Ganondorf: Warlock Punch Remade.

[SAHunterMech]

Mech here.

I've got a bone to pick with the Lord of Evil. Several, actually. It's pretty much an entire skeleton sitting in the closet at this point. Now I know what you're thinking, 'oh noes, nerfz!', but hear me out; it's not nearly that simple. As of right now, this isn't official, it's just something Kien and I have been working on for the past week or so.

I don't like Ganon. There, I said it. What does this mean? It doesn't mean I think he's OP, or Sucky. This means that I think he... hasn't been fully minused yet. And I got tired of waiting around for someone else to do it.

There are... several major changes we have in the works, right now. What I am asking from you guys is your opinion on one of them. I will discuss the others another day, if you so desire, but for now, it's all about...


...NEEEEEUUUUUTRRRRAAAALLL B. Brace Your Jimmies.

I don't like the 666%. Is it because it's not Fun? Not by any means. It's a minus staple. It's been around for so long. But... I sat down, and I thought about the fundamentals of the move. Here's what it is:

It's a vanilla move, untouched save for damage output and the Gandouken (which I will get to in a minute). I'm sorry, but aren't we supposed to be better than that? Aren't we supposed to dig in deep, carve out our own interpretation of a move in a thorough manner, and make it the best it can be? This is a move that will never ever hit, except when it does, it will ruin the life of whoever the poor sap was that got hit by it .

If you're wondering if I'm talking about re-instating the cancel, no, I'm thinking more radically than that.
I'm talking about COMPLETELY changing the move. I'm talking about moving the 'hits everything' effect from U-tilt to this move, and tweaking it further .


Picture this: There are three rings now.

Ring 1 spans 1/2 of final destination. This ring only hits grounded opponents, deals 10%, and kills at 180%.

Ring2 spans 1/4 of final destination. This ring hits grounded and airborne opponents, deals 15%, and kills at 160%.

Ring 3 is the old hitboxes, just on his fist, like they've always been. The difference? The move deals 60%, and kills in two hits (or from 30%), not one.

But Why? Why Why Why Why Why ? Why remove the 666%? Because I believe it is fundamentally flawed. Let me level with you: Ganon Punch was a shitty move in vanilla. Technically, it still is in minus. Except someone went in there (I honestly don't know who), and said "This is such a shitty move, it's justified to OHKO." This move is never going to hit, but when it does, oh-ho, you'll be sorry.

Is this entertaining? Absolutely. But is it lazy? Sadly, yes. It's lazy on the part of the developers because it's a simple damage change and nothing more, and it's lazy on the part of the player, because it removes the idea of working for a KO, which is... kind of what fighters is all about. I understand that you timed that punch, you did that, you fought for that, but my tough question to you is, what else can you do with Ganon? Can you win a match without this move? Or do you let this move tip the scales of a match?


I'm not asking for much.. just 30% of your time. Just to prove that you can land some aerials, a smash, whatever. With Ganon, especially, it's hard to get in on your opponent, it really is, but once you do, it feels so good . I want a neutral B that is.. devastating, but becomes MORE devastating when YOU, the player, work for that kill.

Adding on to that, Gandouken is in a similar boat. It's got the same timing as Warlock Punch, and while it doesn't kill in one hit, it sure as hell sets up for Ganon to get a free hit. You can tap-DI out of this move, but you can't do it in time before Ganon thwomps you. So I say, let's change that. Ganon, in my opinion, is not about combos nor multi-hitting.

So I've adjusted Gandouken to deal a flat 16%, move faster, and kill you at 150%. I've also made it so that holding B makes the warlock punch animation speed up into the Gandouken release. This will FINALLY allow you to get some mix up with the timing of the move, and, factoring it in with the giant 'nuke', it will truly make neutral-b something to be reckoned with, while at the same time feeling more fair when you actually get hit by it.


With that, I close, and now it's time for you, you ganon players you, to tell me if I'm crazy or not. Do you want these changes, do you want nothing to do with them, or do you want some sort of frankensteined hybrid? Please, let me know.

(Yes, I play Ganon too.)

 

[Gold_TSG]

I will have to test the tweaks, but it sounds workable.

 

[The Concept]

I like it. I'd like to test it...more like be on the receiving end of the tests, for I don't play as the King of Evil.

 

[Bent 00]

I agree that 3.5 Warlock Punch -- especially the suicidal aerial version -- needs work. However, I'm not too keen on the sound of your proposed changes here. I'd be happy to test them out, though; seeing changes in action is different from just reading about them. I play as Ganondorf a LOT, almost as much as Falcon.

SAHunterMech, did you try out the two tweaked builds of 3.5 Warlock Punch I made?

I really like everything about 3.5 'Dorf as-is EXCEPT Warlock Punch.

Gandouken is great as-is. Holding B speeding up the animation is interesting, but only if I can still let go at the last second to Warlock Punch instead.

 

[NEWB]

I like and hate this.

When the devs made this move OHKO, I feel they did their job. They took a move that is or isn't broken and made it better. Just because it wasn't as better as you'd like doesn't change that.

However.... You make a very interesting point, much like bent he been making. It is better but still not useful. This alone doesn't sway me but when you say that OHKO moves take away from truly working for the KO, that makes me want to change the move because I agree with that.

Ganon three hit KOs people already, so giving him an OHKO doesn't make sense. A well spaced fair has always been better IMO. His punch is also only rewarding when you hit multiple foes in FFAs to me.

The problem I see is that the punch can't do utilt's job. Utilt is faster and it gives Ganon control over his opponent, which is really important for him.

I don't know what values you will do for knockback but I can already see punch spam now. I don't want to be at 90 or 100 percent and be unable to approach Ganon. That just isn't fun.

The only thing interesting to me is the new gandouken.

 

[Pin Clock]

The development team has settled on a position regarding Warlock Punch and its future changes. look forward to them pretty soon.

 

[Bent 00]

The development team has settled on a position regarding Warlock Punch and its future changes. look forward to them pretty soon.

One member of the dev team makes a topic asking for player feedback, then the boss comes in and says our thoughts don't matter; the decision has already been made. Wonderful.

Just don't make 'Dorf any worse, OK?

 

[Pin Clock]

One member of the dev team makes a topic asking for player feedback, then the boss comes in and says our thoughts don't matter; the decision has already been made. Wonderful.

Just don't make 'Dorf any worse, OK?

Actually, we all were discussing the changes intensely, and I hadn't noticed this thread had been made during that time. The final decision was assembled from the ideas proposed by Mech and other opinions within the development team.

The future of Ganondorf after this release will be judged based on player feedback, as we are indeed trying something new that I certainly hope you'll enjoy that takes plenty from what has been proposed in this thread.

 

[Sammi-husky]

One member of the dev team makes a topic asking for player feedback, then the boss comes in and says our thoughts don't matter; the decision has already been made. Wonderful.

Just don't make 'Dorf any worse, OK?

Bent, i don't care what your intentions are, the way you went about this sentence is extremely disrespectful. Just because your not satisfied with what is going doesn't mean you have to go out of your way to show many many times just HOW MUCH you dislike it. You not only were getting snippy and rude with a dev, but the actual project leader.

Im in no way speaking for anyone other than myself, but if you were speaking to me i would find the context in which you were speaking irritating, as it seems your entire point behind that post was to make someone look bad and or take shots at our decisions. I don't care who people talk to or what the subject is, so this isn't just because it was a dev. but i don't appreciate people being rude to anyone. Obviously people are free to speak their opinions and such, but i would appreciate it if our community treated each other nicely.

Of course i could just be misunderstanding the context of what you said, and if that is truly the case then i apologize. I just want people to get along.

In regards to what pin said, the future of dorf has already been decided as of what the next build will be. It has been discussed privately between mech and the rest of the dev team. Pin's comment was in no way directed towards this thread's discussion.

 

[Bent 00]

Forgive me for posting what actually happened.

SAHunterMech made this thread to gather feedback on his plans for changes to Warlock Punch.

Then Pin Clock came in and said that "The development team has settled on a position regarding Warlock Punch and its future changes." This implies that any opinions the non-dev players post here are pointless; the devs' decision has been made.

Surely you can understand why I felt a bit slighted.

 

[Glyph]

This is why BRoom discussions need to stay in the BRoom instead of posting a thread to the masses when you're not getting what you want

 

[NEWB]

But that really isn't the case since this only talking about next build.

 

[Sammi-husky]

I understand that bent, however i think you misunderstand. There is a 2 hour gap between when mech started this thread and when pin made that post. Obviously within those two hours, using feedback from this thread, we have come to a decision as to what we should do. With that in mind

The development team has settled on a position regarding Warlock Punch and its future changes. look forward to them pretty soon.

This seems like a fairly appropriate response to this thread. We are constantly speaking through skype about everything minus related. Most of us are on skype throughout the entire day, everyday, discussing the game. so it is very understandable that a decision would be made in a 2 hour period.

 

[Bent 00]

I understand that bent, however i think you misunderstand. There is a 2 hour gap between when mech started this thread and when pin made that post. Obviously within those two hours, using feedback from this thread, we have come to a decision as to what we should do.

Actually, SAHunterMech created this topic at 10:46 PM, and Pin Clock's first post in here was made at 11:34 PM. That's only 48 minutes later, not two hours. Only the most active members of this forum saw this thread before Pin effectively said "nevermind, we've already decided". It seems apparent that SAHunterMech is the only developer who wanted to hear the opinions of the "masses" on this issue at this time.

 

[Pin Clock]

Because while this thread was being created, and during the time it was posted before I saw it, the rest of us developers were in a heated debate about how it should work in our next version, and by the time I stumbled upon this thread, all of us have already come to a conclusion.

It was an instance of

This is why BRoom discussions need to stay in the BRoom instead of posting a thread to the masses

at its finest.

 

[Momurderer]

Hey first time posting. Would like to start by saying how much I appreciate the hard work and community support going into minus. Amazing. Now about the Warlock Punch... I like Mech's idea of the rings and am trying to wrap my head around the concept in advanced terms. Crazy. I know 3.Q has mad some good changes to Ganon and I really like them but the Warlock Punch is still the same ol same ol. I just wanted to spit out, what if it were made to be a charge up and save it type move like Donkey Kong's wind up punch combined with Samus and Lucario's ball of energy charging? The 666% damage could be removed and made to be somewhere even with DK's fully charged punch and some tweaks could be made to the Gandouken so it doesn't get too out of hand with charge saving and releasing. I dunno, just thought I would drop my 2 cents and see if anybody wants to pick up that filthy change. Thanks for the minus.

 

[Thor]

Momurderer, I don't think cloning DK's punch is a good idea - I'd rather have moves with more flavor.

I also liked the idea of the Warlock Punch as it was, and will be sad to see it change - the Master of Evil knows he is powerful enough to kill you in a single blow, but he rarely chooses to do so, and if he tries, be wary, for not even attempting to block it can save you.

Also, I opened a match once by landing this move (ask Darx's Bowser about it), so removing it will be like ripping that ability to instantly be up 4 stocks to 3 out of Minus, which I think is lame. And has Glyph has said elsewhere, this seems like changing a move to change a move, not because the current move doesn't function (it functions quite nicely if you ask me).

But as Bent 00 already said,

our thoughts don't matter; the decision has already been made. Wonderful.

At this rate I might have to go back and just download 3.3 with a few small changes - developers are now just making changes I find unfun that take away from the core of why I liked Minus in the first place - its' surprising similarity to Brawl in how many of the characters functioned.

 

[Gold_TSG]

No one said this version was the final version. Or that it was still happening. Kthnx

 

[Bent 00]

 

[Tybis]

 

[Bent 00]

Spoiler: HMM

Momurderer, I don't think cloning DK's punch is a good idea - I'd rather have moves with more flavor.

I also liked the idea of the Warlock Punch as it was, and will be sad to see it change - the Master of Evil knows he is powerful enough to kill you in a single blow, but he rarely chooses to do so, and if he tries, be wary, for not even attempting to block it can save you.

Also, I opened a match once by landing this move (ask Darx's Bowser about it), so removing it will be like ripping that ability to instantly be up 4 stocks to 3 out ofMinus, which I think is lame. And has Glyph has said elsewhere, this seems like changing a move to change a move, not because the current move doesn't function (it functions quite nicely if you ask me).

But as Bent 00 already said,

our thoughts don't matter; the decision has already been made. Wonderful.

At this rate I might have to go back and just download 3.3 with a few small changes - developers are now just making changes I find unfun that take away from the core of why I liked Minus in the first place - its' surprising similarity to Brawl in how many of the characters functioned.

 

[Kien]

Also, I opened a match once by landing this move (ask Darx's Bowser about it), so removing it will be like ripping that ability to instantly be up 4 stocks to 3 out of Minus, which I think is lame. And has Glyph has said elsewhere, this seems like changing a move to change a move, not because the current move doesn't function (it functions quite nicely if you ask me).

developers are now just making changes I find unfun that take away from the core of why I liked Minus in the first place - its' surprising similarity to Brawl in how many of the characters functioned.

How often does the WP actually land in a serious match? How many characters are lined up with a 69 frame attack and actually fall perfectly into place? In the situation that someone does get WPed what are the chances of them winning even before it happens? Who really wants the ability to be instantly up a stock? And if you do want that, why not just play kirby and Bthrow someone off the stage following them up with dair spam? Unless he can't do that anymore. There are still pretty serious 0 death combos, but the ability to do it with a single attack should be limited to skillful, situational use. Link can do it with Mortal Draw, but that takes twice as long to prepare and hit than WP, so setting up with the completely random Deku Nut or 100% perfect boomerang max distance reversal is the only time it sees real use in 1v1s. Ganon doesn't have to work for that setup. He can just throw one out even after a jump, and he isn't locked into one direction.

WP does not function well. It's an attack that takes less time to hit with than a fully charged smash. But it ignores shields and instakills. It also kills Ganon if used in the air. I can't think of many other moves that do that, except maybe fully charging a few neutral Bs. This move currently does nothing unique for the game except make people laugh when they avoid it, or laugh when they get hit by it. It lends nothing to Ganon's kit either. If he can already kill in 4- 5 hits, why does he need something that kills in one? It doesn't offer control, or pressure. It's just another slow move in a kit of someone with a lot of slow moves.

What we feel he needs is something that will see use more than once every other match.

Also, regarding your last statemen. If you stick around maybe you'll see that some changes are likening characters to their Vbrawl counterparts.

 

[Tybis]

OBJECTION!

THE DEFENDANT AIN'T RAD ENOUGH!
yes i'm having fun

How often does the WP actually land in a serious match?

Depends on the player and how gutsy they're trying to play I suppose.

How many characters are lined up with a 69 frame attack and actually fall perfectly into place?

Try using it to punish laggy moves or when you're doing hard reads. You're supposed to predict.

In the situation that someone does get WPed what are the chances of them winning even before it happens?

So you're saying only bad players will get hit by it? Alright then...

Who really wants the ability to be instantly up a stock?

People who like Warlock Punch?

There are still pretty serious 0 death combos, but the ability to do it with a single attack should be limited to skillful, situational use.

Idk, getting a "69 frame attack" that apparently only bad players will get hit with seems pretty skillful to me.

Link can do it with Mortal Draw, but that takes twice as long to prepare and hit than WP, so setting up with the completely random Deku Nut or 100% perfect boomerang max distance reversal is the only time it sees real use in 1v1s. Ganon doesn't have to work for that setup. He can just throw one out even after a jump, and he isn't locked into one direction.

Idunno why Link has an OHKO, but I thought you were just talking about how the move would never land in a "serious match"? If Ganon can't ever land WP in a serious match, then how is Link supposed to land his OHKO when it's supposedly harder? Your claims contradict each other if I'm reading into this correctly.

WP does not function well. It's an attack that takes less time to hit with than a fully charged smash. But it ignores shields and instakills.

Don't forget that Smashes don't have the insane startlag WP does, and the charge is OPTIONAL. Also, Fsmash's range is INSANE.

It also kills Ganon if used in the air. I can't think of many other moves that do that, except maybe fully charging a few neutral Bs.

Half of Jiggly's specials say KONNICHIWA, KIEN-SEMPAI. (no offense intended)

This move currently does nothing unique for the game except make people laugh when they avoid it, or laugh when they get hit by it. It lends nothing to Ganon's kit either. If he can already kill in 4- 5 hits, why does he need something that kills in one?

It's an OHKO move, which is something of a rarity? I'd think that'd count as unique in itself.

It doesn't offer control, or pressure. It's just another slow move in a kit of someone with a lot of slow moves.

Correct, it doesn't offer control, nor pressure. It's not just a slow move, it's the ultimate punish.

 

[Kien]

Try using it to punish laggy moves or when you're doing hard reads. You're supposed to predict.

So you're saying only bad players will get hit by it? Alright then...
People who like Warlock Punch?

Idk, getting a "69 frame attack" that apparently only bad players will get hit with seems pretty skillful to me.
Idunno why Link has an OHKO, but I thought you were just talking about how the move would never land in a "serious match"? If Ganon can't ever land WP in a serious match, then how is Link supposed to land his OHKO when it's supposedly harder? Your claims contradict each other if I'm reading into this correctly.

Don't forget that Smashes don't have the insane startlag WP does, and the charge is OPTIONAL. Also, Fsmash's range is INSANE.

Half of Jiggly's specials say KONNICHIWA, KIEN-SEMPAI.

It's an OHKO move, which is something of a rarity? I'd think that'd count as unique in itself.

Correct, it doesn't offer control, nor pressure. It's not just a slow move, it's the ultimate punish.

Instead of taking a year to quote and split all these things...

1. You'd have to start your move before they started theirs. It's about 90% of moves in minus that have less than 40 frames of endlag. I can see it punishing PK flash, a perfect blocked Spin Attack, and possibly a PK thunder and transform.

2. I never said only bad players. I'm saying if someone is trying to not get hit by the punch then they won't. If you're fighting someone who you can WP consistently, chances are you were going to win regardless of if you used the punch.

3. I'm not saying Link's is harder to land, I'm saying that his his more risky. It also only has a hitbox out for a single frame if I'm not mistaken.

4. If you charge them they do, and that's what I was talking about.

5. Not sure what you mean.

6. Not really that rare, OHKOs are never fun to be on the receiving end of in any game I've played. They're like the golden gun in 007 games, or infinites in fighters, air support in CoD, snipers in Halo... etc. The scenarios that they actually land offer an unfair advantage.

7. I guess it would be. Considering Ganon can keep someone on the defensive long enough to break their shields, this move is giving him KO. But I've never seen Ganon fight that aggressively.

 

[Pin Clock]

Warlock Punch works best as a fun cuhrayzee OHKO move. I'm kind of surprised that the move itself has been discussed this intensely since 3.3 was released and it's still going.

Not every move has to be super duper useful, and Ganon doesn't need Warlock Punch as a super duper useful move, since his kit already feels pretty much complete, asides from needing to fix the additions added in 3.Q. Warlock Punch as an OHKO move is great because of just how fun it feels, and if Ganon lands this risky risky move in a 1v1 Ganon deserves the kill. It's also guaranteed to get reactions when it happens because of the rarity of it landing.

Link's Mortal Draw is pretty much the same thing. Very risky move with a very satisfying feeling if it lands. I'd rather not lose that excitement on Ganondorf for something more "useful", as Ganondorf as a character already feels complete to me. There's nothing he really needs (especially to Warlock Punch) and changes to how the move works just feel like it would be changing it because we can, and I want to avoid having that happen again in our next update.

To sum it up, I would not like to see Warlock Punch changed because it's insanely fun, and as a wise girl once said, "Fun Things are Fun!"