Is Pichu too small? Check this pic and vote!

[Bent 00]

Here is a picture that compares Minus Pichu to Melee Pichu, with nine other characters included for reference:

Please look at the picture and vote whether or not you think Pichu should increase in size in 4.0f.

Also feel free to post reasons for your vote. For example...

"Pichu should be even bigger than he was in Melee because he's much more powerful in Minus."
"Pichu should be a little bigger because [character] can't grab Pichu when [instance when a grab should be possible]."
"Pichu is a good size as-is because [reasons why Pichu needs to be so small]."

Spoiler: All other reference pics

Spoiler: Bonus

 

[Pin Clock]

Pichu's size was chosen to be the same relative to Pikachu's, which is the same in both pictures. Any bigger would be close to if not exactly Pikachu's size, which would look unnatural.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Looks fine as is. Based on the pics, Pichu is exactly as he was relative to Pikachu, while everyone else in the comparisons had their own changes between games. Honestly, height difference is just part of the game's balance in pros and cons. If there's a large enough issue, certain grabs could probably just have their boxes increased in size just enough to grab Pichu.

 

[Thor]

Pichu's ears seem to stick up more in Minus relative to Melee, but if they aren't a hurtbox that is easily hit, then Pichu seems to be net smaller than in Melee [I wonder if Bent could post an image with the ears of Pikachu and Pichu in both the Melee and Minus pics whited out or with a line drawn through them or something?].

That would merit a very slight size increase, but it would also justify making the ears lie more flat, so that might not be the change Bent wanted, but it would still probably help the issue.

 

[Bent 00]

Try comparing Pichu to Kirby instead of Pikachu:

 

[Pin Clock]

Try comparing Pichu to Kirby instead of Pikachu:

1. Pichu's size was designed around Pikachu's, not Kirby's.
2. The Brawl frame of Kirby is stretched, while the Melee frame is squashed, creating an unfair image comparison.

 

[Bent 00]

1. Pichu's size was designed around Pikachu's, not Kirby's.

Pichu's size should scale along with the rest of the cast as well as it does with Pikachu, don't you think?

Look at Link:

2. The Brawl frame of Kirby is stretched, while the Melee frame is squashed, creating an unfair image comparison.

I figured you would say that, but those were the only pics I had on-hand. I'll see if I can post Kirby comparison pics closer to 1:1 later.

 

[Pin Clock]

Pichu's size should scale along with the rest of the cast as well as it does with Pikachu, don't you think?

The rest of the cast does not scale in accordance to melee. From your pictures alone: Falcon and DK become taller than Link, Falcon taller than DK, Mario, Roy, Ness, and Fox get a bit taller as well compared to their Melee counterparts.

Pikachu is the only real comparison because Pikachu is the one we designed Pichu's size around.

 

[Bent 00]

Pikachu is the only real comparison because Pikachu is the one we designed Pichu's size around.

 

[Pin Clock]

Minus Pichu is hunched over. Also the proportions aren't exactly the same due to Minus Pichu using Pikachu's skeleton.

 

[Gold_TSG]

OoT Link is not TP Link

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I'd love to see Pichu's size increased. Even before this post, I've felt Pichu's size was too small. And we shouldn't be taking anything into account other than game balance. Not canon. So it shouldn't matter if Pichu is significantly smaller than Pikachu. If canon was a concern, Olimar and Kirby would be EXTREMELY tiny.

 

[Pin Clock]

I'd love to see Pichu's size increased. Even before this post, I've felt Pichu's size was too small. And we shouldn't be taking anything into account other than game balance. Not canon. So it shouldn't matter if Pichu is significantly smaller than Pikachu. If canon was a concern, Olimar and Kirby would be EXTREMELY tiny.

Less canon more game design. There's defying a fighter's canon size so gameplay makes sense, then there's Pichu being about the same size as Pikachu not making any sense and looking strange to boot.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

... then there's Pichu being about the same size as Pikachu not making any sense and looking strange to boot.

This is a relative statement...aka..opinion. If you as devs just dont want to do it, fine. But, as I said, nothing should be taken into account besides balance. An opinion about what would look off isn't relative to that. Pichu is TINY. His relative size compared to the rest of the cast is smaller than than any other character in a Smash game. If yall think its fine, so be it. But I hope that is because there is game balance justification to support it...not an opinion about what "looks strange." Lol

 

[Bent 00]

Turk Injaydii: Well said.

I haven't seen any good reasons for Pichu being so small, from a functional design perspective. All I've seen is that highly-subjective "we think it would look weird" excuse.

Pichu is an unpredictable powerhouse in Minus. Its strength has grown much since Melee, so I think its physical size should grow too. Its proportions aren't even right -- look at how big Pichu's head was in Melee.

If Pichu being a clone is the excuse for it looking so janky, then why does Roy look so great? He doesn't seem to have any obvious, unintended leftovers from Marth... while it's extremely apparent that Pichu is still using many of Pikachu's assets.

 

[Neville]

Tbh Pichu being small is a solid game design choice. One of Pichu's defining characteristics is that he's tiny, which means it's important that he be an actually small character. Making him Pikachu-sized kind of negates this and is a pretty big nerf to Pichu. The fact that Pichu is hard to hit is not only a canon decision, but also a game design one. He's supposed to be like that.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'm only going to explain this for the sake of explaining it. Melee was designed differently in style than Brawl. If you pay attention to the differences in everyone's models, Melee has them stretched more horizontally, and everyone just looks a bit fatter. Brawl changed the style of the models and made them a bit taller as well, which ultimately made them look much larger on the old Melee stages that returned (as can be seen in the Temple pics).

Pichu has no official Brawl style model to my knowledge, and if I recall correctly, the model they are using now is some sort of abomination unto the lord that uses Pikachu as the base with the model being altered to look like Pichu, which made it easier for them to copy over Pika's moveset instead of manually rigging everything from scratch (if I am wrong, please alert me to this). So, my guess is that, for the sake of keeping the similar proportions to Melee, they opted to keep Pichu a bit smaller. In that vein, I don't think he should be the same size as Pikachu.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Pichu seems a bit powerful to be so hard to hit, and I haven't even played great Pichus. I just know he can kill off the top extremely well, has excellent spacing options with the lightning orbs he can lay, can cover ground very quickly with all the movement options afforded by his moveset, and he's just in general much stronger than he was in Melee (obviously, lol). When you put all that together into something that is tiny and hard to hit, that's very dangerous.

I'll have to play around with the game a bit more with Pichu specifically. Maybe I'll get lucky and good one will develop in my scene so I can gain very solid knowledge about the character. I'll also be interested to see what other members of my scene think; something I'll keep the devs posted on because I want to give them feedback from a player base to help improve the game...me loves Minus, so I'll help anyway I can

Anywho, to get back on topic...If the character dies very early (and I mean VERY early), I can see the size being justifiable. We shall see.

 

[Pin Clock]

If Pichu being a clone is the excuse for it looking so janky, then why does Roy look so great? He doesn't seem to have any obvious, unintended leftovers from Marth... while it's extremely apparent that Pichu is still using many of Pikachu's assets.

Because Pikachu's skeleton is infinitely harder to work with than Marth's skeleton.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Anywho, to get back on topic...If the character dies very early (and I mean VERY early), I can see the size being justifiable. We shall see.

IIRC, Pichu is the lightest character in B-

 

[Pin Clock]

IIRC, Pichu is the lightest character in B-

Jigglypuff

 

[Mariosonicman1]

i was always a fan of small characters. to make pichu bigger would make me sad when i cant have a pretty small pichu defeat a giant bowser.

 

[Bent 00]

Here's a few more (higher quality) reference pics. Tried to get a Kirby comparison closer to 1:1.

 

[Pin Clock]

Here's a few more (higher quality) reference pics. Tried to get a Kirby comparison closer to 1:1.

I'm only going to explain this for the sake of explaining it. Melee was designed differently in style than Brawl. If you pay attention to the differences in everyone's models, Melee has them stretched more horizontally, and everyone just looks a bit fatter. Brawl changed the style of the models and made them a bit taller as well, which ultimately made them look much larger on the old Melee stages that returned (as can be seen in the Temple pics).

Pichu has no official Brawl style model to my knowledge, and if I recall correctly, the model they are using now is some sort of abomination unto the lord that uses Pikachu as the base with the model being altered to look like Pichu, which made it easier for them to copy over Pika's moveset instead of manually rigging everything from scratch (if I am wrong, please alert me to this). So, my guess is that, for the sake of keeping the similar proportions to Melee, they opted to keep Pichu a bit smaller. In that vein, I don't think he should be the same size as Pikachu.

Also, why are you trying to use Melee as an argument for how things should be in Minus? This isn't P:M.

 

[Bent 00]

Also, why are you trying to use Melee as an argument for how things should be in Minus? This isn't P:M.

Because Melee is considered by many to be a pinnacle of game design? The Melee devs did an excellent job on character sizes. Using their work as a reference point just makes good sense from a design standpoint. Refusing to use such solid foundations (in this instance, at least) is like deciding to build a house on sand instead of on concrete, or deciding to sculpt a statue out of silly putty instead of a more solid material. Nobody complained about Pichu's size in Melee (AFAIK), and we've seen more than a few complaints about its size in Minus... The obvious thing to do here is to look at the game that did things right, and use their work as a reference to improve your own.

Here's my suggestion for Pichu's size in 4.0f.

Doesn't that look better?