Is Pichu too small? Check this pic and vote!

[Junior_Z]

Pichu should be small. This I can agree with. Pichu should be smaller than Pikachu. This I can also agree with. Pichu's ability to dodge attacks with his small stature without even needing to crouch, however, I do not agree with. Ignoring all of the rising shorthop aerials that have become useless on pichu, (the ones that work on every other character, such as rising Ganon fair, Falcon nair, ALL of Diddy's rising aerials, etc.) I have attached a few examples of Pichu's height rendering characters' moves useless when they really should be working on the entire cast. This is the reason that I am for a size increase; some hitboxes just don't work as they should (Diddy, Roy), which I feel goes beyond what the advantages of a small character should have, while others just feel unreasonable (1/3 charged Samus charge shot, Ganon DownB, any jab that can't connect)

 

[Mariosonicman1]

i can surely see the need for a slight hitbox increase after seeing those examples. i didnt know pichu dodged all those attacks that it looks like kirby should of dodged as well.

 

[YershiBear]

For me, Pichu is ridiculously hard to hit due to his lightning-fast attacks (no pun intended) and his TINY SIZE compared to the other fighters. In my opinion, he is ridiculously good, probably one of the best characters in the whole game, mostly due to the speed of his attacks and his unusually tiny collisionboxes (where he can get hurt), but maybe that's just me not knowing a matchup with him.

 

[YershiBear]

i can surely see the need for a slight hitbox increase after seeing those examples. i didnt know pichu dodged all those attacks that it looks like kirby should of dodged as well.

Kirby probably got hit because of the odd hitboxes of the attacks (namely Ganon's jab, which definitely looks like he should have dodged), but Pichu NEEDS to be bigger so he can be hit by all of those attacks as well. He is godlike in Brawl Minus 4.0B, and I can barely hit him.

 

[Junior_Z]

Collected some more footage of silly things Pichu can get away with that he shouldn't be able to.

Spoiler

Note: Pichu is grabbable, but not at close range; only the tip will grab him. This is a Pichu specific quirk when it comes to ZSS' standing grab.

Honorable mentions go to Pichu dodging Falcon and Zero suit's jab and the second hit of Yoshi's jab (Yoshi's jab issue happens with Kirby too), as well as links neutral/forward bomb throw and uncharged/charged arrows.

If Pichu's height is to remain unchanged, I would like to at least request a slight size increase to some of these hitboxes, jabs especially. He has many ways to get in and stay in an opponents face, so to have jabs that work properly to function as a 'get off me' option (as they do with every other character) is critical.

 

[Mariosonicman1]

ooooh yea.... we are defedently in need of some hitbox repositioning. Pichu is my fav smash character of all time and id like her to be OP, but not so op in a way that she is unhitable by many attacks.

 

[Bent 00]

Junior_Z: Thanks for all your research.

The video examples you've posted cement Pichu's small size as a definite problem that cannot just be dismissed.

What do you think about making Pichu this size?

Spoiler: Image

Top-Left is Pichu's Melee Size VS Pikachu's Melee Size (Side-By-Side).
Top-Center is Pichu's Melee Size VS Pikachu's Melee Size (Overlapped).
Top-Right is Pichu's Current Size VS Pichu's Suggested New Size.
Bottom-Left is Pichu's Suggested New Size.
Bottom-Center is Pikachu's Current Size.
Bottom-Right is Pichu's Suggested New Size VS Pikachu's Current Size.

 

[Mariosonicman1]

id prefer if the hitbox was adjusted instead of actually changing pichus size,

 

[Neville]

Collected some more footage of silly things Pichu can get away with that he shouldn't be able to.

Spoiler

Note: Pichu is grabbable, but not at close range; only the tip will grab him. This is a Pichu specific quirk when it comes to ZSS' standing grab.

Honorable mentions go to Pichu dodging Falcon and Zero suit's jab and the second hit of Yoshi's jab (Yoshi's jab issue happens with Kirby too), as well as links neutral/forward bomb throw and uncharged/charged arrows.

If Pichu's height is to remain unchanged, I would like to at least request a slight size increase to some of these hitboxes, jabs especially. He has many ways to get in and stay in an opponents face, so to have jabs that work properly to function as a 'get off me' option (as they do with every other character) is critical.

Pichu also sometimes completely avoids ZSS's side b if you don't hit with the tip. Even 3Q shitty Pichu probably had a good matchup against ZSS.

 

[Junior_Z]

Junior_Z: Thanks for all your research.

The video examples you've posted cement Pichu's small size as a definite problem that cannot just be dismissed.

What do you think about making Pichu this size?

Spoiler: Image

Top-Left is Pichu's Melee Size VS Pikachu's Melee Size (Side-By-Side).
Top-Center is Pichu's Melee Size VS Pikachu's Melee Size (Overlapped).
Top-Right is Pichu's Current Size VS Pichu's Suggested New Size.
Bottom-Left is Pichu's Suggested New Size.
Bottom-Center is Pikachu's Current Size.
Bottom-Right is Pichu's Suggested New Size VS Pikachu's Current Size.

Personally I would like to see that new size implemented but I saw there were some concerns from Pin and co. since the size chage would mean that they would have to mess with the model, with no modeler to fix any distortions that would come with it. So, as an alternative, I would like to suggest giving Pichu's ears a hurtbox. If they already do, stretch the hurtbox along the z axis so that moves can hit them.This would keep him smaller than Pikachu aesthetically, fix all of the hitbox issues, and would resolve the model issue all at once.

 

[666DAMAGE]

I don't think he needs to be much bigger if at all but he needs to have a bigger hurtbox.

If kept as is I'd say make him even lighter than Jigglypuff to compensate, something's gotta give.

 

[SilverStarApple]

NO. Pichu.is small and cute and the PERFECT SIZE.

THE PERFECT SIZE.

If you can't hit him, you suck at the game.

 

[SilverStarApple]

Look, if you have trouble hitting Pichu, just get better at the game and at spacing him. He's light and crappy already, which makes him fun to play as and against. Are the "He should have bigger hurtboxes!" people mad because they lost to a skilled Pichu?

 

[Mariosonicman1]

Look, if you have trouble hitting Pichu, just get better at the game and at spacing him. He's light and crappy already, which makes him fun to play as and against. Are the "He should have bigger hurtboxes!" people mad because they lost to a skilled Pichu?

while i agree he is the perfect size, seeing comparisons of pichu dodging attacks by standing that kirby got hit by made me realise only a slight hitbox adjustment is needed, not really a size change, just a hitbox change.

 

[SilverStarApple]

while i agree he is the perfect size, seeing comparisons of pichu dodging attacks by standing that kirby got hit by made me realise only a slight hitbox adjustment is needed, not really a size change, just a hitbox change.

Those comparisons are manipulated and staged to make him look harder to hit than he actually is.

Watch someone try to use this amazing but kinda crap character in a tournament. Watch an 「ACTUAL MATCH」, not something staged like these clips, and you'll see that Pichu is balanced well with 「ACTUAL MATCH」es in mind.

 

[Ludacario]

Those comparisons are manipulated and staged to make him look harder to hit than he actually is.

Watch someone try to use this amazing but kinda crap character in a tournament. Watch an 「ACTUAL MATCH」, not something staged like these clips, and you'll see that Pichu is balanced well with 「ACTUAL MATCH」es in mind.

Dude chill out. Did you watch the 666th tourney? A pichu player made it incredibly far using Pichu. Abusing his size and down B combos he was insane. I suggest you take a deeper look at characters before making your stance so quickly. And maybe come up with a better stance than "If you can't hit pichu then you just suck." It's obvious in the game that hitting Pichu is very difficult, especially with certain characters. Namely I think of Captain Falcon, Because his gentleman whiffs against pichu. I don't believe his grab connects when pichu is crouching either.

 

[SilverStarApple]

Dude chill out. Did you watch the 666th tourney? A pichu player made it incredibly far using Pichu. Abusing his size and down B combos he was insane. I suggest you take a deeper look at characters before making your stance so quickly. And maybe come up with a better stance than "If you can't hit pichu then you just suck." It's obvious in the game that hitting Pichu is very difficult, especially with certain characters. Namely I think of Captain Falcon, Because his gentleman whiffs against pichu. I don't believe his grab connects when pichu is crouching either.

Ok, "you suck if u cant hit pichu" might be a bit extreme.

But crying about Pichu being small is like crying about Bowser being able to grab you or Toon Link being able to spam projectiles. It's part of what makes that character that character, and what makes minus minus.

And regarding the tournament... Did the Pichu player win?

Edit: Doesn't gentleman also whiff on crouching Kirby?

 

[baltarc]

But crying about Pichu being small is like crying about Bowser being able to grab you or Toon Link being able to spam projectiles. It's part of what makes that character that character, and what makes minus minus.

This is a poor argument, as the point of the thread isn't that Pichu shouldn't be small, but that he shouldn't be as small as he is. Of course Bowser should have a strong grab game and Toon Link shoud have a strong projectile game, but if Bowser's grab game or Toon Link's projectile was too strong, adjustments would have to be made to balance those characters. The argument people in this thread are making is that Pichu is slightly too small and should be made a bit larger for balance purposes while still keeping him small enough that he feels like the same character.

Additionally, it's quite condescending to claim that people arguing in favor of a change you disagree with are "crying," especially considering that pretty much everyone in this thread is having a calm, rational discussion backed by testing and data from the game.

 

[SilverStarApple]

This is a poor argument, as the point of the thread isn't that Pichu shouldn't be small, but that he shouldn't be as small as he is. Of course Bowser should have a strong grab game and Toon Link shoud have a strong projectile game, but if Bowser's grab game or Toon Link's projectile was too strong, adjustments would have to be made to balance those characters. The argument people in this thread are making is that Pichu is slightly too small and should be made a bit larger for balance purposes while still keeping him small enough that he feels like the same character.

Additionally, it's quite condescending to claim that people arguing in favor of a change you disagree with are "crying," especially considering that pretty much everyone in this thread is having a calm, rational discussion backed by testing and data from the game.

Was saying crying a mean way of putting it? Probably.

But OP is setting moves up to not hit him and then claiming he's unhittable. Tournament recordings disagree with this. Bowser's grab game is unfair, Toon Link's projectile spamming is mindless, yet Pichu being small is considered worthy of a nerf?

I hope Pichu is made even smaller in 5.0CC.

 

[Farkus]

Another thing, is it was not the developer's intent to make Pichu OP by being small, Bowser's grab game was his intended way of being buffed, Tink's walls were his intended way of being buffed. Pichu being unhittable by a large amount of the moves in the game was not how he was intended to be OP, and he still has the other tools that were designed for him such as his down b chains, frame positive shield pressure on downsmash and insane speed. This was just an unforeseen consequence that should be fixed.

Additionally, this is his standing height, a lot of animations make his hitbox even smaller.

One last thing I almost forgot to mention. Hash's Pichu actually didn't lose the tournament. He actually switched off of Pichu and then lost.

 

[SilverStarApple]

Another thing, is it was not the developer's intent to make Pichu OP by being small, Bowser's grab game was his intended way of being buffed, Tink's walls were his intended way of being buffed. Pichu being unhittable by a large amount of the moves in the game was not how he was intended to be OP, and he still has the other tools that were designed for him such as his down b chains, frame positive shield pressure on downsmash and insane speed. This was just an unforeseen consequence that should be fixed.

Additionally, this is his standing height, a lot of animations make his hitbox even smaller.

One last thing I almost forgot to mention. Hash's Pichu actually didn't lose the tournament. He actually switched off of Pichu and then lost.

He switched off of Pichu, exactly. If Pichu was OP, Hash would have stayed Pichu and steamrolled everyone.

Pichu is small and light. Making him bigger or his hitboxes bigger erodes what makes that character that character. If you need to nerf him, make him lighter and even easier to KO if you do hit him. (which isn't hard to do when you try).

 

[Ludacario]

He switched off of Pichu, exactly. If Pichu was OP, Hash would have stayed Pichu and steamrolled everyone.

Pichu is small and light. Making him bigger or his hitboxes bigger erodes what makes that character that character. If you need to nerf him, make him lighter and even easier to KO if you do hit him. (which isn't hard to do when you try).

You should watch the tourney before discussing this more. Your points are completely invalid. I believe he switched off of pichu because too many people were giving him crap about using him. His down b chains, along with his movement, make him powerful enough. Making him lighter will not help the problem, because it's so difficult to hit him in the first place. He has plenty of tools to win, and his size is just a nuisance to players. I understand that pichu being small is "part of his character" or whatever argument you are trying to use. But "dodging attacks by doing nothing" definitely is not.

 

[SilverStarApple]

You should watch the tourney before discussing this more. Your points are completely invalid. I believe he switched off of pichu because too many people were giving him crap about using him. His down b chains, along with his movement, make him powerful enough. Making him lighter will not help the problem, because it's so difficult to hit him in the first place. He has plenty of tools to win, and his size is just a nuisance to players. I understand that pichu being small is "part of his character" or whatever argument you are trying to use. But "dodging attacks by doing nothing" definitely is not.

"I don't even have to dodge, he just... misses."

If you can tell me what that's from and how it's relevant here, I'll read the rest of that post.

 

[Ludacario]

"I don't even have to dodge, he just... misses."

If you can tell me what that's from and how it's relevant here, I'll read the rest of that post.

It's relevant because we are talking about Pichu's size...?

You are incredibly stubborn. There's any point in discussing this subject with someone that has your mindset.

 

[Dusk]

He switched off of Pichu, exactly. If Pichu was OP, Hash would have stayed Pichu and steamrolled everyone.

You should watch the tourney before discussing this more. Your points are completely invalid. I believe he switched off of pichu because too many people were giving him crap about using him

He switched off Pichu because he was losing. Joey was one of the few people back them to know the MU and how to DI down B. Pichu wasn't OP people just didn't know how to play against him. That doesn't mean he wasn't really good though