Falco's Up+B

[Thor]

@Pin Clock

I'm not particularly eager to do this one, but I will since I think it'll make Minus more fun for most characters.

Now, Falco is a lot of fun, but there's a problem - he's ungimpable unless you just plain screw up [if this is supposed to be the point, then ignore the rest of the post and just state "He's not supposed to be gimpable, which is why his up+B is the way it is"]. A HUGE part of this is due to the ridiculousness that's his up+B - very few characters can challenge it in any reliable way for even scratch damage [really only projectiles and Bowser armor] and it's literally "press up+B not to die" if meteor-smashed (I was terrible back then, but here's a video of it, when his recovery was a little less obnoxious to deal with - go to about 1:01 in:
Now, here are the problems with Falco's up+b:
- Huge hitboxes on startup make it nearly impossible to contest on startup
- Huge hitboxes while travelling make it nearly impossible to contest while moving
- Low startup lag [or rather, somewhat high, but better protected than Fox] leaves one little time to position to intercept it
- Long distance covered makes gimping him impossible with good DI, outside of a missed meteor cancel
- Endlag from onstage helps make him at least able to be kicked off over and over, but the flames are hard to ledgeplank through so he can almost always go for ledge [this isn't really a problem, more on that later].

For the record, in all the Falco dittos I've played, I've landed exactly one dair on a Falco mid-firebird, and vs Falcon I've never ever been gimped. Ever. Same for Ganondorf and several others.

How to fix these problems? Here's the solution I offer:

Falco's up+b has two modes. Simply pressing B does an X-length Firebird, where he doesn't go nearly as far. MAYBE it has the same hitboxes and such around it, but it will move less overall distance [being slower]. However, HOLDING B will cause Falco to do the firebird in the video - he'll get flames, lose the flames while saying "peronsally, I prefer" and get flames and full-length firebird on "FIRE!"

What does this fix?

- Risk of intercepting - since Falco doesn't fly forever, he either has to be close to the stage (meaning he's easier to hit while in firebird startup) or has to go for the long range one, which means you can hit him on startup
- Slower movement speed in slow one makes him a bit easier to intercept, and more time to setup for intercepting the fast one (as before)

This addresses the first 3 issues. The 4th one is how many are designed [Wario] in that they can be intercepted offstage for extra percent or a KO from a move [ex Ganon fair], but not die, meaning Falco is no longer impervious to realistic attempts to hit him, only attempts to gimp him.

The 5th one appears to be part of Minus design [no ledgehogs, as shown by how Ganon and Falcon's recovery buffs work]. This is only a problem for Falco since his only recovery weakness is countered by this, BUT if we nerf firebird to be more option-selecty, it's not an issue.

NOTE: Firebird in video was altered because Jigglypuff's taunt made it impossible for Falco to recover [more or less], and why we have the current firebird. Two modes would avoid that issue.

X-distance could be Melee firebird, Brawl firebird, Brawl- 2.X.6 firebird, w/e.

Other cool idea: Pressing B (not holding) gives Melee firebird, a new onstage combo finisher (but the reduced range)! Then extended [hold B] firebird is unchanged in damage/etc., but has the increased startup with less protection.

 

[Thor]

@Pin Clock @Mawootad is this just "It's not a problem" or is this being discussed and the public isn't supposed to know or did this get missed in preparing for the stream or is this very gimpable and myself and everyone I play just sucks or what?

 

[Mawootad]

I personally think Falco's up-b is kind of dumb in terms of how unstoppable and how much height it covers (and I don't think I'm alone in that). We haven't been able to have a major discussion yet, though due to various IRL issues.

 

[Thor]

I personally think Falco's up-b is kind of dumb in terms of how unstoppable and how much height it covers (and I don't think I'm alone in that). We haven't been able to have a major discussion yet, though due to various IRL issues.

To clarify what I said a bit...

I think the height it covered was fine back when it had ridiculously long startup, but I pointed out the (legitimate) problem of trying to recover against Puff's taunt [like, that was freaking impossible outside of always having a jump to meteor cancel and making it back with side+b], and some others such as Bent didn't like him always saying "Personally, I prefer FIRE!" [which I loved]. Thus the huge startup was removed and Falco all of a sudden became nigh-ungimpable.

At the same time, Falco's a bird, and the point of the MAX era has been "You're hard-pressed to gimp him if he's dumb and almost inevitably going to fail if he's smart." [like Wario and Puff]. So I'd like to see him equipped with a shorter, easier-to-deal with firebird, and then have the huge one with his saying "Personally, I prefer FIRE!" so that it's a decision and also makes his recovery at least more easily contested, if not stopped.

My idea for making it Melee Firebird vs Minus firebird was just an idea since it could potentially be some sort of combo ender, although I realized I only do that with shine in Melee so I realized it wouldn't actually be that practical [maybe grounded dair -> firebird or something]. In any case, I think this is one of the few moves where some tweaks that function as nerfs won't upset people, even if the power curve is rising.

 

[Pin Clock]

It was discussed in our last dev stream, we all have reached the same conclusion: "Yeah it's pretty dumb and we really should have just removed the PERSONALLY I PREFER rather than actually buff the move."

 

[Thor]

It was discussed in our last dev stream, we all have reached the same conclusion: "Yeah it's pretty dumb and we really should have just removed the PERSONALLY I PREFER rather than actually buff the move."

That brings back the Jigglypuff problem though... unless that's not actually an issue [it certainly strikes me as one]?

Also why would you just remove the audio? That's the best part of the move! Could something be done like PM where holding the taunt button alters it to play the audio [like Falcon's knee] so that I can at least enjoy it when I'm playing?

 

[Mawootad]

Having different heights on Falco's recovery isn't actually trivial to code and results in stuff like accidentally activating the shorter version (or misjudging the height) and anti-climatically SD'ing. If there's going to be a short activation time and a long activation time version I think that the difference should be in the hitboxes protecting Falco, so that Falco can choose to be safe during the ascent or safe during the charge up, but not both.

 

[NEWB]

Yeah.....I actually fail to see how thor's suggestion would actually work. From what I understood:

The short distance version would have falco protected but move slowly so people can space carefully and gimp him.

The long distance version leaves him open on startup but then travels max distance.

I can't help but feel that no one would ever used the short distance version. Not only does the long distance version offer him safety but he really isn't vulnerable during the start up of fire bird, even without hitboxes. The long distance version travels far and he can purposely fall far out of range of gimping but in range of the ledge.

The only tweak I can see for the attack is just nerf the distance or nerf the safety. Minus wants at least decently safe recoveries on most characters while others sacrifice godly recovery for little safety, like rob and pit. I have to think that falco needs to just lose hitboxes on his upb.

 

[Thor]

Having different heights on Falco's recovery isn't actually trivial to code and results in stuff like accidentally activating the shorter version (or misjudging the height) and anti-climatically SD'ing. If there's going to be a short activation time and a long activation time version I think that the difference should be in the hitboxes protecting Falco, so that Falco can choose to be safe during the ascent or safe during the charge up, but not both.

Ok I understand it's not trivial to code. So I understand it very well might not occur. That said...

If you used my implementation, you'd be hard-pressed to get the short version accidentally - you'd have to release the button too early. It could also be an alt input or something [like press Z while Falco has flames around him to make it long fire bird] that's easy to do [just mash Z, or know to press it once].

If it was safety during ascent or safety during charge-up, safety during ascent would be used nearly all the time, since if it's safety during charge-up, the opponent can just delay for a bit and then punish him rising easily. Unless you mean change the hitboxes to be as they are on startup OR as they rise, not both, and weaker on the other half, which would be fine.

Yeah.....I actually fail to see how thor's suggestion would actually work. From what I understood:

The short distance version would have falco protected but move slowly so people can space carefully and gimp him.

The long distance version leaves him open on startup but then travels max distance.

I can't help but feel that no one would ever used the short distance version. Not only does the long distance version offer him safety but he really isn't vulnerable during the start up of fire bird, even without hitboxes. The long distance version travels far and he can purposely fall far out of range of gimping but in range of the ledge.

The only tweak I can see for the attack is just nerf the distance or nerf the safety. Minus wants at least decently safe recoveries on most characters while others sacrifice godly recovery for little safety, like rob and pit. I have to think that falco needs to just lose hitboxes on his upb.

The short version basically gives Brawl [or Melee, or Brawl Minus 2.x.6, or whatever] hitboxes to Firebird - he can easily be knocked out of startup, and intercepting him during travel is easy. The long version would be Firebird from original Max - massive startup and he's not protected at all during part of it, but the charge acts just like it currently does - long-range, hard to intercept. It makes Falco more gimpable when he's near the stage [since you can expect to hit him out of his travel, and if he loses the flames, punish], and far from the stage you know he has one option and can move to punish, either via going out there or just getting ready to ledgehog/attempt a risky intercept [or take stage control]. It fixes the problems because current Falco can't be easily intercepted regardless of where he is, which is the primary problem. And since the long version would only be safe(ish) at long range, it would make it more feasible to plank through it and gimp Falco or force him to land onstage and punish, while the short version would just be more interceptible as a whole.

Falco's up+B safety being nothing on startup not an issue? I don't think you've ever played Melee vs a semi-competent Fox... or even just Brawl Minus Fox dittos.

With Minus's high speeds, having only Fox-level protection [or less] is extremely vulnerable on Firebird. I know when I play Fox dittos with people in Minus, there is copious shine-spiking out of Firefox going on [as well as dairing him out of Firefox], which would be much easier with this sort of tweak.

The falling low is a mixup - if you go that low, nearly everyone can follow you down there, and others can prepare to try to time a ledgeplank to make you land onstage, where Falco's terrible aerial mobility and high endlag make him easy pickings.

Short version would be highly useful if just below the ledge - the long version gives someone time to position a dair or bair. I know I got dair'd or bair'd several times when getting used to the long charge-up time [I then used it like 64 PKT2 on Ness, simply using it very far away to minimize interruptions - now I'm just lazy because it's so safe].

No hitboxes on his up+B would make Falco's recovery like Rosalina and Luma's, which is to say very, very fragile and highly susceptible to interception - not what we want.

Also Lucario's recovery is neither [it's godly and safe], same for MK/Puff/Kirby/Wario (also I think Pit can airdodge and attack out of his recovery then still use up part of his remaining time)

 

[Glyph]

Why not just reduce the size of the hitbox that protects him when he's charging it to make him easier to gimp instead of solutions that take small novels to explain?

 

[Thor]

Why not just reduce the size of the hitbox that protects him when he's charging it to make him easier to gimp instead of solutions that take small novels to explain?

That fixes at least one of the problems. Would be fairer than how it works now.

EDIT: @Mawootad I came up with the alternate up+B idea because Kienamaru [I think it was Kien] made an alternate version of dash attack [and lightning kicks] based on holding or not holding the button.

I know you said it isn't trivial AND I know I'm not a coder, but given that I did take a comp-sci course [coding stuff in Eclipse editor for Java], could the code look something like [in English, not in code here]:

(Assuming Falco up+B normal charge up is 45 frames and alternate charge up is 120 frames - totally made up numbers)
Falco up+b
Frames 1-39: fire hitboxes
frame 40: fire hitboxes, check if B is input on this frame (same as Gerudo dragon but different timescale??? or same as direction check) [I'd think it could be a hold since we can hold jabs and for Thunderhand]
If B not input
Frame 40-44: more fire hitboxes
frame 45: fire hitboxes and set direction (or whenever it's set, we make the input earlier for alternating firebird)
frame46-X [whatever X is] - motion, etc.
If B is input:
frame 40-45: fire hitboxes
frame 46-120: "Personally, I prefer"
frame 120: set direction
frame 121-X: "FIRE" and motion

I'm not saying this is easy or even possible, but it is a question I think I can at least ask [even if you choose not to answer].

 

[Mawootad]

The coding isn't a deal breaker by any means, but it's more complicated because it's a special. A brawl move is composed of two parts, an action and any number of linked subactions (or for specials generally several groups of linked actions and subsections). The action controls sub/action switching, air state, and various other technical details. The subaction handles hitboxes, gfx, sfx, and similar things. For the most part, motion is only ever controlled directly by PSA in aerials; motion is generally handled by (fighter specific) assembly code in sora_melee.rel or the relevant ft_fighter.rel file that runs based on the current action. Motion code does read constants off of the .pac files, but these are just constants, you need specialized code to modify them in game on the fly.

 

[Kien]

Actually Maw, i think what Thor is suggesting wouldn't be difficult to modify, even as a special. I think a momentum event if the requirement is met would be all it takes.

 

[Thor]

I'm glad to see my suggestion is being considered, even if it ultimately can't/doesn't work out or isn't used, and I appreciate the explanation of the issue as well.

 

[Mawootad]

Actually Maw, i think what Thor is suggesting wouldn't be difficult to modify, even as a special. I think a momentum event if the requirement is met would be all it takes.

You could add or take away the tiny jump at the end (after the fire dash portion) using momentum but that wont be enough to make a version with longer startup worth using unless it's an absolutely massive jump. A fsm might work, but given the coding probably not. The only thing that will definitely work is a new gct code, and I could probably write and test that in like a half hour given that I've already done essentially the same thing in a different code (if I weren't feeling super lazy right now I'd do so too). That said, I still think that just giving Falco the option between a safe startup or a safe dash by doing hitbox tweaks would be the best way of fixing fire bird, as that probably fixes Falco being totally ungimpable without being hugely impacting in a non-competitive setting (where newer players may not be aware that they can have a much longer recovery by holding a button).

 

[NEWB]

I personaly don't like the idea of having two variants of an upb. I would prefer a single upb as that's simpler and intuitive.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You could just, ya know, not make him ungimpable at all. Just a thought.

 

[Tybis]

You could just, ya know, not make him ungimpable at all. Just a thought.

BABY STEPS, GOLD.

 

[Thor]

You could just, ya know, not make him ungimpable at all. Just a thought.

Birdy gotta fly.

And if that's a design choice, we either need to improve his neutral tools outside of the gun [since really his neutral game is very fragile if you don't have that blaster shot space - take away the gun and I think Falcon wins neutral AND punish that's not gimping, and on stages with platforms neutral is probably evenish even with the gun] (although neutral tweak is easy - change fair to current nair, nair to Melee nair, now Falco doesn't have dumb fair chains and his neutral is better) or at least make the other characters not ungimpable as well [Puff is moving there, but Wario and Lucario].

Also it's not technically ungimpable, it's just obscenely difficult - I have landed a dair in the ditto, and I believe [am not positive] that Falcon can get dair to trade with startup of up+B or use uair as Falco rises past him, it's just so stupidly difficult that contesting it is often a better option. Link's bombs are also an exceptional gimping tool vs Firebird [bomb dair or bomb nair]. Others have other options as well, they're just not practical.

 

[Gold_TSG]

When you can count the number of gimpers to his up b on one hand, something is wrong. That goes for everyone.

 

[Thor]

When you can count the number of gimpers to his up b on one hand, something is wrong. That goes for everyone.

Pit's arrows, ROB's gyros + lasers, Toon Link's also got bombs, Lucario aura sphere, Wario has his crate, I'm pretty sure Peach's strong turnips work, Ness has PK flash and PK fire, Yoshi's Eggs, Snake's grenades, Marth's dair, DDD's waddles, ... there are more, it's just that most of these aren't very practical and/or have to be finished with another setup [ex: Snake grenade -> fair].

 

[NEWB]

Which kinda proves gold's point...And some of those only work if falco uses his upb to recover horizontally for some reason, like robs lasers DDD's waddles.

Sonic's spring should work I believe. Maybe Luigi thunderbrand? Zamus offstage sideb lol.

 

[Thor]

Which kinda proves gold's point...And some of those only work if falco uses his upb to recover horizontally for some reason, like robs lasers DDD's waddles.

Sonic's spring should work I believe. Maybe Luigi thunderbrand? Zamus offstage sideb lol.

ROB can angle his lasers and DDD can angle or carefully space waddles.

Luigi fireballs may or may not work, Zamus has all b moves [I think even her down+B kick], Sonic spring is a yes. Bowser anything with armor works beautifully. Samus power bombs might work, her homing missiles may as well, and she can run off and charge shot him [which is the idea with Lucario's aura sphere]. Zelda's din's fire would work to set him up for a kick or ftilt or fsmash or whatever, and she does have dair. Sheik needles may work, and she could certainly chain offstage into double jump fair.

Almost all of these only work on startup though.

 

[NEWB]

Falco can avoid most of these situations by doing a sideb first to get closer to beneath the edge so that no projectiles can even hit him. If he is so low that a sideb would kill him from endlag, then he is too low for many of these punishes anyway. Some can still work but that is only some and these are still highly situational, whereas other recoveries can be punished far more consistently.

We can go ahead and talk about more things that could work but it doesn't really change the fact that it's too safe.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Falco can avoid a majority of those by recovering low or below a ledge lip like FD. ROB can't shoot his laser through the stage, so that makes no difference. Honestly most of your examples are for a Falco that doesn't recover low.