Ganondorf: Warlock Punch Remade.

[Thor]

Also, regarding your last statemen. If you stick around maybe you'll see that some changes are likening characters to their Vbrawl counterparts.

Yeah right, Samus is still gonna fall like a rock, and that's the only one I really care about (the rest are already close enough).

How often does the WP actually land in a serious match? How many characters are lined up with a 69 frame attack and actually fall perfectly into place? In the situation that someone does get WPed what are the chances of them winning even before it happens? Who really wants the ability to be instantly up a stock? And if you do want that, why not just play kirby and Bthrow someone off the stage following them up with dair spam? Unless he can't do that anymore. There are still pretty serious 0 death combos, but the ability to do it with a single attack should be limited to skillful, situational use. Link can do it with Mortal Draw, but that takes twice as long to prepare and hit than WP, so setting up with the completely random Deku Nut or 100% perfect boomerang max distance reversal is the only time it sees real use in 1v1s. Ganon doesn't have to work for that setup. He can just throw one out even after a jump, and he isn't locked into one direction.

WP does not function well. It's an attack that takes less time to hit with than a fully charged smash. But it ignores shields and instakills. It also kills Ganon if used in the air. I can't think of many other moves that do that, except maybe fully charging a few neutral Bs. This move currently does nothing unique for the game except make people laugh when they avoid it, or laugh when they get hit by it. It lends nothing to Ganon's kit either. If he can already kill in 4- 5 hits, why does he need something that kills in one? It doesn't offer control, or pressure. It's just another slow move in a kit of someone with a lot of slow moves.

What we feel he needs is something that will see use more than once every other match.

I've landed WP at least twice in serious matches. I also almost landed it back-to-back because I made the same read twice but was a few frames too slow. The chances of winning can still be high if they adjust (SD at 0% and win, it's like an SD except many people are demoralized even more by it). I want the ability to instantly be up a stock, and that Kirby thing doesn't work because SDI, meteor cancelling, and Flaoc... please. WP is skillful and situational, as is the Mortal Draw [so they both OHKO]. And if you reverse it the WP takes even longer, giving even more time to dodge it.

It doesn't take less time to hit than all fully charged smashes, only slow ones (see MK dsmash, Pikachu dsmash, and ROB dsmash, among others, for dsmashes that hit faster than WP when fully charged) [since WP is 70 frames at last check]. It also ignores counters (goes through properly timed ones without setting them off, or so it seems from my testing), but if you can't roll or airdodge you should be getting hit by it, and the 70 frames you had to avoid it and didn't deserve fitting damage output. Jigglypuff. Laughter can be unique, and the move OHKOs, which is unique, and it makes awesome sounds and lets people increase that "Damage dealt" statistic by 666% instantly, which is also awesome and unique. It adds an OHKO to Ganondorf's moveset. Because KOing in 1 hit is more efficient than KOing in 4-5 (and he really usually needs like 6 or 7 moves unless he gets the perfect 5). It offers the ultimate freak-out. And it is the perfect amount of agonizing slow when your opponent goes from "I can avoid this" to "HOLY ****!"

I use Warlock Punch at least every match.

 

[Glyph]

Choo choo all aboard the random changes to good moves train, next stop Bad Decisionsville!

 

[The Concept]

Spoiler

 

[Kien]

Choo choo all aboard the random changes to good moves train, next stop Bad Decisionsville!

If you were a dancer, I bet you'd name your signature the dick move.

@Thor if the only change you care about returning to Vbrawl is Samus then it makes no sense for you to argue that that one character won't return to a familiar state while others are on the route.

 

[Glyph]

As soon as you guys start giving real reasons for changing moves I'll stop calling you guys morons for it.

 

[Thor]

@Thor if the only change you care about returning to Vbrawl is Samus then it makes no sense for you to argue that that one character won't return to a familiar state while others are on the route.

Are you saying Samus will be returning to a familiar state, or just that it's a possibility that hasn't been thrown out?

I also don't know who you're referencing with this, but ok...

 

[Kien]

As soon as you guys start giving real reasons for changing moves I'll stop calling you guys morons for it.

Reason #1- Experimentation.

Were I you I wouldn't call the BR a team of morons and then ask for our help with your build. That is not a good way to gain support.

Thor, I wasn't talking about Samus.

 

[Glyph]

This isn't an instance that calls for experimentation. This ganon has been well established with only minor changes since practically the beginning of minus.

Let me clarify that moron thing a little. I'm not calling the whole BRoom that, or even any one person in particular. But anyone who's convinced that changing things because it would be different and not because the old move was problematic is not a particularly impressive decision maker.

Edit: this actually segways into a point I've been meaning to make for a while now. There's not a single character in minus that's been presented as 'done' since 2.x.6. Of course I understand and recognize that there's going to be things we miss sometimes and need changed, even after a long time (look at warlock punch). But this format of a constantly changing character designs makes it just ... not fun. Even if you see buffs to your characters, the time you spent with the old version is effectively negated since you'll need to work in new things.

This is a tricky subject, because there are still a lot of instances of characters I don't think are done just yet. But there's still a very sizeable chunk of the cast that could never see another edit and be fully viable. Ganon is one of these characters, and yet instead he's seen more radical changes that 90% of the cast.

Let me wrap this up in like a tl;dr type thing. Characters should feel like they're moving towards an end goal, a finished product. Throwing in random new stuff every single update conveys that the BRoom doesn't HAVE an end goal in mind at all, and thats why you feel so free to make radical changes all the time. Of course you guys can do things however you choose, but I'm just warning that its going to make these last months where we don't have to compete with smash4 full of people upset with changes and not as excited to even play your game.

 

[NEWB]

Very good point glyph. I was beginning to feel like minus never left the beta before max. While I am welcome to all changes that would can potentially make the game better, it makes it very hard to be on board with the devs when the goals are seemingly changing.

And to be fair glyph, I think a lot of this has happened because minus has seemingly dies and then resurrected a couple times with new project leaders. I can't be certain on that though.

 

[Glyph]

I'm even just referring to this current BRoom that's been working since like last year (I have no idea exactly when it switched over). 8+ months with no real end result is concerning.

 

[Pin Clock]

The BR itself switched over after the release of MAX 1.0, where I picked up the torch of project leader.

However, I carry only as much weight as the rest of my fellow developers, who constantly want to change around more things, thus preventing an end goal from forming. However, that should not mean we are not making progress towards one.

For example, the Ice Climbers, while still not popular, are still much more powerful and fun to play in Minus than they ever were before, with the new Nana Rescue mechanic that was incorporated in 3.5. ROB and Lucario are even more at a point where they can be called balanced.

My issue (and why I didn't really like the beta after it was over) with my fellow team is that they are still in beta mode when it comes to certain things, believing more experimentation should be had in many areas. The issue is that the beta updating weekly would fix things right up, but now that we're on monthy/bi-monthly updates, that format falls hard, and things need to be finalized more.

I will be making a conscious effort to make sure that the next version of Brawl Minus feels a little more "complete", and less like a beta-esque product.

 

[Sammi-husky]

I'm even just referring to this current BRoom that's been working since like last year (I have no idea exactly when it switched over). 8+ months with no real end result is concerning.

Glyph, to be fair you have no idea what the old BR was like so how can you even make the comparison? i wasn't either, but im not making statements like that specifically because i KNOW that i wasn't around back then.

 

[Glyph]

Glad to hear Pin, I really think that effort will have a positive impact on the next release.

Sammi I actually am friends with a handful of old school BRoomers and can confirm many of them intended 2.x.6 to be a complete and finished version. They reached their end goal and intended to leave it at that. Personally I'm very glad the whole Max movement happened and its yielded some spectacular improvements, but I gotta respect how they functioned as a unit to arrive at a destination.

 

[Momurderer]

When will Brawl Minus be finished? When the last of folks with programming knowledge leave the project for other things? When a bunch of new folks with programming knowledge take it for a wild ride and split the world into two groups, people who only acknowledge what Minus becomes when it reaches it's current goal and people who keep supporting some crazy never ending Minus? Will we stop global warming in time? Should we stop it? Where is HunterMech with an opinion on all this craziness?

All I can say for supporting my earlier support of mixing up WP is giving Ganon a more useable move. Take that how you want it. Kienamaru already gave some good reasons for 'experimenting' with this move. Yea Link does have an OHKO but it comes out of a taunt and is a whole extra move he was given along with all his B moves. I have a little trouble with approach in 3.Q Ganon. I also play my cousin who mains Toon Link which doesn't make approaching and spacing any easier but whatever. I think he's a pretty danged good TL, too.
I don't know if I want Ganon to change a whole lot or not or how much a change to WP would even change him. But somebody else has to think this a good idea... right?

 

[Glyph]

That question deserves a serious answer

 

[NEWB]

It can't really be answered or it already has been.

Pin said that though the mindset is still exploring new things that there is a goal being approached.

We also can't predict changes in uh, power. 2.6 as we have explored was a completed version of minus and arguably differs from today. By that logic, the minus that is currently being worked toward still has a way to go.

At least that is how I understand it.

 

[justadood]

y'all getting really worked up since i left o.o

 

[NEWB]

We've gotten to know each other on a more intimate level since you were here.