. This ROB isn't about mobility. Picking him up would actually be like learning a new character to an extent. He's more of a tank sniper now with close to long ranged combos. The side B can reflect but not cancel.

As for the endlag, There's a reason this isn't released yet. I haven't played against many Captain Falcon's so I have no idea where he needs lag IF he needs lag. I totally asked for feedback. At least you gave some instead of just saying oh at sucks.

No safe Flying Warlock Punch, and those Zelda Nerfs sound terrible.

Meh...

Zelda will likely get buffs. I just want to see how this feels before I even say it's in this build.

Yeah....As if the REGULAR Minus characters were ANYTHING like they used to be. They're really close to just partially buffed vBrawl fighters. And now they are NERFED EVEN MORE.
I'm stickin' to my pack. Without moveset changes. Except maybe the Safe Flying Warlock Punch. Maybe.

I don't know anything about regular Minus power. I joined the community in 2.X.

 

[Thor]

For what it's worth, @SunderStorm has input you would probably value on Captain Falcon. I don't know if he actually cares to play this build, but Captain Falcon is his main.

Also I think ROB should be a bit heavier, since he's a sniper but not really a tank (I'm not talking Bowser or Charizard or Dorf or even Snake levels, but I think he's outweighed by Link or someone else like that when as a giant hunk of metal he really should weigh more than that, especially considering ROB now doesn't have the approaching game/mobility he has in the official Minus builds).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

every char is weaker than water

Buff 88888% plz thnx


it seems like you're trying to streamline them just right. however, in doing that, you made them weaker than melee kirby and brawl ganondorf combined.

 

[NEWB]

He said he plans to bring them up afterwards. That should be fine as long as it doesn't take too long to start buffing people again.

 

[Glyph]

No, thats really dumb. Why would you overnerf and already expect to buff it later? All that will do is frustrate the people who use those characters until you decide to give them a decent version god knows when.

 

[NEWB]

Meh? Necessary process? It doesn't even really matter since you can just keep whatever characters you want. That and I wouldn't expect to see many of these changes since I doubt they would allow future tweaks to appear here before an official release.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

No, thats really dumb. Why would you overnerf and already expect to buff it later? All that will do is frustrate the people who use those characters until you decide to give them a decent version god knows when.

thats actually smarter than you think. he's trying to have a more rounded- character to buff before he does it. he doesn't want any rough edges or nothing before he buffs them, because it will lead into a mess. Im not sure about all of those changes to round them out, but if it leads well, im gud

 

[Kien]

For what it's worth, @SunderStorm has input you would probably value on Captain Falcon. I don't know if he actually cares to play this build, but Captain Falcon is his main.

Also I think ROB should be a bit heavier, since he's a sniper but not really a tank (I'm not talking Bowser or Charizard or Dorf or even Snake levels, but I think he's outweighed by Link or someone else like that when as a giant hunk of metal he really should weigh more than that, especially considering ROB now doesn't have the approaching game/mobility he has in the official Minus builds).

Well that feedback would be appreciated. I did intend to make ROB heavier. In Minus I believe he's the same weight as Link actually. No thoughts on me getting 2.X.6 Samus? I really liked Ice missiles, unlike the rest of the br.

every char is weaker than water

Buff 88888% plz thnx


it seems like you're trying to streamline them just right. however, in doing that, you made them weaker than melee kirby and brawl ganondorf combined.

I think they're still pretty strong. Not as strong as any version of Minus I've played, but stronger than Bbrawl or Melee. Any suggestions? Characters I haven't listed aren't yet tweaked. Including Squirtle who I have reason to believe you use.

No, thats really dumb. Why would you overnerf and already expect to buff it later? All that will do is frustrate the people who use those characters until you decide to give them a decent version god knows when.

It's not a matter of overnerf to buff later. It wouldn't be balancing if everything was perfectly even on round one. What I'm doing is giving myself a good starting point because I don't think any current versions are suitable.

Meh? Necessary process? It doesn't even really matter since you can just keep whatever characters you want. That and I wouldn't expect to see many of these changes since I doubt they would allow future tweaks to appear here before an official release.

You never know.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

I hope there's changes.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think they're still pretty strong. Not as strong as any version of Minus I've played, but stronger than Bbrawl or Melee. Any suggestions? Characters I haven't listed aren't yet tweaked. Including Squirtle who I have reason to believe you .

Well, I play a variety of chars since knowing multiple chars of differing tiers helps know the meta of minus.

Here's what I know; if you're going to buff squirtle to be fun and balanced, you're going to have to run by a theme. Squirtle is fast but has short ranged, floaty, light, and hard to hit. Plus, he has armor on a lot of his shell attacks. All of this could add up to a theme; parries. You could turn his down taunt into a parry for the air and ground, give it startup and ONLY give end lag when he misses. That's one Of my ideas, but I could more thougj

 

[Kien]

A theme sounds fine. As for what @Glyph said.
I'm not the BR. I don't have to wait hella long to get updates out once the release is here. All I need is feedback.

 

[Thor]

Kien, I have no thoughts on 2.X.6 Samus because I played her exactly once via Random in 2.X.6 before I actually enjoyed playing Samus to any degree at all.

That said, I know NEWB is a huge fan of this Samus (if he hasn't already said so), and any version of Samus that doesn't fall like a rock is better in my book.

I would probably like it tons if you added in 3.Q dtilt and uthrow (no self-damage, good damage output and utility), but that might break the balance of your build...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

oh yea, i just thought of something.
You said you're making ROB a heavy sniper type char? well, in the spirit of minus, you should make it heavy-exaggerated. Make him really good in that category; huge lasers, missiles from the SSE emissary, etc... make him ultra.
same with other chars.