Is Pichu too small? Check this pic and vote!

[SilverStarApple]

It's relevant because we are talking about Pichu's size...?

You are incredibly stubborn. There's any point in discussing this subject with someone that has your mindset.

Now, now. Calling someone stubborn isn't going to guilt me into changing my mind, making a solid argument instead of tagging in the next Pichu hater to come at me fresh will.

 

[SilverStarApple]

He switched off Pichu because he was losing. Joey was one of the few people back them to know the MU and how to DI down B. Pichu wasn't OP people just didn't know how to play against him. That doesn't mean he wasn't really good though

THANK YOU. See? Maybe if this Multi-Boy Melee over here learned the matchup, (and git gud), they wouldn't think a weak yellow mouse baby that hurt itself when it tries using moves worth a damn is overpowered.

A character is overpowered when it breaks the game, not when it beats your ass. Melee Fox isn't overpowered, but Pre-Nerf Bayonetta was. Hell, even her fans couldn't pull up convincing arguments about that. Is BeefySmashDude's "Just rely on true combos and if you get hit by her downb, hope she screws up her combo because that's all you can do" video still up? That belongs in a museum.

 

[player_03]

He has plenty of tools to win, and his size is just a nuisance to players. I understand that pichu being small is "part of his character" or whatever argument you are trying to use. But "dodging attacks by doing nothing" definitely is not.

Please respond to this. Why do you think Pichu needs to be able to dodge attacks by standing still, on top of its already-powerful moveset?

THANK YOU. See? Maybe if this Multi-Boy Melee over here learned the matchup, (and git gud),

For the record, Joeybeta is currently one of the best Minus players. This was a case of a better player beating a worse one, and it doesn't prove anything about Pichu's overall balance. Also, Joey plays Lucario, who has no trouble hitting Pichu. (Even up-smash hits.)

a weak yellow mouse baby that hurt itself when it tries using moves worth a damn

The Brawl- team balanced around this already. Also, the non-self-damage moves are still useful in many cases. For instance, weak moves are often better at comboing.

A character is overpowered when it breaks the game, not when it beats your ass. Melee Fox isn't overpowered, but Pre-Nerf Bayonetta was.

Being overpowered isn't all-or-nothing. It's possible for a character to be only mildly overpowered, in which case it's worth nerfing the character slightly.

 

[player_03]

Those comparisons are manipulated and staged to make him look harder to hit than he actually is.

Maybe that's true of the Diddy one, because Diddy does a sliding up-smash against Pichu but stands still against Kirby. But how are the others staged/manipulated? They look fair to me.

And how about this example? I fired missiles from a bunch of different spots, and they all missed.


Note: those orange sparks indicate that the missiles were 0.1 units away from hitting Pichu. However, they can't actually hit until Pichu performs its "stand on tiptoes and look around" animation, which happens at random.

Now compare Kirby:

 

[Ludacario]

Please respond to this. Why do you think Pichu needs to be able to dodge attacks by standing still, on top of its already-powerful moveset?

Oh god no. You must have misunderstood, my apologies. I was saying that he should not be able to dodge attacks by standing still. For the record this thread was super old (4.0b days) when it was brought up. Pichu's size has been altered a bit, but not much. Thanks for some footage Player_03!

 

[player_03]

Actually, I quoted your post because I thought it was good. My question was directed at SilverStarApple. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[Malkasaur]

Pichu is pretty dumb ATM, most of it comes from him being so small. Pichu can dodge Wario's BAir and FAir simply by standing still. I can't use Wario for the Pichu MU because of this.

 

[Mimsy]

THANK YOU. See? Maybe if this Multi-Boy Melee over here learned the matchup, (and git gud), they wouldn't think a weak yellow mouse baby that hurt itself when it tries using moves worth a damn is overpowered.

1v1 Luda, and we'll see who needs to "git gud"

 

[Dusk]

Pichu is pretty dumb ATM, most of it comes from him being so small. Pichu can dodge Wario's BAir and FAir simply by standing still. I can't use Wario for the Pichu MU because of this.

Git gud or use other attacks to knock up pichu then lead into fair/bair. Besides a pichu's not going to always be standing still while the games in motion. In theory pichus size is silly but in practice he's always moving around for positional advantages. Albeit you could play like Hash and just spam Dair into Dsmash into thunder chains but thats limiting what you could do with the character and if someone knows how to counter it then it destroys your purpose with said character. Even in that situation Hash is constantly moving trying to get above you to use Dair or baiting out your moves because you have an easy to ready pattern and following up with an appropriate punish.

 

[Mimsy]

Dusk you're a pikachu main?

 

[SilverStarApple]

Git gud or use other attacks to knock up pichu then lead into fair/bair. Besides a pichu's not going to always be standing still while the games in motion. In theory pichus size is silly but in practice he's always moving around for positional advantages. Albeit you could play like Hash and just spam Dair into Dsmash into thunder chains but thats limiting what you could do with the character and if someone knows how to counter it then it destroys your purpose with said character. Even in that situation Hash is constantly moving trying to get above you to use Dair or baiting out your moves because you have an easy to ready pattern and following up with an appropriate punish.

Finally, someone with sense!

 

[Dusk]

Mimsy no but he has a cool icon

 

[player_03]

In theory pichus size is silly but in practice he's always moving around for positional advantages.

If the problem is that Pichu dodges attacks by standing in place, the solution cannot be "in practice, Pichu will jump into your attacks." If you're throwing out attacks that only hit because Pichu is jumping around, players are going to learn to stop doing that. Pichu has a powerful tool, and sooner or later, players will figure out how to abuse it.

Bair is arguably Wario's best approach option. Fast, powerful, and safe. But the main reason it's safe is because it gets Wario out of the way before shieldstun ends. Since Pichu doesn't have to shield, there's no shieldstun, and Pichu can easily intercept with utilt or Discharge.

Normally, a counter-strategy requires some form of commitment. A player can dodge, jump over, or counter Wario's bair, but they have to commit to that before bair starts. Then Wario can read those options and do something else. Dodging, jumping, or countering restricts the other player's options, allowing Wario to punish them.

On the other hand, standing still requires exactly zero commitment. By standing still, Pichu keeps all its options open, while shutting down one of Wario's better options. Alternatively, Pichu could dash-dance, which would open up a bunch more options, though it would also make it harder to respond with utilt.

 

[Dusk]

On the other hand, standing still requires exactly zero commitment. By standing still, Pichu keeps all its options open, while shutting down one of Wario's better options. Alternatively, Pichu could dash-dance, which would open up a bunch more options, though it would also make it harder to respond with utilt.

Or y'know crouchdash back and bait things out easily :O

 

[player_03]

I just ran a few tests, and it looks like you have to finish the dash startup animation before you can crouch-dash. (The dash startup animation, for the record, is what allows you to dash-dance.)

Pichu is great at dash-dancing because it has a relatively long startup animation. But this also makes it harder to crouch-dash out of a dash-dance, since Pichu has to wait longer before crouch-dashing becomes possible. That means it'll dash a significant distance towards the danger before turning around.

Crouch-dashing is great once you finish the dash startup animation, of course.

 

[SilverStarApple]

If the problem is that Pichu dodges attacks by standing in place, the solution cannot be "in practice, Pichu will jump into your attacks." If you're throwing out attacks that only hit because Pichu is jumping around, players are going to learn to stop doing that. Pichu has a powerful tool, and sooner or later, players will figure out how to abuse it.

Bair is arguably Wario's best approach option. Fast, powerful, and safe. But the main reason it's safe is because it gets Wario out of the way before shieldstun ends. Since Pichu doesn't have to shield, there's no shieldstun, and Pichu can easily intercept with utilt or Discharge.

Normally, a counter-strategy requires some form of commitment. A player can dodge, jump over, or counter Wario's bair, but they have to commit to that before bair starts. Then Wario can read those options and do something else. Dodging, jumping, or countering restricts the other player's options, allowing Wario to punish them.

On the other hand, standing still requires exactly zero commitment. By standing still, Pichu keeps all its options open, while shutting down one of Wario's better options. Alternatively, Pichu could dash-dance, which would open up a bunch more options, though it would also make it harder to respond with utilt.

Does he "Dodge attacks by standing still", or just the attacks you see used in those manipulative "Example" images?

Have you gone online and fought For Glory people that win by abusing a broken thing? No? Then is it truly broken?

If anything, those attacks should have their hitboxes altered, not Pichu. And if a Pichu is just standing still, you can easily hit it with any punish you want.

 

[player_03]

Does he "Dodge attacks by standing still", or just the attacks you see used in those manipulative "Example" images?

He dodges spacing tools like Samus's power missile, approach options like Wario's bair (unless Wario takes extra time to set it up), and "get off me" options like Ganondorf's jab. How are these unrealistic?

By the way, dash-dancing gives Pichu an even lower hitbox, letting it consistently dodge Falco's lasers.

If anything, those attacks should have their hitboxes altered, not Pichu.

Pichu is the common problem with a bunch of attacks, and your solution is to change everything else? Changing Pichu will have many fewer side-effects.

And if a Pichu is just standing still, you can easily hit it with any punish you want.

This is what I was getting at when I said "Pichu keeps all its options open." If Pichu reads your approach, it can easily counter by shielding, dodging, or using an appropriate attack. Reading is still extremely important, and the thing is, if you can't use one of your best approach options, it becomes a lot easier to read you.

Also, dash-dancing.

 

[SilverStarApple]

He dodges spacing tools like Samus's power missile, approach options like Wario's bair (unless Wario takes extra time to set it up), and "get off me" options like Ganondorf's jab. How are these unrealistic?

By the way, dash-dancing gives Pichu an even lower hitbox, letting it consistently dodge Falco's lasers.



Pichu is the common problem with a bunch of attacks, and your solution is to change everything else? Changing Pichu will have many fewer side-effects.



This is what I was getting at when I said "Pichu keeps all its options open." If Pichu reads your approach, it can easily counter by shielding, dodging, or using an appropriate attack. Reading is still extremely important, and the thing is, if you can't use one of your best approach options, it becomes a lot easier to read you.

Also, dash-dancing.

Oh no, Pichu's size makes it hard to hit him! However will we deal with such a shockingly new thing?

How long was it, from Pichu's introduction to the game to this thread's creation? I'm seeing a lot of "But he IS OP! This doesn't work and this doesn't work and he can dodge this and you need to put extra effort into hitting him! That's so unfair!" in this thread.

 

[player_03]

I'm not saying that Pichu is OP; I'm saying Pichu is polarizing. Specific characters have an extra-hard time against Pichu, while others need no extra effort.

For instance, I main Mr. Game and Watch. Since he's so short and has large, long-lasting hitboxes, I can use any move I like and still reliably hit. I don't have to give up approach options or spacing tools.

Actually, G&W himself is polarizing thanks to Oil Panic. If he fills his bucket with any three of Pichu's projectiles, he can OHKO Pichu. (In the case of Thunderbolt and Discharge, two are enough.) This is a problem because it punishes Pichu way too hard for using some of its better moves, without hurting non-projectile-based characters at all. But the solution isn't to adjust Pichu's moves; the solution is to nerf Oil Panic.

To be fair, Pichu seems a lot less polarizing than G&W. An advantage during neutral isn't anywhere near as bad as an OHKO (even if charging the OHKO is punishable). Still, wouldn't it be nice if Pichu was a little more consistent? Rather than just being good against tall characters, small projectiles, and Wario, what if it had slightly better attacks, so that it could compete with G&W and similar?

 

[baltarc]

How long was it, from Pichu's introduction to the game to this thread's creation?

I'm not entirely sure how this information is relevant to the discussion, but to answer your question, Pichu was introduced in version 3.3, which was released in April 2014. This thread was created in April of 2016. The total time between Pichu's release and this thread's creation was just under two years.

 

[Junior_Z]

You guys need to stop being baited by SilverStarApple. Bent, Player-03, myself, and others have given numerous examples, both practical and theoretical, of the polarizing consequences of Pichu's size. Silver has provided...nothing. This pointless "You guys are crazy!""*insert gfy* is misleading! " banter is pointless. If you want to advocate against any change to Pichu's size, provide some sort of evidence beyond "well I think..." "But you could just do this instead...", or please refrain from posting.

The side in favor of a size increase has provided evidence and clear reasoning.
Now it's your turn.

 

[Mimsy]

 

[Mimsy]

SilverStarApple

 

[SilverStarApple]

SilverStarApple

You rang?

 

[SilverStarApple]

I'm not saying that Pichu is OP; I'm saying Pichu is polarizing. Specific characters have an extra-hard time against Pichu, while others need no extra effort.

For instance, I main Mr. Game and Watch. Since he's so short and has large, long-lasting hitboxes, I can use any move I like and still reliably hit. I don't have to give up approach options or spacing tools.

Actually, G&W himself is polarizing thanks to Oil Panic. If he fills his bucket with any three of Pichu's projectiles, he can OHKO Pichu. (In the case of Thunderbolt and Discharge, two are enough.) This is a problem because it punishes Pichu way too hard for using some of its better moves, without hurting non-projectile-based characters at all. But the solution isn't to adjust Pichu's moves; the solution is to nerf Oil Panic.

To be fair, Pichu seems a lot less polarizing than G&W. An advantage during neutral isn't anywhere near as bad as an OHKO (even if charging the OHKO is punishable). Still, wouldn't it be nice if Pichu was a little more consistent? Rather than just being good against tall characters, small projectiles, and Wario, what if it had slightly better attacks, so that it could compete with G&W and similar?

HOLY SHIT!

Someone figured out how to beat Pichu!

HE WENT BEYOND THE IMPOSSIBLE, AND SAW THE INVISIBLE! WE CAN ALL GO HOME NOW!