Lightning
Ikesexual
Wait, I just need to clarify, you need a reply of someone crawldashing to the right, yes? Like, run right>crawl backwards>glide to the left
How to Fix Momentum-sapping Pause in Dash-Cancelled-Backwards-Crawl (D.C.B.C.) going right?
- Thread starter Bent 00
- Start date
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
I want to see proof that the reverse is possible:
Run left > Long (not short) Crawldash backwards to the right.
Try it as Luigi. Good luck...
Lightning
Ikesexual
Couldn't get the long crawldash to work with Luigi either direction. I was able to get a short crawldash for both directions if that counts.
I also tried it with Sheik. I was able to do a long crawldash running to the right, but I did a short crawldash running to the left..
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Looks like you got it working both ways with Luigi's fireball taunt, but can you get it working equally well both ways cancelling only into Luigi's backwards crawl? Keep Luigi crouched during the backwards slide, and see if you can get the full distance going backwards-right.amidoingitrite?
Whenever you dash right, then dash cancel and hold down-left, Luigi will do a long crawldash; he'll skitter to the left the width of the diamond in the middle of FD.
However, if you try to do this in reverse, Luigi will not skitter / take a bunch of little steps; he'll take just a few steps instead, moving to the right only a short distance as wide as Luigi himself.
owo
Well-Known Member
Hm I see what you mean how the distance is shorter when continuing crawling after crawldashing (left to right). Unless my timing wasn't strict enough I couldn't get past the few stutters. I could, however, get the full distance if I cancelled the crawldash into a taunt, d-tilt (ZSS), charged upsmash, jab, and neutral B. Buffering a jump works too but there's no slide since you're airborne. It still retains the momentum though and is useful for b-airs
I really don't care whether you believe me bent, however im telling you that there is no difference in the coding between crawldashes. It's literally the same as wavedashing. Its a highly precise maneuver, and if you do it perfect between both directions it will work the same. It's an exploit of the way the physics engine brawl uses deals with crawling backwards and quickly letting go with the momentum capture code we have. Nothing more.
There is literally no way that the affects would be different between them, it's simply not possible. The same physics that controls it crawldashing to the left, applies to the right as well.
To be perfectly clear, crawldashing wasnt coded in by us at all. It's a side-affect of a code we use, and you can even do it in PM. It's not something we can change
There is literally no way that the affects would be different between them, it's simply not possible. The same physics that controls it crawldashing to the left, applies to the right as well.
To be perfectly clear, crawldashing wasnt coded in by us at all. It's a side-affect of a code we use, and you can even do it in PM. It's not something we can change
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
So you and Gold can do the long, always-crouched crawldash backwards to the right as Luigi? It seems impossible on my end.
It's probably something that can be fixed -- whether or not it's worth the time and effort it would take to fix is uncertain, though.
I'd just like to know what causes this problem. It's definitely not user input. Try what I quoted above, you'll see.
It's probably something that can be fixed -- whether or not it's worth the time and effort it would take to fix is uncertain, though.
I'd just like to know what causes this problem. It's definitely not user input. Try what I quoted above, you'll see.
Which code is it a side-effect of?
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Bent, i already DID try it. I already said on the last page that i sub luigi, and crawldashing is highly essential to the way i play him. it IS in fact player input.
It's a side-affect of the momentum capture code is my guess, and if not then it's just brawl's physics engine interacting with our characters. You can either trust my word as a developer of this game (and the one who would know most about this) or you can disbelieve me and go on your merry way believing whatever.
Also, it cannot be fixed to my knowledge. If it was fixable PM would have got rid of it completely instead of merely reducing it's distance.
It's a side-affect of the momentum capture code is my guess, and if not then it's just brawl's physics engine interacting with our characters. You can either trust my word as a developer of this game (and the one who would know most about this) or you can disbelieve me and go on your merry way believing whatever.
Also, it cannot be fixed to my knowledge. If it was fixable PM would have got rid of it completely instead of merely reducing it's distance.
I don't care enough about the subject to clean my SD card completely of the current dev version, download a copy of the public version, load it in dolphin, record and render in camtasia, and then upload to youtube.
Even just uploading a replay file i would need to do half of those steps, and likely lose something im working on in the BR. Im just putting it out there that it's the same regardless of direction in my experience.
This may be because i play melee and am used to precise button inputs. Whether people wanna believe me is not up to me though. Sorry mate, im not uploading stuff
Even just uploading a replay file i would need to do half of those steps, and likely lose something im working on in the BR. Im just putting it out there that it's the same regardless of direction in my experience.
This may be because i play melee and am used to precise button inputs. Whether people wanna believe me is not up to me though. Sorry mate, im not uploading stuff
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Come on.... Stop throwing rocks. If it wasn't a concern, then it wouldn't have been brought up or explored. This discussion is NOT pointless because it shows that there is indeed no issue with crawl dashing working more for left or right or whatever. I can sympathisize with not wanting to waste time on things, but bent won't be the only person having trouble.
As for the reason for this debate, the player should be able to have control of his fighter. Whether the problem exists or not is irrevelant. These threads are here to alert devs of possible problems. Dealing with this sort if thing is part of the job, and remarks like that aren't helping.
Or would you really rather we stopped posting problems?
As for the reason for this debate, the player should be able to have control of his fighter. Whether the problem exists or not is irrevelant. These threads are here to alert devs of possible problems. Dealing with this sort if thing is part of the job, and remarks like that aren't helping.
Or would you really rather we stopped posting problems?
I'm not throwing rocks. I'm just holding onto a very sizable stone. The thread I never said was pointless. The thread is fine. However, upon first notice of his supposed claim being disproved he should have understood that perhaps he was doing something wrong. Instead he keeps demanding video proof in what comes off to me as an immature manner. I could personally care less if crawldashing works both ways or not, but seeing as at least two of our more skilled members from what I've heard are capable of performing such a feat, he shouldn't be demanding them to waste their time uploading a video so he can say "Oh. I guess I was wrong." It wastes everyone's time when we have to read things like this and say "I've done that before." Only for him to play the pics or it didn't happen card, taken to a new extreme of clips or it didn't happen.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Last I'll say about this topic until I get video proof:
- Play as Luigi, Sheik, Diddy Kong, or Pichu.
- Go to Final Destination. Versus or Training, either mode works.
- Make the diamond in the middle of the stage your testing ground.
- Dash right, then immediately press down, then roll the control stick into the down-left position. Hold the stick there.
- Notice how the momentum from the cancelled dash carries over into the backwards crawldash going left.
- Next, try the reverse: dash left, then immediately press down, the roll the control stick to the down-right position. Hold it there.
- Notice how the momentum from your dash is not carried over into the crawldash as well in this direction.
- If you remain crouched for the duration of the backwards-going-right crawldash, you'll notice that your character pauses, losing the momentum from your cancelled dash. This pause does not occur during a backwards-going-left crawldash; going backwards-left, the momentum from your cancelled dash is transferred to the crawldash smoothly.
- See the problem? It's that pause in the backwards-going-right crawldash.
I can't explain this any better without a video. That replay I posted earlier demonstrates what I'm getting at.
I meant no disrespect to any of the devs, but this problem is right in front of me, and Gold and Sammi are saying it doesn't exist, when it does. I suspect they have a slightly different interpretation of the term "crawldash" than me; they are able to cancel the backwards crawl into moves nearly equally well in either direction, so they think it's fine. What they're not trying is staying crouched for the duration of the backwards-going-right crawldash. There's an obvious pause in that version that's causing the momentum from the dash to be mostly lost.
There's definitely something "off" here. It's a minor issue, but it's there. It's one thing to tell me you can't or won't attempt to fix it, but it's another thing entirely to tell me this problem just doesn't exist, and blame it on my technical skill (which is not lacking in this instance). The latter thing just makes me look bad, and I don't deserve that since the (minor) issue I'm pointing out is real. Besides, other posters besides me have tested this and experienced the problem I described.
- Play as Luigi, Sheik, Diddy Kong, or Pichu.
- Go to Final Destination. Versus or Training, either mode works.
- Make the diamond in the middle of the stage your testing ground.
- Dash right, then immediately press down, then roll the control stick into the down-left position. Hold the stick there.
- Notice how the momentum from the cancelled dash carries over into the backwards crawldash going left.
- Next, try the reverse: dash left, then immediately press down, the roll the control stick to the down-right position. Hold it there.
- Notice how the momentum from your dash is not carried over into the crawldash as well in this direction.
- If you remain crouched for the duration of the backwards-going-right crawldash, you'll notice that your character pauses, losing the momentum from your cancelled dash. This pause does not occur during a backwards-going-left crawldash; going backwards-left, the momentum from your cancelled dash is transferred to the crawldash smoothly.
- See the problem? It's that pause in the backwards-going-right crawldash.
I can't explain this any better without a video. That replay I posted earlier demonstrates what I'm getting at.
I meant no disrespect to any of the devs, but this problem is right in front of me, and Gold and Sammi are saying it doesn't exist, when it does. I suspect they have a slightly different interpretation of the term "crawldash" than me; they are able to cancel the backwards crawl into moves nearly equally well in either direction, so they think it's fine. What they're not trying is staying crouched for the duration of the backwards-going-right crawldash. There's an obvious pause in that version that's causing the momentum from the dash to be mostly lost.
There's definitely something "off" here. It's a minor issue, but it's there. It's one thing to tell me you can't or won't attempt to fix it, but it's another thing entirely to tell me this problem just doesn't exist, and blame it on my technical skill (which is not lacking in this instance). The latter thing just makes me look bad, and I don't deserve that since the (minor) issue I'm pointing out is real. Besides, other posters besides me have tested this and experienced the problem I described.
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Other Aether
Mediator
He's making assumptions based on owo's video. It's natural to be skeptical of things without solid proof, especially if one is unable to replicate it on their own. I understand where you're coming from, but please just try to understand that and either post video proof or move on from this topic. Flamewars, even very mild ones, get people nowhere.
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Bent, your problem is right there. Your not supposed to hold the stick there after you perform the crawl back. you let go, similar to the way shell shifting works with squirtle. If your holding the control stick, you run the chance of the canceling alot of your sliding momentum. Furthermore, i never said it went the same distance cancelling into moves. You don't need to cancel into moves to crawldash.
Also, for future reference, my definition of crawldashing is dashing, crouching, immediately hitting crawl backwards and then letting go of the control stick. It goes the same distance everytime i do it, regardless of direction. Your simply not going to convince me that "it's just broken and doesn't work as well from the other side", when i ALSO am sitting here looking at the results. just as im not going to sit here and try and force you to believe that it's not.
But i am going to put the facts out there, that the code treats the momentum your character has exactly the same regardless of direction. Thats just the way momentum traction work, its coded into the raw physics of the game. There is no coding or anything in any place that says that momentum going left is conserved better then to the right.
EDIT: also, aether. The problem here is that we as devs (especially me who is most knowledgeable on this subject) is giving him reasonable evidence and explanations as to why it would not work for him. He can disagree all he wants, thats his right. But he isn't just doing that, he is insisting that we are wrong and completely discrediting our explanation without even considering the fact that it could very well be an input or tech error. He's literally saying "nah its not me, i know my tech is good enough. it can't be me". Even after i gave him very specific insights into how this technique is even handled by the games code, he still insists that i must be wrong or that i am mistaken in my definition of the technique
Also, for future reference, my definition of crawldashing is dashing, crouching, immediately hitting crawl backwards and then letting go of the control stick. It goes the same distance everytime i do it, regardless of direction. Your simply not going to convince me that "it's just broken and doesn't work as well from the other side", when i ALSO am sitting here looking at the results. just as im not going to sit here and try and force you to believe that it's not.
But i am going to put the facts out there, that the code treats the momentum your character has exactly the same regardless of direction. Thats just the way momentum traction work, its coded into the raw physics of the game. There is no coding or anything in any place that says that momentum going left is conserved better then to the right.
EDIT: also, aether. The problem here is that we as devs (especially me who is most knowledgeable on this subject) is giving him reasonable evidence and explanations as to why it would not work for him. He can disagree all he wants, thats his right. But he isn't just doing that, he is insisting that we are wrong and completely discrediting our explanation without even considering the fact that it could very well be an input or tech error. He's literally saying "nah its not me, i know my tech is good enough. it can't be me". Even after i gave him very specific insights into how this technique is even handled by the games code, he still insists that i must be wrong or that i am mistaken in my definition of the technique
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Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
By your definition, what I'm having a problem with isn't even a crawldash. Key difference: "letting go of the control stick". What do you call moving backward while staying crouched faster than normal by cancelling a dash into a backwards crawl? "Dash-Cancelled-Backwards-Crawl", perhaps? Let's use that. "D.C.B.C.".
Are you saying that the part I've highlighted in bold below does not happen?
The point of this topic is to hopefully find out what causes that pause, and figure out if it can be removed or not. I suspect that backwards-going-right D.C.B.C.ing would work just as well as it does in the other direction if we could just remove that momentum-sapping pause.
Are you saying that the part I've highlighted in bold below does not happen?
The pause that causes you to lose your dash momentum when cancelling a dash into a backwards (maintained) crawl going right definitely exists.
The point of this topic is to hopefully find out what causes that pause, and figure out if it can be removed or not. I suspect that backwards-going-right D.C.B.C.ing would work just as well as it does in the other direction if we could just remove that momentum-sapping pause.
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Lightning
Ikesexual
Crawldashing is a bug, a bug that can't be fixed.
This was later turned into a fancy technique.
A bug was found in said technique (oh no!).
No solution can be offered because the technique is a bug.
Fixing a bug inside of a bug = not possible
Thus, bug stay in bug.
Flowers are beautiful.
-a badly written poem by Lightning